Alternative to Outlaw RR2160?

[KEW]

Every so often we have someone come through who is looking for a stereo-only option (with sub). We usually first try to push them to the value of an AVR, but if they are dead set against one, the RR2160 is on the short list because it offers bass management in the way of a crossover that has a high pass for the main speakers.

Enter the reconditioned HK990, for the same $999 that the RR2160 currently costs!

HK 990 | Powerful 2-channel Amplifier with Subwoofer Output

To complement the HK 990’s 150 watts per channel of motive power, this feature-packed stereo amplifier features fourth-generation Real-Time Linear Smoothing (RLS IV), EzSet/EQÔ II technology for playback optimization, dual subwoofer outputs and an ultrawide bandwidth design crafted to deliver...

support.harmanaudio.com

The Stereophile link puts the MSRP at $2600 (see the specifications page) and the Harman site puts it at $1999 so you can guess at what it really was (Stereophile reviewed it in 2011).

Harman Kardon HK 990 integrated amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Outlaw Audio RR2160 stereo receiver Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Using Stereophile's measurements (John Atkinson measured both!):
8 ohms: HK = 190W, Outlaw = 150W
4 ohms: HK = 300W, Outlaw = 230W

Of course there are lots of other differences between these units, and refurbished can be a turn-off for some, so preference is TBD by the buyer.
But it is always good to have another option!

 

[lovinthehd]

Every so often we have someone come through who is looking for a stereo-only option (with sub). We usually first try to push them to the value of an AVR, but if they are dead set against one, the RR2160 is on the short list because it offers bass management in the way of a crossover that has a high pass for the main speakers.

Enter the reconditioned HK990, for the same $999 that the RR2160 currently costs!

HK 990 | Powerful 2-channel Amplifier with Subwoofer Output

To complement the HK 990’s 150 watts per channel of motive power, this feature-packed stereo amplifier features fourth-generation Real-Time Linear Smoothing (RLS IV), EzSet/EQÔ II technology for playback optimization, dual subwoofer outputs and an ultrawide bandwidth design crafted to deliver...

support.harmanaudio.com

The Stereophile link puts the MSRP at $2600 (see the specifications page) and the Harman site puts it at $1999 so you can guess at what it really was (Stereophile reviewed it in 2011).

Harman Kardon HK 990 integrated amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Outlaw Audio RR2160 stereo receiver Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Using Stereophile's measurements (John Atkinson measured both!):
8 ohms: HK = 190W, Outlaw = 100W
4 ohms: HK = 300W, Outlaw = 230W

Of course there are lots of other differences between these units, and refurbished can be a turn-off for some, so preference is TBD by the buyer.
But it is always good to have another option!

FWIW just looking at the Stereophile wattage for the 2160, it was 150wpc for 8 ohm at the 1% THD+N spec, same basis for the 230 wpc into 4 ohms was.

 

[KEW]

FWIW just looking at the Stereophile wattage for the 2160, it was 150wpc for 8 ohm at the 1% THD+N spec, same basis for the 230 wpc into 4 ohms was.

Thanks, I corrected it!
JA tested the HK 990 into one channel at 450W into 2 Ohms. He did not perform that test on the 2160, but I'm thinking that one channel at 2 Ohms is not much more impressive than two channels at 4 Ohms, right?

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks, I corrected it!
JA tested the HK 990 into one channel at 450W into 2 Ohms. He did not perform that test on the 2160, but I'm thinking that one channel at 2 Ohms is not much more impressive than two channels at 4 Ohms, right?

Hard to know until you actually test at 2 ohms....does Outlaw have any rating at 2 ohm?

 

[KEW]

Hard to know until you actually test at 2 ohms....does Outlaw have any rating at 2 ohm?

I don't think so!
I would assume the HK to be a better straight-up amp section because this was a flagship model (under the HK name).

HK 990
I guess this is a true dual mono, given the dual transformers!:

Outlaw RR2160:

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't think so!
I would assume the HK to be a better straight-up amp section because this was a flagship model (under the HK name), and I would categorize the 5000 as a very well done AVR amp section.

HK 990
I guess this is a true dual mono, given the dual transformers!:

Outlaw RR2160:

There were several HK receivers with the "Twin" designation for the dual power supplies IIRC. Fan favorites from what I can tell....

