Atmos without side speakers?

[Cpt.America]

ATMOS noob here. I know almost nothing. Is it possible... or "worth it", to change my 5.1 setup to a 7.1, and have those two additional channels be height speakers mounted in the ceiling INSTEAD of side speakers? Is that still atmos without side speakers? My video room is my Livingroom, and I can mount speakers in the ceiling of course, but not the sides.

Thanks for schoolin a noob.

 

[shadyJ]

Yes, that is a 5.1.2 system, and is supported by every receiver that supports Atmos.

 

[Cpt.America]

Yes, that is a 5.1.2 system, and is supported by every receiver that supports Atmos.

The 3rd decimal represents ceiling? or represents atmos specific speakers? What is a FULL Atmos setup, 7.2.4?

 

[shadyJ]

Atmos can scale to a pretty high number of channels. In theaters, you can have 64 speakers. At home, I dunno. I think Storm audio has a 20 channel processor, and that will get you 9.4.6, meaning 9 bed channels, 4 individually calibrated subs, and 6 height speakers.

 

[tmurnin]

THe first digit is your main stage, the second is the number of subwoofers, the third is your Atmos.

A "full" Atmos setup is represented by 4 in-ceiling speakers- that can be either 5.1.4, 7.1.4, or beyond if you go crazy. The room size really dictates whether you need more than a 5.1.4 system. For the most part, I would rather spend $$ on 5 great main speakers and dual subwoofers with 4 decent ceiling speaker for Atmos than sacrifice quality and get 7 or 9 channels in the main stage. I think a great 5.2.4 system is perfect for most rooms. That said, if budget is no issue, go for it.

 

[tmurnin]

Atmos can scale to a pretty high number of channels. In theaters, you can have 64 speakers. At home, I dunno. I think Storm audio has a 20 channel processor, and that will get you 9.4.6, meaning 9 bed channels, 4 individually calibrated subs, and 6 height speakers.

I guess that's true - I've never seen anyone have more than 4 Atmos channels, but I guess it's possible if you go nuts and have a huge space.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

ATMOS noob here. I know almost nothing. Is it possible... or "worth it", to change my 5.1 setup to a 7.1, and have those two additional channels be height speakers mounted in the ceiling INSTEAD of side speakers? Is that still atmos without side speakers? My video room is my Livingroom, and I can mount speakers in the ceiling of course, but not the sides.

Thanks for schoolin a noob.

Trying to follow here. Do you have regular(side) surrounds currently? If you do, then yes just add tops/heights. If they’re on the back wall, it will still work but to the sides is much better Ime.
FWIW, 5.x.4 is better than 7.x.2. In both cases you should have some room behind the LP. This is also better to smooth out bass response but that’s a different rabbit hole.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I guess that's true - I've never seen anyone have more than 4 Atmos channels, but I guess it's possible if you go nuts and have a huge space.

.6 tops is becoming common. But only a couple flagship AVR’s support it. Trinnov makes a processor that can support 32 and a number of configurations. So something like 9.1.6(with wides) is easy. But definitely not cheap!!!
The trinnov thread on avs is two miles long but full of good info.

Trinnov | 36-Channel Reference Immersive Sound AV Processor

Since 2014, Trinnov's Altitude32 leads the AV Processor market to higher levels of performance and sustainability with Dolby Atmos, DTS:X Pro and Auro-3D

www.trinnov.com

 

[Cpt.America]

Trying to follow here. Do you have regular(side) surrounds currently? If you do, then yes just add tops/heights. If they’re on the back wall, it will still work but to the sides is much better Ime.
FWIW, 5.x.4 is better than 7.x.2. In both cases you should have some room behind the LP. This is also better to smooth out bass response but that’s a different rabbit hole.

No, the left side of my room is open, and the right side is a giant picture window and outside doors. I currently have an impressive 5.1, and my rear surround are mounted behind the couch in the top corner of the room where the wall meets the ceiling, pointing down towards the couch.

