Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[panteragstk]

I would have looked into the driver- most folded horns are designed to produce low frequencies, but not the range used in modern home theaters. They're also more efficient, so the amp isn't usually driven as hard in order to achieve the high SPL needed for live/outdoor/large venue applications. Is it possible that the driver(s) were 4 Ohm and wired parallel, rather than two drivers with 8 Ohm voice voils?

These were live sound folded horn subs so they were absolutely going for high SPL. They were 8 ohm, but the amp we had them hooked up to couldn't get them nearly as loud as the second amp. Lots of the lowest frequencies seemed to be missing. We just figured the first amp couldn't take it. It was an older Behringer and those were known to be very overrated on power. The second amp was the newer Class D Peavy, which were still cheap, but seemed more capable than the Behringer.

http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/folded-horn-subwoofer/je-36c.html

 

[MalVeauX]

I'm going to have to go with yes based on my anecdotal experience. I have several book shelf speakers, all used in a near field setup and have cycled several amplifiers through them, all of which were way more than enough to drive the fairly efficient bookshelf speakers ranging from 15 watts to 50 watts at 8ohm both channels driven so tons of headroom, but really only needing 1 watt or less to actually be driven to listening level (let's call it 75db). The quality of the components certainly comes into play to an extent. Overall I had one amp that sounded significantly warmer than another amp, and one that sounded quite tinny and cold, even though they both had plenty of power output to drive the speakers to full dynamic range they're capable of in a near field setting.

I have OTL tube based amplifiers that absolutely sound different than solid state amplifiers too. Obviously that should sound different, but while the door is open....

Shouldn't it be possible to measure such a thing? If it sounds different, surely the response would be different when measured? I realize there's literature that supports the idea of a 1/4th dB being perceivable so it would take incredible resolution to truly differentiate things, but maybe some are so profoundly different than it's obvious with repeated averaged measurements?

Very best,

 

[ski2xblack]

Shouldn't it be possible to measure such a thing?

Sure, distortion, both linear (fr) and nonlinear (harmonics) is measurable, as is the output impedance of the amp in question.

You already explained it yourself, kinda sorta..."warmer" vs. "tinny and cold" are frequency response aberrations. So say you use your otl tube amp, whose output impedance is quite a bit above zero, probably several ohms, which (voila!) results in load dependant frequency response aberrations. Even below gross clipping, amps may be nonlinear or contribute audible distortion (particularly the case with tube amps).

Something else to keep in mind: 99.9% of commercial speakers were designed assuming amps with near zero output impedance will be used. Pair such speakers with something like an otl tube amp and the results would be different, likely a bit plump (ringing at woofer resonance freq), rich (low order harmonics, particularly 2nd, which are consonant), and sparkly (as with woofer resonance, load-related fr aberrations). Compare that to a speaker designed specifically for a high output impedance amp (if you can find such a thing*) would of necessity be more damped, and would sound comparatively anemic and lifeless if driven by conventional amps.

*I'm thinking of the fairly stiff wide band drivers, such as the TB W8-1772 I have, or others in the same vein (fostex, lowther...). More lively and fun when paired with the oddball high output impedance amps than the conventional amps IME.

 

[PENG]

I am repeating this for the nth time, the way the question is asked, the only right answer is yes. People should not have voted at all. Sorry for being blunt. . Had the question been asked with some stated conditions included, such as high input imp., low output imp., flat FR, THD+N, imd less than 0.1% etc etc., then I trust the votes would have been overwhelmingly "no", as common sense and logic would prevail.

 

[Pogre]

I am repeating this for the nth time, the way the question is asked, the only right answer is yes. People should not have voted at all. Sorry for being blunt. . Had the question been asked with some stated conditions included, such as high input imp., low output imp., flat FR, THD+N, imd less than 0.1% etc etc., then I trust the votes would have been overwhelmingly "no", as common sense and logic would prevail.

HA! I didn't vote at all for every reason you stated above!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am repeating this for the nth time, the way the question is asked, the only right answer is yes. People should not have voted at all. Sorry for being blunt. . Had the question been asked with some stated conditions included, such as high input imp., low output imp., flat FR, THD+N, imd less than 0.1% etc etc., then I trust the votes would have been overwhelmingly "no", as common sense and logic would prevail.

There should be another option: "who the hell cares, just play some music already."

 

[lovinthehd]

There already was the third option....

 

[3db]

I am repeating this for the nth time, the way the question is asked, the only right answer is yes. People should not have voted at all. Sorry for being blunt. . Had the question been asked with some stated conditions included, such as high input imp., low output imp., flat FR, THD+N, imd less than 0.1% etc etc., then I trust the votes would have been overwhelmingly "no", as common sense and logic would prevail.

I suspect the question posted as is was to promote discussion as its open to all kinds of interpretation. Most of us in the know answered dictating conditions as to why or why not.

 

[PENG]

I suspect the question posted as is was to promote discussion as its open to all kinds of interpretation. Most of us in the know answered dictating conditions as to why or why not.

Of course, but then it defeat the purpose of a poll. Wouldn't it be at least better if just ask why do amp sound different? Then wouldn't it promote even more discussions without producing poll results that is so anecdotal?

 

[3db]

Of course, but then it defeat the purpose of a poll. Wouldn't it be at least better if just ask why do amp sound different? Then wouldn't it promote even more discussions without producing poll results that is so anecdotal?

I see your point. However polls are far from accurate and the ensuing arguments by those anecdotalists (if there is such a word) would still come forth debunking blind and dbt test validity, etc. Look at the poll, who makes the best speaker. .. it just a popularity contest, nothing more.

