Receiver as external amp

J

jameshtx

Enthusiast
For my 7.2.4, I’m using external amp for 5 channels and my avr for the remaining 6.

If I go with Marantz AV7705 pre/pro, can I still use the avr as external amp? I would hate not to have use for it.


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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
For my 7.2.4, I’m using external amp for 5 channels and my avr for the remaining 6.

If I go with Marantz AV7705 pre/pro, can I still use the avr as external amp? I would hate not to have use for it.


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Seem like what you are doing is good and cost effective. What are you trying to gain with a 7705 that measured worse than the SR6014 and much worse than the 2019/2020 Denon 3000/4000 series?
 
J

jameshtx

Enthusiast
Trying to gain better sound by going with a dedicated pre/pro. In order for me to do that, all channels must be driven by external amplifier. Instead of buying another 6 or 7 channel external amplifier, I would like to use my avr (Denon avrx 4300h) if possible? If so, how would I go about doing so? Thx


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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I wouldn't expect any significant change in sound quality from a pre-pro fwiw. Some Denons have multi-ch inputs which are the best for using one as a multi-ch power amp, but yours doesn't have those so you're limited to 2ch of use from one of the other inputs.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Trying to gain better sound by going with a dedicated pre/pro. In order for me to do that, all channels must be driven by external amplifier. Instead of buying another 6 or 7 channel external amplifier, I would like to use my avr (Denon avrx 4300h) if possible? If so, how would I go about doing so? Thx


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As HD said, you can only use the Denon as a 2 ch power amp. For sound quality I would go further to say you won't gain anything if you already have the x4300h that has the same preamp and dac. Before you make a move, please read the ASR review on the 7705.

What you would gain is XLR output if you need to use them.
 
J

jameshtx

Enthusiast
Appreciate you guys for giving me your thoughts on this. I’m going to give it a try. Worst case I can return it if I’m not satisfied.


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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Appreciate you guys for giving me your thoughts on this. I’m going to give it a try. Worst case I can return it if I’m not satisfied.


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One other reason, apparently Marantz has upgraded the HDAMs to the point the SR8015 now measured as good as the Denon AVRs. I bet that will apply to the AV7706, SR7015, 6015 too, so if you like Marantz you may want to wait.
 
J

jameshtx

Enthusiast
Off topic but isn’t Marantz the higher end of Denon?


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WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
You certainly can use the AVR as a stand-alone amplifier, if it has multi-channel inputs. I’m currently using a set up like that. My older AVR has a more robust amplifier section than my new one did, so I used the old one as the amplifier. The multi-channel inputs are basically a direct in to the amplifier channels

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
J

jameshtx

Enthusiast
One other reason, apparently Marantz has upgraded the HDAMs to the point the SR8015 now measured as good as the Denon AVRs. I bet that will apply to the AV7706, SR7015, 6015 too, so if you like Marantz you may want to wait.
Wouldn’t Marantz come out with a firmware update for the AV7705 to get latest features?


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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Off topic but isn’t Marantz the higher end of Denon?


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It's marketed that way somewhat. They're close enough it doesn't really matter IMO as they're more similar than different.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Wouldn’t Marantz come out with a firmware update for the AV7705 to get latest features?


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I highly doubt that, you will still get updates for bug fixes but for features, pretty sure whatever they promised at launch time have been done already. The HDMI 2.1/8K is a paid hardware upgrade only offered to the AV8805 and AVR-X8500H only. HDAM is also a hardware change.

Don't get me wrong, the AV7705 is a nice unit, and I don't think most people can hear a difference between 75 dB and 95 dB SINAD unless they are highly critical, with good hearing, and have a very quiet room and listen loud enough. So yes, it should be audible but there are lots of "if, and, but" involved.. Reports of night and day difference are probably Placebo induced, that may or may not apply to a lot of people.

Compare the distortions+noise performance of the AV7705 vs the AVR-X3500H yourself, you can see that at about the same output voltage, that is, 2.4 V XLR to 1.2 V RCA, the Denon actually measure better. Your AVR-X4300H should measure the same as the X3500H because the preamp and DAC ICs are the identical. The Denon's dashboard show 1 V, but the reviewer said it was the same at 1.2 V, only degraded quickly starting at about 1.4 V. The AV7705's output degraded in similar ways to the Denon pre-out's at higher voltage.

Whether the THD+N performance is an issue for you or not is a whole different thing, for me, I would not buy the AV7705 so late in the cycle, unless you can get one at half price with full warranty.

Full disclosure: I like Marantz enough that I still own 3 of their products, but yes, I am somewhat disgruntle because one year after I spent big money (big to me..) on my first "dedicated" processor, the then flag ship AV8801, they upgraded the HDAM and the 4K feature. My AV8801's 4K feature was deemed obsolete, before I could actually use it, ouch right? Surely I wouldn't be able to hear a difference but it was not a good feeling. That's the other reason I am saying what I am saying to you, but obviously it is your decision. I am only trying to help you getting a little more informed of things you might not have considered.