My current AVR is an Elite from 2009, so it doesn't do ATMOS, but I may be able to upgade in the future. I was just wondering if I ONLY added two ceiling speakers (or 4?) without using sides... is that any better than running 5.1. (just in case side speakers were FAR more important than tops from atmos.. i don't know much about it)

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

No, the left side of my room is open, and the right side is a giant picture window and outside doors. I currently have an impressive 5.1, and my rear surround are mounted behind the couch in the top corner of the room where the wall meets the ceiling, pointing down towards the couch.

My current AVR is an Elite from 2009, so it doesn't do ATMOS, but I may be able to upgade in the future. I was just wondering if I ONLY added two ceiling speakers (or 4?) without using sides... is that any better than running 5.1. (just in case side speakers were FAR more important than tops from atmos.. i don't know much about it)

Well the short answer is yes. The problem in your room is that the surrounds(just for clarity rear surrounds are in 7ch systems) are already at the ceiling height. For Atmos to really work well, you need a bed layer(the 5ch) and the height layer. 2, 4 or 6 speakers. The two layers use each other to phantom image objects around the room. That’s not possible if they’re in the same plane. So I would recommend lowering the current surrounds, or foregoing Atmos. Also, saw you got some new ultras. Niiiice!!!!!

 

[Cpt.America]

Well the short answer is yes. The problem in your room is that the surrounds(just for clarity rear surrounds are in 7ch systems) are already at the ceiling height. For Atmos to really work well, you need a bed layer(the 5ch) and the height layer. 2, 4 or 6 speakers. The two layers use each other to phantom image objects around the room. That’s not possible if they’re in the same plane. So I would recommend lowering the current surrounds, or foregoing Atmos. Also, saw you got some new ultras. Niiiice!!!!!

Yeah, the problem is BEHIND the couch, is a piano, a hallway going down to my kitchen, and bookshelves. It's an impressive room, but having speakers permanently setup behind the couch isn't feasable, and I detest setting speakers up on stands, rolling out speaker cable, then putting it all away again just to setup the 5.1 for a movie. The desire is to have it ready to go whenever we want and look clean (it feels a little cheesy having stands temporarily setup for a movie, which is why we are going to set the surrounds up in the rear ceiling corner, and I have to keep the misses as happy as possible).... getting wires to the backwall is also an issue, not including having no place (except up in the corners) to mount speakers.

Thanks for the help... I am really not disappointed in 5.1 at all. It still feels pretty subversive to me. Just trying to see what my options are. And you say that rear surrounds are for 7.1... I'm a tad confused. I DO have a 7.1 receiver, but only 5 speakers. Should I be running my rear 2 speakers set as rear surround? Or... is it better to have them set as something like left rear and right rear? (i forget what they are called)

Here is the room, pre-SVS speakers. You can see the bookshelves, the piano, and just make out the hallway in-between them that leads away towards the right.

And yes... I went with an entire new speaker setup. I know they aren't the Cadillac of the boutique speaker world (i've seen people here spend $5k on a single speaker), but they really fit the bill perfectly for my budget and should be quite the upgrade from the old eD 300 + polk setup.

 

[mazersteven]

Lots of reflection. Lots of hard surfaces

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah, the problem is BEHIND the couch, is a piano, a hallway going down to my kitchen, and bookshelves. It's an impressive room, but having speakers permanently setup behind the couch isn't feasable, and I detest setting speakers up on stands, rolling out speaker cable, then putting it all away again just to setup the 5.1 for a movie. The desire is to have it ready to go whenever we want and look clean (it feels a little cheesy having stands temporarily setup for a movie, which is why we are going to set the surrounds up in the rear ceiling corner, and I have to keep the misses as happy as possible).... getting wires to the backwall is also an issue, not including having no place (except up in the corners) to mount speakers.

Thanks for the help... I am really not disappointed in 5.1 at all. It still feels pretty subversive to me. Just trying to see what my options are. And you say that rear surrounds are for 7.1... I'm a tad confused. I DO have a 7.1 receiver, but only 5 speakers. Should I be running my rear 2 speakers set as rear surround? Or... is it better to have them set as something like left rear and right rear? (i forget what they are called)

Here is the room, pre-SVS speakers. You can see the bookshelves, the piano, and just make out the hallway in-between them that leads away towards the right.

