Still struggling to understand the ins and outs re: input sensitivity

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Ooh. I like that calculator. Thanks for sharing! :)
Yup, been all over the sub tip, too. And sub link/bassaholic room ratings.
Originally liked the little ported svs for 499. Awww, ain't that cute? That's when I started realizing how important my room size is in the overall scheme. So now my leading contenders, in no particular order: SVS PC4000 or PB4000, Outlaw X-13 Ultra, Hsu VTF-15H mk2. Dark horse contestant is the Monolith 15" Ultra. If I say F the cost, SVS PB-16 Ultra.
And for my room size, I'm gonna double down on whichever I buy.
PC/PB-4000s might not have the juice... its a close call for my room, but I like the footprint of the PCs especially, easy to put out of the way.
X-13 might be my front runner right now based on reviews and such. I like the look, too.
VTF-15H mk2, I can drive to LA and hear them, buy without having to deal with shipping. While in LA, I should be able to audition the SVS PC and PB 4000s and the PB16 Ultra.
*shrug
I'm enjoying the journey. :cool:
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Ooh. I like that calculator. Thanks for sharing! :)
Yup, been all over the sub tip, too. And sub link/bassaholic room ratings.
Originally liked the little ported svs for 499. Awww, ain't that cute? That's when I started realizing how important my room size is in the overall scheme. So now my leading contenders, in no particular order: SVS PC4000 or PB4000, Outlaw X-13 Ultra, Hsu VTF-15H mk2. Dark horse contestant is the Monolith 15" Ultra. If I say F the cost, SVS PB-16 Ultra.
And for my room size, I'm gonna double down on whichever I buy.
PC/PB-4000s might not have the juice... its a close call for my room, but I like the footprint of the PCs especially, easy to put out of the way.
X-13 might be my front runner right now based on reviews and such. I like the look, too.
VTF-15H mk2, I can drive to LA and hear them, buy without having to deal with shipping. While in LA, I should be able to audition the SVS PC and PB 4000s and the PB16 Ultra.
*shrug
I'm enjoying the journey. :cool:
Keep in mind sub demos are largely dependent on setup and the room. I wouldn't bother personally, altho a visit to Hsu might be worth it if not too far. SVS demos at BB, meh.

What about Seaton, JTR and Funk?

Have you checked out data-bass.com?
 
H

HarryCrumb

Audiophyte
Hi,

I know this is an old thread but I was reading it yesterday and it's the best set of explanations that I've found so far concerning output votage and input sensitivity. I'm active on another audio forum but joined audioholics because this thread was so good.

I own a few samplers and synthesisers and just love music in general, but I have only recently started getting in to proper hifi. I find the technical side of audio quite difficult and my main concern has been that I might blow something up and ruin my expensive vintage speakers. The explanations on this thread will get me a long way, combined with some tinkering and experimenting, but I do have one question that I hope someone can help me with.

Here is the example; I have a power amplifier. It's input sensitivity is 0.5v (it's from 1976).


For source I have an MPC Live which has 2 main 1/4" TRS outputs and a master volume control. The manual gives the following specs for the outputs;
Impedance balanced
Dynamic Range 100dB (A weighted)
Maximum input level +8dBu
Output impedance 100ohm


I'm fairly sure that if I connect the MPC live master outputs straight to my power amplifier, with the volume level down, it won't break anything, but thats where my confidence ends.

Am I able to make that connection? What should I be able to work out from the specs?

All help greatly appreciated! (slight edit made after TLS Guy noted an error)
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi,

I know this is an old thread but I was reading it yesterday and it's the best set of explanations that I've found so far concerning output votage and input sensitivity. I'm active on another audio forum but joined audioholics because this thread was so good.

I own a few samplers and synthesisers and just love music in general, but I have only recently started getting in to proper hifi. I find the technical side of audio quite difficult and my main concern has been that I might blow something up and ruin my expensive vintage speakers. The explanations on this thread will get me a long way, combined with some tinkering and experimenting, but I do have one question that I hope someone can help me with.

Here is the example; I have a power amplifier. It's input sensitivity is 0.5v (it's from 1976). I have an MPC Live which has 2 main 1/4" TRS outputs and a master volume control. The manual gives the following specs for the outputs;
Impedance balanced
Dynamic Range 100dB (A weighted)
Maximum input level +8dBu
Output impedance 100ohm


I'm fairly sure that if I connect the MPC live master outputs straight to my power amplifier, with the volume level down, it won't break anything, but thats where my confidence ends.

Am I able to make that connection? What should I be able to work out from the specs?

