HTPC as an All in One System

[NINaudio]

exactly what I was thinking ADTG! I don't even want to imagine the heat load of a PC/amp combination. Never mind if one part of it fails, do you then have to replace the whole unit, since it's most likely going to be proprietary at that point?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

exactly what I was thinking ADTG! I don't even want to imagine the heat load of a PC/amp combination. Never mind if one part of it fails, do you then have to replace the whole unit, since it's most likely going to be proprietary at that point?

I'm sure others have thought long and hard about this.

It seems to me that these newer high-end Pre-pros (Theta Digital, DataSat, ATI, etc.), do resemble PC with all the circuit boards.

And adding the PC component to this is probably asking for trouble.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm not against it, it's just that's the whole point of this what I am talking about. A PC and amp combined.

What exactly do you see an issue of using 1x Shield HTPC(client+server) and 1x Reciever? Do you hate receivers for some reason?

@AcuDefTechGuy I'm not a pharmacist (my wife is) - I am just an IT pro with 20 years of experience.
I've built plenty of custom PCs, mostly for myself, few for friends and customers. About 10 years ago I stopped doing custom PC builds to general customers, unless it was extremely specific needs like gaming.

HTPC for me small low power (again) small box which can decode in hardware all the recent video/audio codecs. I should not need Core I9 to watch 4k H.265 10bit. Plex server is doing all the work for me, so the client could be tinies of devices (be silent and out of sight)

I am 100% agree with @panteragstk - doing Pre-Pro on PC is a) expensive b) headache and c)asking for trouble (ever enjoyed the sound of windows boot at 100% volume?)

 

[panteragstk]

I've "built" about 20 PCs now. My latest 2 PCs have the Intel i9/GeForce 2080S and Intel i5/GeForce 2060S. And I agree that all PCs are potential headaches.

Me too for one purpose or another, but putting all the components of a pre/pro in one? That's just asking for trouble.

Now, if they could somehow use a PC base as a substrate for a pre/pro (like you mentioned above) and make it actually modular, then that's be something to see. But, like so many modular designs that have existed in the past, the newer/updated cards don't ever seem to materialize or the updates eventually stop. Why? No idea.

So, I decided to add a new level of complexity and add an HTPC VM to my main media server. Granted, I only did this because the main server is too noisy/hot for my office closet (24 drives will do that) so I removed the 4U HTPC from the upstairs rack and replaced it with the server/HTPC VM. Tested everything yesterday and it's flawless so far. If it's not, I add more cores/memory and go.

Today I'm doing the same with my firewall (I have a backup) so I'm down from 4 PCs/Servers (HTPC, Firewall, Main Server, Backup Server) to 2 servers with VMs. Consolidation is cool.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What exactly do you see an issue of using 1x Shield HTPC(client+server) and 1x Reciever? Do you hate receivers for some reason?

@AcuDefTechGuy I'm not a pharmacist (my wife is) - I am just an IT pro with 20 years of experience.
I've built plenty of custom PCs, mostly for myself, few for friends and customers. About 10 years ago I stopped doing custom PC builds to general customers, unless it was extremely specific needs like gaming.

HTPC for me small low power (again) small box which can decode in hardware all the recent video/audio codecs. I should not need Core I9 to watch 4k H.265 10bit. Plex server is doing all the work for me, so the client could be tinies of devices (be silent and out of sight)

I am 100% agree with @panteragstk - doing Pre-Pro on PC is a) expensive b) headache and c)asking for trouble (ever enjoyed the sound of windows boot at 100% volume?)

BTW, my wife is the computer person in my family (Computer Science degree).

As for the Intel i9, it isn’t for 4K video watching. It’s for Handbrake and other video editing.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Me too for one purpose or another, but putting all the components of a pre/pro in one? That's just asking for trouble.

