Emotiva xpa-3 or Outlaw 5000x?

[audiophool7878]

How many channels does your receiver have? THAT'S HOW MANY 4ohm SPEAKERS IT CAN DRIVE

Most of the misconception with these speakers and 4 ohm speakers in general is trying to drive them with a receiver that is not 4ohm stable and has low watts per channel.

The receiever is not offically rated for 4ohm speakers which is why I asked about driving mutiple 4ohm speakers. There isnt any good reason for a person to assume that a receiver rated for 6-16 ohm speakers on the back, in its manual, and on the Denon website would be capable of driving five or seven 4 ohm speakers without first getting comfirmation from those who have done so....which is why I asked.

 

[Timforhifi]

FWIW the 530 is a bookshelf, the 520 is the center. I do wish the 520 were more substantial, but it works well enough....

Agree if sound quality is an issue then an amp isn't much of a solution....new speakers could well do the trick, tho.

thanks for the correction, I couldn’t remember exact model. Just remember it had two 4.5” drivers right?Much smaller horn as well?

I had about a decade ago jbl l890 towers, lc2 center with 4 l820 as surrounds. They were all nice speakers but the 890 were much more dynamic speakers. Still lc2 was a great center though just not a timbre match. I had some energy veritas 6.3, with 5.2c center and vs surrounds. Similar problems there too, 6.3 dominated the room. If my memory serves me I used a denon 4520 with that setup and channel levels on 6.3 and center were separated by over 5db. The vs surrounds were even worse, separated by over 10 dB from 6.3.

 

[audiophool7878]

I appreciate very much everyone who offered a hand to help out here. I think I'm gonna bow out now as people are staring to get a bit pissy and I dont want to ruin this thread for other who need to read it in the future as I feel there is information in here that a ton of people like myself are looking for.

Thanks again all. Stay safe in these uncertain times.

 

[mazersteven]

Denon AVR-5308CI A/V Receiver Measurements

Measurements This graph shows that the AVR-5308CI's left channel, from Multi input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 207.0 watts and 1% distortion at 235.5 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 279.4 watts and 1% distortion...

www.soundandvision.com

Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 279.4 watts and 1% distortion at 339.2 watts.

 

[audiophool7878]

Denon AVR-5308CI A/V Receiver Measurements

Measurements This graph shows that the AVR-5308CI's left channel, from Multi input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 207.0 watts and 1% distortion at 235.5 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 279.4 watts and 1% distortion...

www.soundandvision.com

Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 279.4 watts and 1% distortion at 339.2 watts.

And still isnt rated for 4 ohm operation officially by the company who makes it. Nor is there a single review to be found by anyone, anywhere bench testing 4 ohm operation in anything beyond two channel operation.
Which means my questions have been perfectly reasonable.

 

[PENG]

Just woke up. Thanks again for your input and apologies for my misinterpretation. I like to mess around with a 60hz crossover for 2 channel but thats the lowest I ever go and always 80hz when in multichannel. I prefer 2 channel to multichannel stereo so I never us multi chanel stereo.
I think the loudest I have ever been compelled to turn things up was -8 and that is not common for me, though if I though there was no problem with doing so i might try it more often.
I have never owned a proper spl meter but I did have one of those phone apps for it which I hear are quite accurate for db up to 90db. I dont believe Ive ever wanted to listen about 85db. I have prety good hearing I think for being 37 years old.
Im not too worried about being able to listen outside my main listening position for now

Pretty sure my next upgrade is going to be 3x monoprice monoblocks for my front stage. Jist gonna have to save a bit more.

Based on information you have provided so far, instead of keep going back and forth, I am just going to make the following assumption for your potentially worse conditions for power requirements:

- Your 90 dB sp requirement is "peak" since I asked for "maximum" but I will calculate based on 95 dB just in case.
- Given distance is 9-10 ft, but I would assume 11 ft.
- Based on one speaker (Note: with two in stereo mode, you may feel 3 dB louder, approximately).
- XO is 60 to 80 Hz, will try full range, again may as well see the results based on truly worse condition.
- Nominal impedance is 3.5 Ohm (Spec says 4 Ohms, but S&V review said it was below 4 Ohm over the range 42 - 72 Hz and 150 - 290 Hz and dip to 2.5 Ohm at 52 Hz (Note: XO 60 would clear that hurdle but full range won't).

Below are the calculated results:

The 5308 can definitely drive 5 of those, even if they are all LSi9, but you can forget about reference level with those speakers as they can only handle 200 W. You can see from the data I entered, the calculated results should be on the conservative side. Regardless, don't forget to put two USB fans on top of the Denon.