ASR review AV7705

1601299035830.png


ASR review AVR-X3500H

1601298974495.png


Another note on the subjective side of the equation. Yes, owners of the AV7705 will tell you all kinds of reasons why they "sound better" despite the higher distortions+noise than Denon's AVRs. It is your choice to believe in such subjective views, could even be just hearsy, or believe in D+M's own published specs and bench measurements using highly precise instruments by real electrical engineers such as Gene, Amir and others. You know the definition of THD+N, so you will also understand why if someone could actually hear a "better sound" from the device that has higher THD, then perhaps they happen to like the higher distortions, but then you may not.

You can also see the difference the harmonic contents between the two by examining the FFT closely. Where is that often claimed "warm" sound from, isn't it the 2nd harmonics? How come the Denon shows higher 2nd than 3rd harmonics then, and it was the opposite for the Marantz?? Again, that's assuming people could actually tell the difference at such low level of distortions.
 
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J

jameshtx

Enthusiast
Peng, I totally get what you're saying now. I had no idea that my 4300h & the 3500h had identical DAC n preamp. I'm going to focus on finding another dedicated amp for the other 6 channels and use my AVR-X4300h solely as preamp processor and see how that goes. I'm looking at the Outlaw Audio 7000x 7-channel amp. Price is very reasonable. I would love the Monolith 7x but its a grand more.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Peng, I totally get what you're saying now. I had no idea that my 4300h & the 3500h had identical DAC n preamp. I'm going to focus on finding another dedicated amp for the other 6 channels and use my AVR-X4300h solely as preamp processor and see how that goes. I'm looking at the Outlaw Audio 7000x 7-channel amp. Price is very reasonable. I would love the Monolith 7x but its a grand more.
The X4300H, X4400H, X4500H, X3500H, X3600H, SR6011, 6012, 6013, 7012, 7013, 6014, and even the SR8012 and AV7705, all have the same preamp vol control IC and DAC IC. The AV8805 and AVR-X8500H do have a better DAC, but still the same preamp vol control IC.

Regarding adding another amp, the Outlaw 5000 did not do any better in their THD+N, IMD, SNR and DR measurements. Reality is, people may think if it costs more, and is a "dedicated" component, it must "sound better" than AVRs that have everything jammed in one box, but that's not always the case, far from it. I compared a X3500H side by side with my separates, at low spl I heard no "better sound quality" whatsoever, but of course that's just me, though bench test results seem to support my own comparison listening subjective impression.

More expensive separates do typically offer better build quality, and likely better reliability as well. They also tend to look better, and may have a better feel to the touch too.

If your X4300H is driving a 5 channel amp for the L,C,R, you could just continue to use the internal amps to power the surround and height/Atmos channels. Adding the Outlaw 7000 won't get you any better sound quality, but it may make your AVR run slightly cooler. A couple of the quiet (at low speed) usb AC infinity fans for about $20 may be a much better value than the outlaw 7000, and may actually do more in contributing to longevity.

Back to the objective side, you can see from the chart below that the Outlaw 5000 amp currently ranks below the X3500H in the ASR reviews. You can safety assume it would rank below the X4300H too. The Outlaw 7000 would most likely perform about the same as the 5000, it has two additional amps and its rated output is slightly higher, that's about it.


1601331496729.png



By the way, in case you may not be aware, since you are running 7.1.4, make sure you use the amp assign function to disconnect the internal amps. Once you do that, the pre-outs will be able to maintain >95 dB SINAD up to 2 V or higher. This is important if you are using a high power amp especially one that has below average gain, say less than 28 dB. The AV7705 only managed about 75 dB at 4 V, XLR, or 2 V RCA, so the X4300H can do quite a bit better. For measurements, just refer to the ASR tests on the AVR-X3600H and AVR-X4700H as those were measured with the internal amps disconnected.

Note: The AVR-X4300H through X4500H and SR6011 through SR7013 do not have preamp mode, the amp assign feature only let you disconnect the front left and front right channels.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Trying to gain better sound by going with a dedicated pre/pro.

...I would like to use my avr (Denon avrx 4300h) if possible?
You're trying to get better sound with a pre-pro because....you think AVR don't sound as good as pre-pro....but then you end up using an AVR anyway?

IMO, if you're using a pre-pro, then only use separate amps. Otherwise, just use your AVR and forget the pre-pro.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm going to focus on finding another dedicated amp for the other 6 channels and use my AVR-X4300h solely as preamp processor and see how that goes.
See if you can actually hear a difference in sound quality?

Specifically in the 6 SURROUND speakers?
 
J

jameshtx

Enthusiast
See if you can actually hear a difference in sound quality?

Specifically in the 6 SURROUND speakers?
Yes. The second amp would be for surround rears and four heights. But from what you’re saying, it’s not going to make a difference in sound?


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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes. The second amp would be for surround rears and four heights. But from what you’re saying, it’s not going to make a difference in sound?


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Why would it?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
IMO, if you're using a pre-pro, then only use separate amps. Otherwise, just use your AVR and forget the pre-pro.
I would agree with you if he has easy to drive speakers, don't get close to reference level and sitting no further than 3-4 meters. Otherwise using an AVR with a 3 channel amp to drive the front left, center and right is not a bad idea. That is, spend the money on where it can benefit most, the front 3 channels. The preamp/processor+external power amp typically would cost much more because they do often go on big sales like AVRs do.
 
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