Denon, center spread

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The 8500 isn't new altho it may get upgrades others as old won't get (Denon is now on the x700 series....)
 
D

depechefan

Audioholic
Having just installed the latest firmware I can reveal that Center Spread is also available on the 8500 :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Having just installed the latest firmware I can reveal that Center Spread is also available on the 8500 :)
I had a firmware update come through for my Marantz 7705 this evening. That included center spread. Personally I think Dolby were correct to discontinue it. I did a careful A/B comparison this evening and activating center spread is a definite quality spoiler. It cancelled the wonderful depth of field I have on my rig. I have an excellent sound stage using the Dolby upmixer, with excellent spread and imaging across the whole sound stage. I do not have to increase the center channel at all for excellent dialog and the sound from the front three speakers sounds identical, so I have a seamless front stage. It may work for some rigs, but for me it is a quite definite downgrade.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I thought I replied to this. Center Spread should only be used when upmixing 2CH music, NOT movies or TV shows. I've never heard a system where center spread sounded better off for 2CH music. It tends to dump too much into the center collapsing the Left/Right soundstage.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Never played 2 channel music in surround mode because, to me, it destroyed the front stage. Used center spread on my recently retired AVR and was actually impressed by it. It balanced the vocals across the LCR very nicely.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I thought I replied to this. Center Spread should only be used when upmixing 2CH music, NOT movies or TV shows. I've never heard a system where center spread sounded better off for 2CH music. It tends to dump too much into the center collapsing the Left/Right soundstage.
Well, it is the exact opposite on my rig. I do not find that the center is too loud. My rig shows center spread dumps too much center into the left and right channels. On my rig leaving everything alone in the upmixer after level calibration gives a beautiful sound stage with convincing depth. When you engage center spread this effect is lost and the sound field moves forward.

As I said this new upmixer on the 7705 produces an incredible sound field that is now truly 3D if you set it up correctly. I do believe now though, that you can not have a tonally inferior speakers anywhere anymore. They all have to be excellent.

I do think though that mic techniques need to change to take maximum the advantage of this. I note that the effect of this new upmixer is greatest with intensity difference recordings rather then phase difference recordings. By this I mean keeping to as pure as possible Blumlein technique is by far the best. Most of the recordings are made follow that precept.

I have really been enjoying the superbly recorded recitals of the Scott Brothers duo. Most are organ recitals for this time. Jonathan is the organist, his brother Tom sometimes joining him at the piano. Tom does the audio and video. I note he uses pure Blumlein. The recordings are fantastic. This week was on a lovely instrument at the Royal Norther College of Music. All he divisions localized perfectly and even the divisions at the top sounded above the others. Incredible. This reinforces my view that time shifts in speakers are headed to be a greater problem. I have known this from my recordings. Obviously if the recording can correctly preserve the time relationships then the better these upmixers can recreate the original sound field in your room. I have NEVER believed speakers playing fast and loose with time was a good thing. I know it to be a bad thing, and now more than ever it is time to address the issue.

So bring on active speakers, with DSP time alignment. That has to be the next step forward.
 
little wing

little wing

Audioholic General
I agree, Center Spread on when using DSU for two channel music for sure. The dialogue from my center is awesome so I don't need to increase volume level for the center at all. Only Issue I have is, you have to go fairly deep into the menu to turn off Center Spread for movies. But that's not really a big deal..
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
What new upmixer? I do know what upmixer means, just not sure what is "new", is it from the last FW update? Thank you.
It came with my 7705. When playing a 2 channel recording, if you press pure, you get two channel stereo. If you press music, then you get these onscreen options.

Dolby Audio-Digital surround.

DTS Neural-X

Auro 2D surround

Multi channel stereo.

Virtual.

When you engage them the speakers activated show up in the front panel of the 7705

Of those I have tried the top three. The Dolby up mixer is by far the best and very convincing and natural. It is just amazingly good. It up mixes 2 channel stereo to 7.2.4 in a very convincing manner.

DTS is fair, but seems to have some harshness to it.

Now I never included a "Voice of God speaker for the Auro 2D and I find that one very unconvincing. The Dolby-Audio-Digital is superb.

So good that in the organ I sighted in another post, where the division playing the flute part is place to my right in a convincing manner with the right front and right surround becoming in effect a stereo pair. The reed paying the melody is dead ahead. The uncanny thing about this mixer, is that not only does it have good localization 360 in the room, but also from floor to ceiling.

This was the undoing of a couple of my JW ceiling speakers. I was listening to the Organ Prom with no audience in the RAH on August 29. Jonathan Scott gave a bravura performance. He even played his organ transcription of the Organ Symphony by Saint-Sens. He played the organ solos and the orchestra parts at the same. At some periods he played all four manuals and the pedals at once, using the thumbs down technique.