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories

www.amazon.com

Reference level is 85 dB, that's not bad, but THX standard required 20 dB headroom for peaks, to do that you may need 500 to 1000 W (depending on the assumed impedance). Then the issue is if you drive it with a Mc1.25 KW on an independent 20 A circuit, you may blow the speaker up before they can produce anywhere near 105 dB peak from 11 ft or even 9 ft.

I will respond separately to your post about the "rating at the back of....."

 

[mazersteven]

The THX Ultra2™ specification requires that the amplifier be able to drive all channels with speaker impedances as low as 3.2 ohms continuously.

THX Certified Ultra products bring the cinematic experience to larger home theaters, 3,000 cubic feet in size, with a viewing distance of 12 feet or greater from the screen.*
* Previously known as Ultra2

 

[PENG]

And still isnt rated for 4 ohm operation officially by the company who makes it. Nor is there a single review to be found by anyone, anywhere bench testing 4 ohm operation in anything beyond two channel operation.
Which means my questions have been perfectly reasonable.

This is a major misconception!! And you are not alone on this.

The fact is, power ("P"), voltage ("V") and current "I") are all related.

Please read on for explanation..

Part I:
Power formula: P = V X I Cos (Φ), Φ is the phase angle between the phasors "V" and "I)
Ohm's law: V = I X R, so the power formula can also be stated as P = V²/R, or P = I² X R for a resistor load.

In the following, for simplicity sake, assume a resistor load, so phase angle is 0 degree and Cos (0) = 1.

You can see that if an amplifier is rated 100 W into 8 Ohm, it could be rated 50 W into 4 Ohm, and yes "Officially" because for the same current (in "A" or amperage) flow, the power dissipated in a 4 Ohm resistor will be half that in an 8 Ohm resistor based on the formula P = I² X R.

Manufacturers don't want to give the impression that their amps are weak because the 4 Ohm rating is lower, that is, halved, instead of doubled, that one would expect from the formula P = V²/R . So they simply not bother providing a 4 Ohm rating.

Now, in recent years, Denon, Marantz, and others have begun to rate their AVRs for 4 Ohms as well. To do that, they require (stated in the Owner's manuals) you to select an "impedance setting" to 4 Ohms. If you do that, the AVR will lower the power rail voltage, so the end result is, yes now at the back they can say 4 ohm rated and still get the UL/CSA label.

The AVR-5308CI is rated 150 W into 8 Ohms, so they could have officially rate it 75 W into 4 Ohms.

Part II:

Other aspects of the "rated" power output are the bandwidth and THD.
This topic is more complicated, so for now, it is suffice to say that using the AVR-5308CI as example, its 150 W, 8 Ohm rating is based on the way it was specified in the Owner's manual:

Also consider the following facts:

Loudspeaker's impedance and phase angles are not constant over the audible bandwidth, so the 2.4 to 4 Ohm for the LSi9 only occur over the low range of say 30 to 300 Hz.

Unlike appliances (most appliances anyway), audio amplifier's output ratings are complicated, and there don't seem to be one, or even two standard that everyone follows. I lost count how many papers, articles, "standards" I downloaded and saved in my amp folder, only if I have time to read them all lol..

Here's one that you may find simple enough to follow, in the abstract it says:

"Average consumers often weigh heavily on cost versus power rating of audio amplifiers as their basis for purchasing one. Depending on the marketing strategy, the power rating methodology for audio amplifiers can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer."

https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slea047a/slea047a.pdf?ts=1602277326795&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F

 

[lovinthehd]

thanks for the correction, I couldn’t remember exact model. Just remember it had two 4.5” drivers right?Much smaller horn as well?

I had about a decade ago jbl l890 towers, lc2 center with 4 l820 as surrounds. They were all nice speakers but the 890 were much more dynamic speakers. Still lc2 was a great center though just not a timbre match. I had some energy veritas 6.3, with 5.2c center and vs surrounds. Similar problems there too, 6.3 dominated the room. If my memory serves me I used a denon 4520 with that setup and channel levels on 6.3 and center were separated by over 5db. The vs surrounds were even worse, separated by over 10 dB from 6.3.

Two 4" drivers actually but all the Studio 5 series share the same compression driver. I use a 4520 with them. What do you mean channel levels were separated?

 

[audiophool7878]

You can see that if an amplifier is rated 100 W into 8 Ohm, it could be rated 50 W into 4 ohm

You meant this in reverse correct?