All help greatly appreciated!
What power amp is that? Are you sure you quoted that output impedance correctly? 100 ohm is extremely high and would make any amps frequency response follow the impedance curve of the speaker? If that speck is true then you need to ditch that amp for sure. The output impedance should only be a fraction of an ohm.
 
H

HarryCrumb

Audiophyte
What power amp is that? Are you sure you quoted that output impedance correctly? 100 ohm is extremely high and would make any amps frequency response follow the impedance curve of the speaker? If that speck is true then you need to ditch that amp for sure. The output impedance should only be a fraction of an ohm.
Sorry, I should have separated the text a bit better. The 100ohm spec is from the source output, quoted out of the manual. I have edited the original text above. The Amp is a Quad 405 (v.1) so that is 8ohm 100w per channel, input sensitivity of 0.5v
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Sorry, I should have separated the text a bit better. The 100ohm spec is from the source output, quoted out of the manual. I have edited the original text above. The Amp is a Quad 405 (v.1) so that is 8ohm 100w per channel, input sensitivity of 0.5v
Ok that has a very low source impedance. I have a bunch of 405s and 405-2s. The 405-2 is a big improvement over the 1. The current dumpers are great. I don't think you will damage your speakers with that amp. Just make sure that yours is not a low serial number of the 405. The early ones had no speaker protection and if an output transistor blows then your speaker goes up in smoke literally. If you are unsure, then the next version of the 405-1 has the protection circuit in the back of the speaker terminals. The 405-2 has the thyristor protection in the amp board.

There were a lot of iterations of the 405, not just 1 and 2 versions. That amp underwent continuous tinkering by Peter Walker and others including somewhat myself. So the later the version the better. I using a couple of 405-2s to power my Atmos speakers. I have another driving a couple of subs in a 2.2 system.

The main AV room has 7 Quad 909s and the two 405-2.

9 Quad amps.



That lot powers this.







Another couple of Quad 909s.



A Quad 909 and 405-2.



I think we are probably the only 2 Quad owners on this forum!
 
H

HarryCrumb

Audiophyte
...wow, that is a serious room you have there. And a serious stack of 909’s!

My 405 is the first version, pcb issue 10, so it has the circuit clamp on the back of the l/s terminals as you mentioned. It’s a lovely sound, but does need some modernisation. I live in hope of owning the 909. And I’m very jealous of that room still...
 
John Galt

John Galt

Junior Audioholic
If you have good ears, one quick way is to turn the volume up one or two clicks at a time until you hear distortions. You can simply play something from your favorite collections that you know has excellent recording quality that you know you cannot hear any distortions at your normal listening levels, then if you start hearing the slightest sign of distortions during the peaks such as a cymbal crash, hold it right there and listen to the same peak(s) a few more time to make sure you find the volume position where you first detected such distortions. Now if the volume is at say, 0 on the relative scale, and you normally listen to this same piece of music at -10, then you have 10 dB of headroom. This is just a quick and easy way, you can do better if you have the proper measuring equipment and/or software. Also, this assumes the bottleneck is the AVR, not your speakers.





Yes, your "Part of the answer...." is correct, but as TLGGuy said, just turn the volume down!! In other words, the volume position will be much lower for the same sound pressure level, if you flip the scenario from feeding a 1.2 V sensitivity power amp with a 0.7 V rated preamp from feeding a 0.7 V rated sensitivity power amp with a 1.2 V rated output preamp. So that is a non issue, but there is a practical limit, though power amps with sensitivity higher (i.e. lower specified voltage, or higher specified dB) are rare.



You are not alone, I wish they (for AVRs, AVPs and integrated amps) would all specify something like:
Pre-out: 1.2 V RMS, CFP-BW, at <0.01% THD, 3.0 V RMS Maximum at 0.05% THD, >500 ohms.
That's not a lot to ask, and Yamaha did come close to this, but they did it for their AVP CX-A5000 series only.



It did seem to vary between models, and likely the test protocols by different labs could have been different too. Also, keep in mind voltage stated in RMS, peak and peak to peak will obviously be different because:

For sine waves (that's used in those tests),
Peak = RMS X √ 2, or RMS X 1.414
Peak to peak = RMS X 2

If they don't specify RMS, I typically would assume they mean RMS if it is from a reputable manufacturer such as D&M.



For those speakers, in a medium size room you will be fine with the SR6012. It depends mainly on how far you sit, if you sit further than 10-12 ft and you listen at or near reference level, the SR6012 won't have much headroom left, may even struggle.

The AVR-X4400H would have given you a little more watts/$ for the same money but regardless, to make a 3 dB difference you need double the power. If you have one or two powerful subwoofers, and set crossovers to 80 or even 100 Hz, you may only need to add 3 X M2200 or a Monolith 3X200 W for the front speakers.