And yes... I went with an entire new speaker setup. I know they aren't the Cadillac of the boutique speaker world (i've seen people here spend $5k on a single speaker), but they really fit the bill perfectly for my budget and should be quite the upgrade from the old eD 300 + polk setup.

It’s a nice looking room for sure. As mazer pointed out I’m sure reflective. Also, I would recommend getting the center channel on that top shelf closer to the screen. That should keep voices sounding like they’re tied more to the screen. Might help with any floor interactions too. Would definitely consider a big rug.
And don’t feel bad about the ultras. They’re really good speakers.
For surrounds... In a 5ch system they’re only referred to as surround speakers(surrounds). In 7ch they’re still called surrounds, but the added speakers are called rear surrounds, or back surrounds.
So with a 7ch avr, the surround speakers(like yours) would connect to the “surround” terminals on the AVR. Then the “rear surround” terminals would be left empty, or possibly used for zone two or three, or front height.
To your question, yes this should sound much better than being connected to the “rear surround” terminals since they’ll receive much more content and should tie to the front stage and on screen action better. If they’re connected to the “surround” terminals then leave them that way.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Thanks for the help... I am really not disappointed in 5.1 at all. It still feels pretty subversive to me. Just trying to see what my options are. And you say that rear surrounds are for 7.1... I'm a tad confused. I DO have a 7.1 receiver, but only 5 speakers. Should I be running my rear 2 speakers set as rear surround? Or... is it better to have them set as something like left rear and right rear? (i forget what they are called)

Here is the room, pre-SVS speakers. You can see the bookshelves, the piano, and just make out the hallway in-between them that leads away towards the right.

Surrounds are on the sides and rear surrounds in the back. You will miss some of the 4K movie sounds if you don't have both. I really like it when I hear a door slam in the back or an explosion coming from rear to front. You could consider in wall rear surround speakers but if you've never heard that track maybe you won't miss it?

 

[Cpt.America]

That is

It’s a nice looking room for sure. As mazer pointed out I’m sure reflective. Also, I would recommend getting the center channel on that top shelf closer to the screen. That should keep voices sounding like they’re tied more to the screen. Might help with any floor interactions too. Would definitely consider a big rug.
And don’t feel bad about the ultras. They’re really good speakers.
For surrounds... In a 5ch system they’re only referred to as surround speakers(surrounds). In 7ch they’re still called surrounds, but the added speakers are called rear surrounds, or back surrounds.
So with a 7ch avr, the surround speakers(like yours) would connect to the “surround” terminals on the AVR. Then the “rear surround” terminals would be left empty, or possibly used for zone two or three, or front height.
To your question, yes this should sound much better than being connected to the “rear surround” terminals since they’ll receive much more content and should tie to the front stage and on screen action better. If they’re connected to the “surround” terminals then leave them that way.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it. Yes, the room is a bit lively, but i do have one baffle on the only flat surface on the rear wall, 3 more baffles going up on the TV wall (but not till I finalize my LR position), and we have a huge 9'circular hand woven rug coming for the floor.

I was running my rears in the "surround" channel, and the "surround back" were empty.

 

[Cpt.America]

It’s a nice looking room for sure. As mazer pointed out I’m sure reflective. Also, I would recommend getting the center channel on that top shelf closer to the screen. That should keep voices sounding like they’re tied more to the screen. Might help with any floor interactions too. Would definitely consider a big rug.
And don’t feel bad about the ultras. They’re really good speakers.
For surrounds... In a 5ch system they’re only referred to as surround speakers(surrounds). In 7ch they’re still called surrounds, but the added speakers are called rear surrounds, or back surrounds.
So with a 7ch avr, the surround speakers(like yours) would connect to the “surround” terminals on the AVR. Then the “rear surround” terminals would be left empty, or possibly used for zone two or three, or front height.
To your question, yes this should sound much better than being connected to the “rear surround” terminals since they’ll receive much more content and should tie to the front stage and on screen action better. If they’re connected to the “surround” terminals then leave them that way.

I knew the measurements of the subs... I'm still not sure I was prepared for what came out of the boxes. I don't have any furniture, or the baffles, or the rugs.. and the room is a mess from getting everything up and running to test last night.. but holy hell. My 82" screen looks small now.