Now, if they could somehow use a PC base as a substrate for a pre/pro (like you mentioned above) and make it actually modular, then that's be something to see. But, like so many modular designs that have existed in the past, the newer/updated cards don't ever seem to materialize or the updates eventually stop. Why? No idea.

So, I decided to add a new level of complexity and add an HTPC VM to my main media server. Granted, I only did this because the main server is too noisy/hot for my office closet (24 drives will do that) so I removed the 4U HTPC from the upstairs rack and replaced it with the server/HTPC VM. Tested everything yesterday and it's flawless so far. If it's not, I add more cores/memory and go.

Today I'm doing the same with my firewall (I have a backup) so I'm down from 4 PCs/Servers (HTPC, Firewall, Main Server, Backup Server) to 2 servers with VMs. Consolidation is cool.

Yeah, most of us are largely in agreement on this subject.

PC-based Pre-pros sound like a good thing at a glance, but they would cost more than most of us are willing to pay.

I think some people might be asking if there is an easy solution to this. But I think it’s a pipe dream.

1. We don’t have the knowledge and skill to make our own PC-AVP at home.
2. If a company makes them for us, we wouldn’t be willing to pay the hefty price.

 

[panteragstk]

Yeah, most of us are largely in agreement on this subject.

PC-based Pre-pros sound like a good thing at a glance, but they would cost more than most of us are willing to pay.

I think some people might be asking if there is an easy solution to this. But I think it’s a pipe dream.

1. We don’t have the knowledge and skill to make our own PC-AVP at home.
2. If a company makes them for us, we wouldn’t be willing to pay the hefty price.

What's interesting about #1 is we all have the knowledge and skill, but we can't do it because of licensing from Dolby and DTS (hell even Auro). If we could get a hardware solution that straight decoded those codecs in an outboard DAC with room correction of our choice, then we'd be talking.

I think a solution like that sort of exists, but they all use software decoders for audio, which don't support full DTS:X or Atmos. 7.1 works just fine and has for many years, but once you get to the new stuff, nothing can decode it except for a dedicated processor.

That, and I'm willing to bet the market for something like this is so small nobody would dare to try to make a product like I'm proposing.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What's interesting about #1 is we all have the knowledge and skill, but we can't do it because of licensing from Dolby and DTS (hell even Auro). If we could get a hardware solution that straight decoded those codecs in an outboard DAC with room correction of our choice, then we'd be talking.

I think a solution like that sort of exists, but they all use software decoders for audio, which don't support full DTS:X or Atmos. 7.1 works just fine and has for many years, but once you get to the new stuff, nothing can decode it except for a dedicated processor.

That, and I'm willing to bet the market for something like this is so small nobody would dare to try to make a product like I'm proposing.

It would definitely take a lot of time, effort, and money. And none of us are willing.

 

[panteragstk]

It would definitely take a lot of time, effort, and money. And none of us are willing.

Not anymore that's for sure. Drivers alone would be a huge pain.

I'm happy with my "new" VMHTPC and it does it's job.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have been watching this thread at a distance, but I will now add my 2 cents worth.

I have considered making my own pre/pro. Mainly because I would like to build a better quality unit. The problem with the industry at the moment is that there is far to much emphasis on features and too much neglect of the quality of the core functions. If it was not for the problems I list below, I'm pretty sure I could build better units. As I have pointed out often the whole reason for building DIY, are two mainly. The first is if you have a requirement for a unit unavailable anywhere, and you have a requirement for that function. The next is when you feel you can do better than anything else available, or as well or better at substantially less cost.

The biggest barrier to an HTPC/preamp is this confounded HDMI and its DRM with HDCP codes. The next problem is codec and upmixers. It is these issues that make what you want to do not a practical proposition.

Now I do however use computers extensively in my system. I built my first DAW in 2002. It was a great performer and I only retired it two years ago. I built a state of the art replacement for it and use it extensively. I would not be without it. Its quality is beyond reproach and I built it a significantly less cost then equivalent commercially available pro units. So that was a win/win.