 

[PerVirtuous]

I used an Onkyo amp for months. Then it died. I replaced it with a Denon. The difference was easily heard. Same source, same speakers, same positions. The Denon had deeper, cleaner bass and more defined high end.

Tube amps sound different than solid state, but I would not say they sound better. Back in the day, the best amps were big bulky tube amps. I think people who grew up with this sound became snobs and now prefer that sound, not because it is better, but it is what they learned to hear. With the improvements in speakers and amplifiers, you no longer need to throw power at them to get good sound. I think it is like Coke and Pepsi. Neither is really better, but some like one over the other. That is how it is supposed to work. I personally believe solid state better recreates chamber music. The instruments sound more live. The tube amps better reproduce electronic music, which usually has intentional warm distortion.

It is much like fine wine. Some are noticeably better than others, but the more upscale you go, the more subtle the difference. There is little difference between a $20,000 and a $40,000 audio system. Most people could not hear any difference; or taste any difference between a $200 and $400 bottle of wine, Good enough is good enough. Don't chase an ideal. Chase the sound you like.

 

[ATLAudio]

I used an Onkyo amp for months. Then it died. I replaced it with a Denon. The difference was easily heard. Same source, same speakers, same positions. The Denon had deeper, cleaner bass and more defined high end.

Tube amps sound different than solid state, but I would not say they sound better. Back in the day, the best amps were big bulky tube amps. I think people who grew up with this sound became snobs and now prefer that sound, not because it is better, but it is what they learned to hear. With the improvements in speakers and amplifiers, you no longer need to throw power at them to get good sound. I think it is like Coke and Pepsi. Neither is really better, but some like one over the other. That is how it is supposed to work. I personally believe solid state better recreates chamber music. The instruments sound more live. The tube amps better reproduce electronic music, which usually has intentional warm distortion.

It is much like fine wine. Some are noticeably better than others, but the more upscale you go, the more subtle the difference. There is little difference between a $20,000 and a $40,000 audio system. Most people could not hear any difference; or taste any difference between a $200 and $400 bottle of wine, Good enough is good enough. Don't chase an ideal. Chase the sound you like.

Cost matters, but only to an extent. Building a sonically transparent amp is fairly cheap, easy to make, and somewhat common. The goal in reproduction should be transparency of the source to the speaker terminals; which is easy to achieve. Many exotic and premium priced amplifiers will have very modest intentional coloration, but this is silly for a number of reasons. If signal processing or tone control is desired it makes far more sense to adjust that to taste with the actual tone controls or DSP system, not baked into an amplifier which can’t be adjusted.


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[VMPS-TIII]

I installed the Hegel H90 yesterday in my office and the depth of the sound is noticeable from the old Denon Avr 600 it replaced. The rim shots crack and the dynamic range is extended. The Hegel H90 is only a 60 watt per channel stereo unit, yet my volume control is usually found between 38-44 for my normal listening levels with this amp. This integrated amp offers a DAC, Apple Airplay, along with six inputs for various sources. The H90 normally sells for $2,000 but it's on sale now for $1399 and ListenUp sent me a 10% off coupon just for signing up for their email blasts. That triggered me to go ahead with the purchase which ended up being $1259 shipped.

The hardware is amazingly high quality. From the giant copper transformer that looks larger than the one in my Denon 4500 to the click of the source/volume controls as they move. Airplay works seamlessly. Just turn on Tidal on the Mac and select H90 under the speaker icon and your off and running. The volume control on H90 is also controlled by the volume level set on the MacBook Pro.

While I'm not use to splurging on a fancy amp from Norway, this amp offers a lot of power, fun and oozes with quality and thoughtful implementation. Bent Holter of Hegel makes quality products.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Beautiful amp VMPS-TIII. My neighbor has one almost like yours.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, we all know all amps sound differently. Duh! I can hear the night-and-day significant difference a mile away and blindfolded since I have golden ears. Don't be jealous and call me a liar if you're not blessed with golden ears.

I also have golden eyes so I can see a huge difference between 8K vs 1080p a mile away. Don't be jealous either. But that's another thread.

So the only real question is, how chocolaty, how minty, how sweet, and just exactly how airy do the different amps sound?

My Yamaha MX-A5000 11Ch amp sounds exactly 19.46% minty, 20.73% chocolaty, 19.86% airy, and 39.95% sweet.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Beautiful amp VMPS-TIII. My neighbor has one almost like yours.

Which Emotiva model is this? Thanks!

 

[Auditor55]

Well, we all know all amps sound differently. Duh! I can hear the night-and-day significant difference a mile away and blindfolded since I have golden ears. Don't be jealous and call me a liar if you're not blessed with golden ears.

I also have golden eyes so I can see a huge difference between 8K vs 1080p a mile away. Don't be jealous either. But that's another thread.

So the only real question is, how chocolaty, how minty, how sweet, and just exactly how airy do the different amps sound?

My Yamaha MX-A5000 11Ch amp sounds exactly 19.46% minty, 20.73% chocolaty, 19.86% airy, and 39.95% sweet.

I can see dead people!

 

[Pogre]

"More attack"... ha ha! Silly talk. I'd love to get you guys in a controlled setting and pick between these "night and day" differences in a DBT. I don't think you'd be able to tell one from another. Until then it's just very sight biased, subjective experiences influenced by preconceived expectations.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can see dead people!

Okay, Morbid Eyes, I'm not jealous of you at all. You can keep all the dead people to yourself.

The question is, do you also have Morbid Ears and can hear dead people?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Which Emotiva model is this? Thanks!

I think it is this model:

TA-100 Stereo Preamp/DAC/Tuner With Integrated Amplifier

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