No idea what .825mVa is, you probably heard him/her wrong.



Those specs are typically approximately correct, to a few decimal points. Based on my own calculations and testing, the gain is closer to 27.5 dB or even higher, using the RCA inputs so that's accurate enough I guess. I suspect the M2200 will level match very well with D&M AVRs (including your SR6012). It matches my Denon AVR-X4400H and Marantz AV8801 to within 1 dB on level tests using a spl meter.



Good observation, the 225 WPC is for one channel, with two channel it will be close, but with 3 channel driven it probably would drop to 190-200 W, just my educated guess, and that's close enough. If you are in Canada, the MCA 325 would be the one to get. If in the US, I would go for the M2200. I just got mine for $299 when it was on sale. Regular price is $380, but I am sure the $299 sale will be back soon enough.
Outlaw 2200 specs:

Gain: +27dB for full output
(1.7V XLR input sensitivity)
(850mV RCA input sensitivity)

Input Impedance: >10K Ohms

(RCA=16K Ohms, XLR=30K Ohms)

 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Holy Thread-surrection, Batman!
Can't believe this was almost 2-years old, as is my time here! Wheeee!

Thanks for the journey guys! I'm a little wiser today than I was then... but not by much. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Outlaw 2200 specs:

Gain: +27dB for full output
(1.7V XLR input sensitivity)
(850mV RCA input sensitivity)

Input Impedance: >10K Ohms

(RCA=16K Ohms, XLR=30K Ohms)

Thank you John, two things. its 850 mV, he wrote .825mVa , that's why I didn't know what it was.
One is voltage the other is an "apparent power unit". VA = Watt if the phase angle involved is 0 degree, that is when voltage and current are in phase.

The other thing is, Outlaw's spec is very confusing and strictly speaking, inaccurate, I email them about it before when I bought my M2200, they fixed part of it but not the other. After I followed up one more time, I gave up. The funny thing is, their specs for everything else aren't bad, not that great but not bad, but the way they specify the 2200 is.... well better not say any more.
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Keep in mind... :)
That the pre-amp out spec simply states what its output is for a reference input.. For example, Yamaha specs 1V output based upon a 1V spec input signal, however many source components have a higher output level than 1V. The original redbook spec for CD players was 2V, in the case the pre-out voltage will be higher.
Bottom line..
Basic spec is simply 1V of gain measured from an input port to pre-out port..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
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faiser

faiser

Audiophyte
Interesting read!

Well I think you are over thinking this. You really only have to worry if an output is significantly lower than an input, then you can easily run up against poor signal to noise.
I'm in an similar position today as the OP. Using a Denon AVR with fronts preout to a Rotel power amp.
I'm moving into music listening from dsd files and recently upgraded my speakers. I feel the Denon is now the weakest link. Hence my interest in adding a DAC / preamp in between.

Now my power amp Rotel RB-1582 MkII has an input sensitivity of 1.9V
The Rotel RC-1590 preamp I'm looking at is specced at 1V output voltage

1.9V seems rather high for a sensitivity value, and 1V is low for output voltage on their reference preamp.
The difference between these numbers seem significant. And one wouldn't expect this discrepancy since these Rotel components are supposed to be the perfect couple. Rotels own integrated RA-1592 is even the RC-1590 and RB-1582 in one box.

You understand how I stumbled into this thread! :)

So ... need I thus worry and look into other preamps, or ignore these numbers?

Keep in mind... :)
That the pre-amp out spec simply states what its output is for a reference input.. For example, Yamaha specs 1V output based upon a 1V spec input signal, however many source components have a higher output level than 1V. [...]
Bottom line..
Basic spec is simply 1V of gain measured from an input port to pre-out port..
This may well be an A to my own Q.
If only manufacturers provided more info, or put a range of voltages instead of an arbitrary number..

Cheers!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm still confused, lol.

I'm gonna have to read through these replies a few more times tho. I know the answer is in here. I'm just not grasping yet. It's nothing I'm concerned about, but want to learn all the same.

Ryan was such a noob... :p :p

I kid, I kid! Don't even go looking for my first posts now!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I'm still confused, lol.

I'm gonna have to read through these replies a few more times tho. I know the answer is in here. I'm just not grasping yet. It's nothing I'm concerned about, but want to learn all the same.

Ryan was such a noob... :p :p

I kid, I kid! Don't even go looking for my first posts now!
I was... and still am in ways! :p
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
What's so confusing? The lack of detailed specification? :)
 
faiser

faiser

Audiophyte
Well for me the confusing part is Rotel's pre-amp & power amp specs that suggest their components which are marketed as matching are all but compatible.
At least if output voltage should >= input sensitivity.

TIA for demistifying!
 
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