 

[Verdinut]

In my opinion, the Yamaha A-S801 is a good alternative to the Outlaw. It has rather good specs and can easily handle 4 ohm loads:

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Review

The Yamaha A-S801 is an honestly rated 100 watt/ch integrated amplifier with a built in high resolution USB-B DAC to power a serious dedicated two-channel or upscale PC system with pristine fidelity.

www.audioholics.com

 

[slipperybidness]

BUT.....what other competitor has that sexy retro look of the Outlaw???

Seriously, that is a selling point to me! It is just so different looking than any modern gear. It would look dang nice sitting on my rack running the show!

We all know that we have sighted biases, and that look of the Outlaw is one heck of a nice starting point to get my bias in gear!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In my opinion, the Yamaha A-S801 is a good alternative to the Outlaw. It has rather good specs and can easily handle 4 ohm loads:

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Review

The Yamaha A-S801 is an honestly rated 100 watt/ch integrated amplifier with a built in high resolution USB-B DAC to power a serious dedicated two-channel or upscale PC system with pristine fidelity.

www.audioholics.com

Not only that, but it's also an "Integrated Amp", not a "Receiver".

Some audiophiles will not buy anything with the word "Receiver" in it.

 

[KEW]

In my opinion, the Yamaha A-S801 is a good alternative to the Outlaw. It has rather good specs and can easily handle 4 ohm loads:

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Review

The Yamaha A-S801 is an honestly rated 100 watt/ch integrated amplifier with a built in high resolution USB-B DAC to power a serious dedicated two-channel or upscale PC system with pristine fidelity.

www.audioholics.com

The problem with tha Yamaha integrated amps is they do not provide a high pass filter for the mains.
That is what puts the Outlaw and the HK in a different category.
If I am looking for my 2.1 audio system, I want to remove the lowest bass from my mains and let the subs take it. To me, that has too many audible benefits to ignore! Most modern subs have enough variability in their tuning for me to be satisfied with their SQ, but throw in mains that have a natural roll-off at 30-40Hz and you have some issues to contend with not to have anything but a bass knob for control!

 

[KEW]

BUT.....what other competitor has that sexy retro look of the Outlaw???

Seriously, that is a selling point to me! It is just so different looking than any modern gear. It would look dang nice sitting on my rack running the show!

We all know that we have sighted biases, and that look of the Outlaw is one heck of a nice starting point to get my bias in gear!

That is definitely a huge difference between the HK and the Outlaw.
Not just the look, but the HK only has one knob on it and everything else is a row of skinny buttons!
I don't know how good the feel of the knobs on the Outlaw are, but I like knobs and only really need an input selector and volume/mute control at my seat (remote)!
So I get it and definitely appreciate your comment about bias!

For me, back in the mid to late 70's, I pined for the Harman Kardon Citation series gear, so I actually had to talk myself down from buying the HK 990. So the HK legacy is definitely a factor in the draw for me!

 

[KEW]

Not only that, but it's also an "Integrated Amp", not a "Receiver".

Some audiophiles will not buy anything with the word "Receiver" in it.

I love the look of this series (I have an A-S700 which has a better amp section than the later 70X and 80X models). I wish the knobs still had the feel of the old ones, but that is definitely not a show-stopper!
If they added a proper high pass filter for using a sub and kept the wonderful Yamaha loudness system on the upper models, I would totally be looking at the A-S1200, A-S2200, or A-S3200 with the retro VU meters.
But I want subs and Yamaha does not support me on that count!

 

[Verdinut]

The problem with tha Yamaha integrated amps is they do not provide a high pass filter for the mains.
That is what puts the Outlaw and the HK in a different category.
If I am looking for my 2.1 audio system, I want to remove the lowest bass from my mains and let the subs take it. To me, that has too many audible benefits to ignore! Most modern subs have enough variability in their tuning for me to be satisfied with their SQ, but throw in mains that have a natural roll-off at 30-40Hz and you have some issues to contend with not to have anything but a bass knob for control!

But when you have a pair of good tower speakers with decent low frequency response, and you're not interested in complementing your system by adding a subwoofer, you agree with the fact that it's definitely one amplifier to add to a short list of contenders.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I love the look of this series (I have an A-S700 which has a better amp section than the later 70X and 80X models). I wish the knobs still had the feel of the old ones, but that is definitely not a show-stopper!
If they added a proper high pass filter for using a sub and kept the wonderful Yamaha loudness system on the upper models, I would totally be looking at the A-S1200, A-S2200, or A-S3200 with the retro VU meters.
But I want subs and Yamaha does not support me on that count!