 

[Timforhifi]

Maybe an easy way to simplify things. Sometime in 2009-2010 avrs started listing in specs as a feature “4 ohm certified.” Really any avr is able to handle a 4ohm load, but at what volume. Just think of it as another marketing move by these companies to act like one company can do something another can not. Which was misleading, but you also need to remember say a denon 1611 won’t have enough power to drive your Polk audio at as high of an spl as say a pioneer elite sc68. If you never reach louder peaks then 75-85 dB about any amp or avr would do. If you want to crank it up to fill your house with sound you’ll need some power, but you can give 200 watt speakers 500 watts of power and can’t expect any better sound then the 200 max they can handle. Well you would actually destroy your speakers with that much power.

If I had to make educated guess the denon 5308 is absolutely unlocking all the potential in your speakers.

 

[PENG]

The THX Ultra2™ specification requires that the amplifier be able to drive all channels with speaker impedances as low as 3.2 ohms continuously.

Could you post a link to the source please? If that's case, I would be curious to know how any AVR can get Ultra2 certification if the requirement is to drive all channels....impedances............3.2 ohms continuously, unless the said AVRs de-rate their 8 ohms rating multiple folds..

 

[Timforhifi]

Two 4" drivers actually but all the Studio 5 series share the same compression driver. I use a 4520 with them. What do you mean channel levels were separated?

I meant when level matching spl levels. I can’t remember exactly differences but it was kinda like this on energy veritas

6.3 channel trim was like -5
5.2c was around 0 to +1
Vs surrounds +5 to +6

I also new that my center and surrounds could not play reference levels without distorting.

Really all was trying to say, get speakers that can hit similar spl while maintaining timbre.

 

[PENG]

You meant this in reverse did u not?

Nope, meant it exactly the way its written. It is based on simple EE theories and math. To double down, a larger power supply would be needed. Otherwise it is "half down".

 

[lovinthehd]

I meant when level matching spl levels. I can’t remember exactly differences but it was kinda like this on energy veritas

6.3 channel trim was like -5
5.2c was around 0 to +1
Vs surrounds +5 to +6

I also new that my center and surrounds could not play reference levels without distorting.

Really all was trying to say, get speakers that can hit similar spl while maintaining timbre.

But did it make sense for the distance from the speaker and the sensitivity of the speaker for the trim levels set? I do like the argument for the same speaker all around....I use the 590s as mains, 580s for surrounds, 530s for rear surrounds (and the 520C). The speakers vary in sensitivity and distance and the trim levels follow that.

 

[Timforhifi]

I was just using those jbl as an example. Maybe wasn’t the best comparison. I was closer to surrounds then the front 3 in that room. So the vs surrounds just lacked in output.

I really do like jbl though and have only heard the 590 once. I really liked my 890 and wish I still had them. Also had ls80 with ls center, beautiful speakers. What’s funny is I have an old pair of jbl arc1000 that I pull out when we have parties outside by the pool. Sound great!

 

[audiophool7878]

Nope, meant it exactly the way its written. It is based on simple EE theories and math. To double down, a larger power supply would be needed. Otherwise it is "half down".

I see. The more you know...

 

[audiophool7878]

Could you post a link to the source please? If that's case, I would be curious to know how any AVR can get Ultra2 certification if the requirement is to drive all channels....impedances............3.2 ohms continuously, unless the said AVRs de-rate their 8 ohms rating multiple folds..

What do you mean by de rate?

 

[mazersteven]

Could you post a link to the source please? If that's case, I would be curious to know how any AVR can get Ultra2 certification if the requirement is to drive all channels....impedances............3.2 ohms continuously, unless the said AVRs de-rate their 8 ohms rating multiple folds..

THX Select vs. Ultra

THX-Certification - HomeTheaterHifi.com

THX is almost a quarter century old, and its Consumer Branch has been around since 1990, yet people still do not have a proper understanding of THX. Maybe that's THX's fault, maybe it's ours (the press) . . .

hometheaterhifi.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You mentioned the 2 channels driven power specs and I was wondering if your confidence in this receiver extented to 5 channel...

Have you read the article on the All Channels Driven (ACD) fallacy?

To make a long story short, ACD is NOT what we see in real life movies and music.

ACD isn’t the true test of how capable an amplifier is. Some companies (like Yamaha) will use stringent circuit protection and will (ON PURPOSE) limit how many watts the amp will output into 5Ch or more. This may be to lower heat production and improve reliability.

But because we don’t actually encounter ACD in real life movies, what we need to focus on is the 2CH Driven Test to see how capable an amp is. So don’t focus on 5CH or 7Ch ACD.

BTW, speaking of THX, this ACD article also talks about the THX 3.2-ohm rating.

The All Channels Driven (ACD) Amplifier Test

This article explores the All Channels Driven power test popularized by some print magazines and manufacturers. It discusses its relevancy and real world implications.

www.audioholics.com