Well the BBC announcer said that all the paneling in the hall was shaking and her chest was vibrating. Well you know my insanity. I had to reproduce that here, and could. You could clearly tell you were under the huge dome of the RAH, and hear its reverberation. Absolutely stunning. Anyhow the "Voice of Jupiter" damaged a couple of my vintage JW modules when Hollywood could not. That organ by the way when commissioned in 1871, was powered by two enormous steam engines.
It is a very loud instrument when called on. Jonathan Scott said it used to have a health and safety warning at the console, but organists would pinch them!

Anyhow I have replaced the JW with their latest successor from Mark Audio. They take three times the power. In the 0.25 cu.ft sealed boxes they have an f3 of 90 Hz, and extend to 25KHz, with a response smoother than most tweeters.

The performance is still on iPlayer and I think will be for another 8 months or so. I do have the audio from it on the hard drive of my DAW in any case. It is by far the best total work out of any system.

But the bottom line is, I have no idea what the Dolby engineers have done to create this astonishing effect. I can attest, that it works, and works well. It also up mixes Dolby 5.1 and 7.1 to 7.2.4 and I suppose 7.2.6. I have four ceiling speakers which I think is optimal for this room. The DTS does the same thing with DTS material.

As I have said before all the speakers need to be capable and very accurate to get optimal effect. For this to work, any old speaker for surrounds, rear backs and ceilings will not cut it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It came with my 7705. When playing a 2 channel recording, if you press pure, you get two channel stereo. If you press music, then you get these onscreen options.

Dolby Audio-Digital surround.

DTS Neural-X

Auro 2D surround

Multi channel stereo.

Virtual.

When you engage them the speakers activated show up in the front panel of the 7705

Of those I have tried the top three. The Dolby up mixer is by far the best and very convincing and natural. It is just amazingly good. It up mixes 2 channel stereo to 7.2.4 in a very convincing manner.

DTS is fair, but seems to have some harshness to it.

Now I never included a "Voice of God speaker for the Auro 2D and I find that one very unconvincing. The Dolby-Audio-Digital is superb.

So good that in the organ I sighted in another post, where the division playing the flute part is place to my right in a convincing manner with the right front and right surround becoming in effect a stereo pair. The reed paying the melody is dead ahead. The uncanny thing about this mixer, is that not only does it have good localization 360 in the room, but also from floor to ceiling.

This was the undoing of a couple of my JW ceiling speakers. I was listening to the Organ Prom with no audience in the RAH on August 29. Jonathan Scott gave a bravura performance. He even played his organ transcription of the Organ Symphony by Saint-Sens. He played the organ solos and the orchestra parts at the same. At some periods he played all four manuals and the pedals at once, using the thumbs down technique.

Well the BBC announcer said that all the paneling in the hall was shaking and her chest was vibrating. Well you know my insanity. I had to reproduce that here, and could. You could clearly tell you were under the huge dome of the RAH, and hear its reverberation. Absolutely stunning. Anyhow the "Voice of Jupiter" damaged a couple of my vintage JW modules when Hollywood could not. That organ by the way when commissioned in 1871, was powered by two enormous steam engines.
It is a very loud instrument when called on. Jonathan Scott said it used to have a health and safety warning at the console, but organists would pinch them!

Anyhow I have replaced the JW with their latest successor from Mark Audio. They take three times the power. In the 0.25 cu.ft sealed boxes they have an f3 of 90 Hz, and extend to 25KHz, with a response smoother than most tweeters.

The performance is still on iPlayer and I think will be for another 8 months or so. I do have the audio from it on the hard drive of my DAW in any case. It is by far the best total work out of any system.

But the bottom line is, I have no idea what the Dolby engineers have done to create this astonishing effect. I can attest, that it works, and works well. It also up mixes Dolby 5.1 and 7.1 to 7.2.4 and I suppose 7.2.6. I have four ceiling speakers which I think is optimal for this room. The DTS does the same thing with DTS material.

As I have said before all the speakers need to be capable and very accurate to get optimal effect. For this to work, any old speaker for surrounds, rear backs and ceilings will not cut it.
Thanks, I have those options too but I didn't think those were the newly added back ones. The "new" feature they referred to is the center spread thing. Apparently that only shows up in the menu if you are playing a Dolby source, I will try it time permitting.

Edit: Just tried it. It is true that you only see "center spread" when you play a two channel source, select Dolby surround. You will find the option for "on/off" under the audio/Surround Parameter. If you select any other sound mode the feature would not show up.

I can't say I like it better yet, time will tell. The effect is audible for sure.
 
Last edited:
D

depechefan

Audioholic
I like center spread for 2 channel music. For the first time I actually prefer some tracks upmixed. I don't know if anything else has changed with the recent firmware update but it seems to me that the DSU is really good now. So very happy with the way my receiver works now. Only wish it could handle multi channel DSD over network...
 
L

Lattiboy

Audioholic Intern
I don’t think I’ve gotten the update on my 3600. Can anybody confirm how I would check? No center spread option on anything.
 
D

depechefan

Audioholic
I believe it's under Audyssey, surround parameter. Should be available as an option when you play 2 channel music. Not if it is a surround signal.
 