Yamaha seem to offer less bass management in most of their products, except for the Manual Parametric EQ for the 2 subs in the pre-pro and AVR.

I think Yamaha want people to use their own Subwoofer Amp with High-pass filter.

Also, if you use Direct Mode, they won't allow Sub use, but DM actually allow Subwoofer (bass management) even with Pure Direct mode.

In my living room, I use Pure Direct mode on my RX-A3080 with the RBH SVT towers (Speaker Large, No Subs in AVR Setting). The RX-A3080 powers the upper cabinets (SV831R). Then I use the Subwoofer Amp (SA-500DSP) for bass management for the subwoofer cabinets (SV1212N).

I've been "preaching" about "Actively" bi-amping Passive towers (dual 10-12" woofers) using external sub amp. So It would be just like I'm doing it with the SVT towers, even though the SVT is more like monitor + sub.

Everyone talk about how Passive bi-amp is a total waste. Well, I'm preaching Passive-Active Bi-amp. Not to be confused with Passive-Aggressive behavior.

I need to start a thread call "Bi-Amp is NOT a waste if you Passive-Active Bi-Amp!"

Oops, anyway, yeah, Yamaha Integrated Amps probably will require to use to external bass management with an external subwoofer amp.

 

[John Parks]

Maybe the Yamaha R-N803? Same amplification as the A-S801, plus YPAO and a whole boatload of other features. As far as crossover points (high pass and low pass) they can be controlled/adjusted via Yamaha's app.

$900.

 

[KEW]

I think Yamaha want people to use their own Subwoofer Amp with High-pass filter.

Do you have some examples of subwoofer amps with high-pass filters?
You understand that the high pass is for the mains, not the sub, right?
They do exist, but to my awareness they are enough of a departure from mainstream home audio that I have a hard time imagining that as Yamaha's plan!

 

[lovinthehd]

Not only that, but it's also an "Integrated Amp", not a "Receiver".

Some audiophiles will not buy anything with the word "Receiver" in it.

This still cracks me up since an integrated is just a receiver without the tuner section. They don't mind the other electronics smushed into the same box as the amps which is the common complaint from audiophiles as to why separates are necessary.

 

[slipperybidness]

That is definitely a huge difference between thee HK and the Outlaw.
Not just the look, but the HK only has one knob on it and everything else is a row of skinny buttons!
I don't know how good the feel of the knobs on the Outlaw are, but I like knobs and only really need an input selector and volume/mute control at my seat (remote)!
So I get it and definitely appreciate your comment about bias!

For me, back in the mid to late 70's, I pined for the Harman Kardon Citation series gear, so I actually had to talk myself down from buying the HK 990. So the HK legacy is definitely a factor in the draw for me!

So, way back when I needed a new AVR. The knob on my JVC wore out (I think that JVC was pre-video processing days).

I went to the local BB and scooped up a nice deal on my Pio Elite VSX82 as an open box, still in service ~14 years later.

But.....as I was talking to the sales guy about the HK AVRs, he told me, "it's an odd little nit-pick of mine, but I just never liked those HK knobs, they seem a bit fragile and ready to get wonky". At that point, I had not told him that I was shopping precisely because a knob had worn out! That one little comment is what put that Pio in my house instead.

 

[KEW]

Maybe the Yamaha R-N803? Same amplification as the A-S801, plus YPAO and a whole boatload of other features. As far as crossover points (high pass and low pass) they can be controlled/adjusted via Yamaha's app.
View attachment 38848
$900.

That is a good option!
And for me, the silver is a win!
Crutchfield has it for $750 (but I'm not sure silver is an option in the US)!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Do you have some examples of subwoofer amps with high-pass filters?
You understand that the high pass is for the mains, not the sub, right?
They do exist, but to my awareness they are enough of a departure from mainstream home audio that I have a hard time imagining that as Yamaha's plan!

The RBH SA-500DSP amp I use for the SVT has HPF (Subsonic filter), LPF and Parametric EQ with more EQ bands than Yamaha.

Speaking of which, I just ordered the SA-500DSP for a client in Edmond.