I built my first HTPC seven years ago. When I moved house and built my new AV room, I rebuilt it. The previous one was developing some hardware issues and I wanted a 4K HTPC.

My big reason is that I don't listen to or watch what most people do. I also want to connect to an over seas server via VPN, so I can get an out of US IP address.

Our only common subscriptions are Neflix and Amazon Prime. Both these have apps on the TV and dedicated button, and audio return back to the pre/pro. Our other TV subscription is Brit Box.

Otherwise they are BPO Digital Concert Hall, Medici TV, Met Player, DSO and SPCO concert library. Now some of these have apps I could ChromeCast, but that is not as handy.

Basically I hate remotes. I find them awkward and all different. I much prefer a remote keyboard. This is far easier and quicker for what I want to do. Also it makes it easy to join professional webinars and other conferences. That is the high road to do it.

So for me the computers are very frequently used, more than any other sources I would say. I can't imagine I wold prefer a Nividia Shiled, or some other contraption with a remote full of buttons.

I have to say I have not found computers in an AV system to be troublesome, in fact a lot less than other things.

I also have an Intel NUC on my wife's system which she loves.

So I believe there is a definite place for computers in an AV system both HTPC and DAW.

 

[theJay]

There must be someone out there who has experience with amps and PCs that could manage this and do it properly.

 

[TLS Guy]

There must be someone out there who has experience with amps and PCs that could manage this and do it properly.

Well you could do it. I would no put the power amps in the same box. That is a bad idea.

There are now 8K mother boards with HDR. There are good power supplies. You could incorporate a board from and HDMI switch for the inputs.

Cyberlink is the premium software.

For the amp if you are going to power 11 power amps from one power supply that would have to be really "beefy". I would not do that. I power my rig with 9 two channel power amps. I actually favor unregulated power supplies for power amps. You will need a computer supply for your pre/pro.

I don't think you can solve the problem of not having a useful up mixer, especially the one from Dolby, which is think is by far the best.

Now you can buy Quad 405 clone boards from China. Whether they are any good or not, I do not know. However you cold make a nice slot in system for those.

I have no idea if they are any good. They are in short supply now, from the Covid 19 pandemic. That might also be a problem. I should point out they are clones of the Quad 405 and not the later Quad 405-2 which is a better amp. If you go on DIY sites though you should be able to upgrade them.

Then you could add trim controls to set channel levels. The neatest way to do it would be to add a control in the feedback loop of the input IC, so that S/N would improve as you turn down gain rather than the reverse.

Anyhow those I my ideas as to how you would go about it, if you really want to.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

So, I decided to add a new level of complexity and add an HTPC VM to my main media server. Granted, I only did this because the main server is too noisy/hot for my office closet (24 drives will do that) so I removed the 4U HTPC from the upstairs rack and replaced it with the server/HTPC VM. Tested everything yesterday and it's flawless so far. If it's not, I add more cores/memory and go.

I am curious how you output video from your HTPC VM to your monitor? I assume your pass-thru a video card and then use that video card (HDMI?) out to your monitor/tv/projector? How long is that cable run?

 

[panteragstk]

I am curious how you output video from your HTPC VM to your monitor? I assume your pass-thru a video card and then use that video card (HDMI?) out to your monitor/tv/projector? How long is that cable run?

I do pass-thru a video card (and it's accompanying sound card). HDMI to the wall is 15' and the HDMI in the wall is 20' if I remember. So far, no degradation in video quality, but if needed, I can shorten the HDMI to the wall.

The chain goes like this HTPC>4' HDMI>Receiver>15' HDMI>wall plug>20' HDMI>Projector. All are high quality Monoprice or Rocketfish ( from Best buy) that is actually a very nice cable. Got it dirt cheap with my brothers discount.

 

[panteragstk]

There must be someone out there who has experience with amps and PCs that could manage this and do it properly.