L

Lattiboy

Audioholic Intern
I took a screenshot of my firmware version, no idea where the current one for the 3600 can be found. Denon is very weird about this!

C77F9719-4861-4EA1-BA7A-FA96B11BB320.jpeg
 
L

Lattiboy

Audioholic Intern
I believe it's under Audyssey, surround parameter. Should be available as an option when you play 2 channel music. Not if it is a surround signal.
I thought it could be used with any non-DTS signal. Perhaps I’m wrong here; but that’s what I recall and what I think Gene said.
 
D

depechefan

Audioholic
I could be wrong. I don't really see the point for multichannel content though... Have you tried to see if it's an option if you play back 2 channel content?
 
JackstrawfromWichita

JackstrawfromWichita

Enthusiast
It came with my 7705. When playing a 2 channel recording, if you press pure, you get two channel stereo. If you press music, then you get these onscreen options.

Dolby Audio-Digital surround.

DTS Neural-X

Auro 2D surround

Multi channel stereo.

Virtual.

When you engage them the speakers activated show up in the front panel of the 7705

Of those I have tried the top three. The Dolby up mixer is by far the best and very convincing and natural. It is just amazingly good. It up mixes 2 channel stereo to 7.2.4 in a very convincing manner.

DTS is fair, but seems to have some harshness to it.

Now I never included a "Voice of God speaker for the Auro 2D and I find that one very unconvincing. The Dolby-Audio-Digital is superb.

So good that in the organ I sighted in another post, where the division playing the flute part is place to my right in a convincing manner with the right front and right surround becoming in effect a stereo pair. The reed paying the melody is dead ahead. The uncanny thing about this mixer, is that not only does it have good localization 360 in the room, but also from floor to ceiling.

This was the undoing of a couple of my JW ceiling speakers. I was listening to the Organ Prom with no audience in the RAH on August 29. Jonathan Scott gave a bravura performance. He even played his organ transcription of the Organ Symphony by Saint-Sens. He played the organ solos and the orchestra parts at the same. At some periods he played all four manuals and the pedals at once, using the thumbs down technique.

Well the BBC announcer said that all the paneling in the hall was shaking and her chest was vibrating. Well you know my insanity. I had to reproduce that here, and could. You could clearly tell you were under the huge dome of the RAH, and hear its reverberation. Absolutely stunning. Anyhow the "Voice of Jupiter" damaged a couple of my vintage JW modules when Hollywood could not. That organ by the way when commissioned in 1871, was powered by two enormous steam engines.
It is a very loud instrument when called on. Jonathan Scott said it used to have a health and safety warning at the console, but organists would pinch them!

Anyhow I have replaced the JW with their latest successor from Mark Audio. They take three times the power. In the 0.25 cu.ft sealed boxes they have an f3 of 90 Hz, and extend to 25KHz, with a response smoother than most tweeters.

The performance is still on iPlayer and I think will be for another 8 months or so. I do have the audio from it on the hard drive of my DAW in any case. It is by far the best total work out of any system.

But the bottom line is, I have no idea what the Dolby engineers have done to create this astonishing effect. I can attest, that it works, and works well. It also up mixes Dolby 5.1 and 7.1 to 7.2.4 and I suppose 7.2.6. I have four ceiling speakers which I think is optimal for this room. The DTS does the same thing with DTS material.

As I have said before all the speakers need to be capable and very accurate to get optimal effect. For this to work, any old speaker for surrounds, rear backs and ceilings will not cut it.

Hi - From above: "When you engage them the speakers activated show up in the front panel of the 7705"

Hi,
New happy owner of a 7705, and have a question the activated speakers that show up vs. the input signal. For each the modes above, the input signal is FL and FR, and the active speakers are all 5.1. As a numbers guy by trade, curious on how to interpret this? I'm streaming from HEOS app. Thanks
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hi - From above: "When you engage them the speakers activated show up in the front panel of the 7705"

Hi,
New happy owner of a 7705, and have a question the activated speakers that show up vs. the input signal. For each the modes above, the input signal is FL and FR, and the active speakers are all 5.1. As a numbers guy by trade, curious on how to interpret this? I'm streaming from HEOS app. Thanks
On my similar Denons there are options as to what to see, depending on display options (both or input or output only)....in your case if you have both and input is 2.0 and display speakers as 5.1 I'd assume you have an upmixer in use.
 
JackstrawfromWichita

JackstrawfromWichita

Enthusiast
Hi - From above: "When you engage them the speakers activated show up in the front panel of the 7705"

Hi,
New happy owner of a 7705, and have a question the activated speakers that show up vs. the input signal. For each the modes above, the input signal is FL and FR, and the active speakers are all 5.1. As a numbers guy by trade, curious on how to interpret this? I'm streaming from HEOS app. Thanks
Also, indicated above is Dolby Audio-Digital surround.
My 7705 says Dolby Audio - "Dolby" Surround. Is this the same as "Digital" Surround, and curious why they display differently?
 
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