You can do it, but as @TLS Guy said, you don't put amps in the same case as a PC. They have to be isolated. You could do what @TLS Guy did and use a DAW type HTPC which would get you a very high end audio interface that has excellent AD/DA converters that will sound excellent, but the issue isn't whether or not it will sound good, it's whether or not you can get features like the Dolby or DTS upmixer found in current AVR and Pre/Pro. You can't. Simple as that. Not only that, but even the PowerDVD software linked above (which I've used for many years and is one of the last of it's kind) can't decode and output any of the object based formats. That's what you're missing.

If you want to do a straight 5.1 or 7.1 system, that is easily done with a PC. I've done it. I used a PC sound card capable of 7.1 output and plugged everything into external amps. It worked fine for a while, but there is a lot missing from a set up like that from simply using a regular AVR or Pre/Pro.

Most of us just have a purpose built HTPC that plugs into an AVR or Pre/Pro and external amplification that way we get ALL the bells and whistles. The PC is a source for the rest of the system, not the ENTIRE system.

 

[TLS Guy]

You can do it, but as @TLS Guy said, you don't put amps in the same case as a PC. They have to be isolated. You could do what @TLS Guy did and use a DAW type HTPC which would get you a very high end audio interface that has excellent AD/DA converters that will sound excellent, but the issue isn't whether or not it will sound good, it's whether or not you can get features like the Dolby or DTS upmixer found in current AVR and Pre/Pro. You can't. Simple as that. Not only that, but even the PowerDVD software linked above (which I've used for many years and is one of the last of it's kind) can't decode and output any of the object based formats. That's what you're missing.

If you want to do a straight 5.1 or 7.1 system, that is easily done with a PC. I've done it. I used a PC sound card capable of 7.1 output and plugged everything into external amps. It worked fine for a while, but there is a lot missing from a set up like that from simply using a regular AVR or Pre/Pro.

Most of us just have a purpose built HTPC that plugs into an AVR or Pre/Pro and external amplification that way we get ALL the bells and whistles. The PC is a source for the rest of the system, not the ENTIRE system.

That is absolutely correct what you say.

The problem with this "theJay chap", is he seems to think we a bunch of "green horns born yesterday". In fact those tendering advice here have made a host of "trips around the block."

When you really get down to it, he is a Don Quixote tossing his spear at the windmills. I wish him luck with that.

 

[theJay]

Thanks for your replies. It is clear that you all know what you are talking about and that's a good thing in a forum giving out advice and saves people like me a lot of headaches.

That is absolutely correct what you say.

The problem with this "theJay chap", is he seems to think we a bunch of "green horns born yesterday". In fact those tendering advice here have made a host of "trips around the block."

When you really get down to it, he is a Don Quixote tossing his spear at the windmills. I wish him luck with that.

I don't like the fact you are making assertions about me, implying I think that you are stupid and that I am somehow looking down on you. I'm not exactly sure what your analogy means but I am sure it comes down to my previous sentence in this paragraph.

There have been a number of people who have asked this question over the years and with the way that technology has evolved, to a novice like me, it seems hard to believe that nothing has been brought to market like this.

It is frustrating that something like this can't be made based on the different ways that PCs and AV amplifiers work and are designed.

I have a media nook and it has several shelves in it, including one for my Yamaha AV amplifier. I was hoping I could cut this out of the equation but clearly I don't have the expertise and neither is current generation technology in my favour for such a project.

As I type this I pick up on the fact there has been mention of an external soundcard capable of powering a 5.1 and 7.1 output. That leaves me wondering, how can that be crammed into such a small product compared to an amplifier?

 

[NINaudio]

Thanks for your replies. It is clear that you all know what you are talking about and that's a good thing in a forum giving out advice and saves people like me a lot of headaches.

I don't like the fact you are making assertions about me, implying I think that you are stupid and that I am somehow looking down on you. I'm not exactly sure what your analogy means but I am sure it comes down to my previous sentence in this paragraph.

There have been a number of people who have asked this question over the years and with the way that technology has evolved, to a novice like me, it seems hard to believe that nothing has been brought to market like this.

It is frustrating that something like this can't be made based on the different ways that PCs and AV amplifiers work and are designed.

I have a media nook and it has several shelves in it, including one for my Yamaha AV amplifier. I was hoping I could cut this out of the equation but clearly I don't have the expertise and neither is current generation technology in my favour for such a project.

As I type this I pick up on the fact there has been mention of an external soundcard capable of powering a 5.1 and 7.1 output. That leaves me wondering, how can that be crammed into such a small product compared to an amplifier?

TLSguy is known for his tough love. Don't take it personally, he just speaks his mind to all.

In response to the bolded part of your statement, a soundcard that can output 5.1 or 7.1 doesn't amplify that signal. In a PC, it's usually fed from your soundcard to an external amplifier (usually built into the sub for PC systems) and from there it goes to your speakers. This sin't all that different from an AVR where an onboard chip does the decoding and then sends the signals to the onboard amplifiers (instead of external).

 

[panteragstk]

Thanks for your replies. It is clear that you all know what you are talking about and that's a good thing in a forum giving out advice and saves people like me a lot of headaches.



I don't like the fact you are making assertions about me, implying I think that you are stupid and that I am somehow looking down on you. I'm not exactly sure what your analogy means but I am sure it comes down to my previous sentence in this paragraph.

There have been a number of people who have asked this question over the years and with the way that technology has evolved, to a novice like me, it seems hard to believe that nothing has been brought to market like this.

It is frustrating that something like this can't be made based on the different ways that PCs and AV amplifiers work and are designed.

I have a media nook and it has several shelves in it, including one for my Yamaha AV amplifier. I was hoping I could cut this out of the equation but clearly I don't have the expertise and neither is current generation technology in my favour for such a project.

As I type this I pick up on the fact there has been mention of an external soundcard capable of powering a 5.1 and 7.1 output. That leaves me wondering, how can that be crammed into such a small product compared to an amplifier?

@NINaudio already said it, but I'll go a bit further. You're essentially reinventing the wheel here. Sure, you can do what you're wanting to, but the real question is why? You won't really save any rack space since you'll still have to have an outboard amp. Sure, the PC can do what you want, but you won't save any money doing it that way. It may be a neat project, but in the end it'll be a waste of time. PCs have a place in a home theater, but their job is a source.

Take it from someone who has been hooking their PC up to a receiver as long as that has been possible. My first video card with a composite/s-video output was the first time I ventured into this. I've literally tried everything and can tell you where to put your effort in. Trying to have an HTPC do all audio processing isn't worth your time. Us veterans in this space know that simplifying things is the best way. What can you do that takes the least amount of effort to maintain? That's where your head should be.

 

[theJay]

@NINaudio already said it, but I'll go a bit further. You're essentially reinventing the wheel here. Sure, you can do what you're wanting to, but the real question is why? You won't really save any rack space since you'll still have to have an outboard amp. Sure, the PC can do what you want, but you won't save any money doing it that way. It may be a neat project, but in the end it'll be a waste of time. PCs have a place in a home theater, but their job is a source.

Take it from someone who has been hooking their PC up to a receiver as long as that has been possible. My first video card with a composite/s-video output was the first time I ventured into this. I've literally tried everything and can tell you where to put your effort in. Trying to have an HTPC do all audio processing isn't worth your time. Us veterans in this space know that simplifying things is the best way. What can you do that takes the least amount of effort to maintain? That's where your head should be.

This is the conclusion that is drawn from all the advice given. Nice idea but wont be practical in reality unless they can reinvent the way that amplifiers work to take up much less space that would then enable the hardware to fit alongside the PC hardware and get sufficient cooling.