Audiophile Cable Synergy: Real or Snake Oil?

Is Cable Synergy Real?

  • Yes. Cables make or break the sound of a system.

    Votes: 4 7.3%
  • No. Cable Synergy is snake oil.

    Votes: 51 92.7%
  • I go wireless, no cables.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    55
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Ha...
I do know of one speaker designer that insists Mil Spec Wire is the best for his designs and offers it as an upgrade. That would include Space Vehilcles, as well as Military Aircraft, etc. ;)
Just for his designs, eh? Figures.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
I was reading Paul's rebuttal where he attempts to dismiss the value of measured fidelity, and suggests that less than accurate measurements are superior, and therefore we shouldn’t trust the best measurements. It’s the oldest parlor game in their playbook, so let’s break it down for the absurdity that it is.

He mentioned that they did a complete benchmark on their new Steller phono stage and that it initially measured as transparent, but only for it to fail in some sort of admittedly less than controlled listening test done by some sort of professional “listening team.” He goes on to mention that this "listening team" (not identified as scientists or engineers) explained to the engineer (who is an engineer) that he had to adjust feedback loops, and bias that would provide a preferred coloration. It was only at that point that it sounded better to the “listening team” with, again, their admittedly less than controlled listening test.

Nearly all exotic component and cable makers beg the question as to how their offerings could come close to being universally beneficial, especially when they are always subtle. Of course, they would want their products to be sold to as many customers, so any offering would need to be as close to universal as possible. However, claiming to be able to do such with a subtle coloration raises a litany of questions.

Since PS Audio has supplied us with a subtle coloration that they think is superior, let's review some colorations in audio reproduction that are not subtle, but will instead be audibly and measurably gargantuan;

1. Speaker selection
2. Room, and room treatment selection
3. Listener hearing health (which is determined by disease and or age, not the presence of "golden ears")
4. Where the speaker and listener are positioned and located.
5. Media selection

I have no doubt that a tone adjustment (when I say tone, I mean any diversion from transparency), in some fashion can have an isolated benefit; with one song, played on the same speakers, in the same room, and listened to by the same person etc. It wouldn't be the least bit surprising for that one person to even pass a DBT in this very narrow hypothetical experiment.

These situational variables change from user to user because their environment will certainly differ across the board, let's remember, each one of those changes are not subtle, so this should be enough to reveal their carnival con for what it is, but here's the kicker; number 5, media selection. This is the caveat that the typical pseudoscience promoter will assume that no one stops to think about, and they might even be blind to it themselves. As Alan Parsons once said, "an audiophile is a person who uses your music to listen to their gear."

These marketers are trapped in a snare here. It's all about selling gear that is supposedly better and better; spend more get better. Get this new design, it is more revealing than last year, etc. Music media has no recording, engineering, and production standard, or anything close to it. What if the musician, engineer, or producer also likes that distortion effect made by eliminating whatever feedback loop that PS Audio’s “listening team” suggested, and incorporates that into their recording? Well you've just added more, and the result of this nonadjustable, undefeatable tone control not only harms fidelity but creates a new coloration, and a new coloration every time you change the record.

How do these folks believe they can add subtle coloration that will remotely be universal in reproduction? Here's what's more likely the case. The coloration provided while likely audibly different, doesn't provide a genuine preference. This would have been clear if the PS Audio “listening team” used properly controlled testing. Not only DBT, which Paul dismisses without reason. I'm sure I could guess as to why since the typical audio pseudoscience promoter has the same reasons; usually dubious unfounded claims of listener stress among other things. However, a proper test would also be level matched, and with immediate switching etc that he never mentions.

PS Audio keeps their change subtle so that it's merely noticed if it is even noticed at all. They can market their change as being purer, (and they do) since in their fantasy world, the less feedback loops the better, which is a typical misguided claim from more than one manufacturer. Or, since their customers typically believe from their own long road of false discovery, that their uncontrolled listening can be done without bias, (which is impossible) they will associate that subtle change (assuming it’s there) with some sort of opinion in regards to preference due to conscious and subconscious bias that can’t just be turned off; it has to be controlled.

It’s clear from the review posted below that there is very little audible deviation from the most linear and transparent with this absurdly priced, $2500 phono stage, at least when properly used. It has a very powerful output stage, and three adjustable gains and MC/MM selections depending on which cartridge used; none of which justify such a price tag. With the gain turned high, a coloration presenting a second order harmonic is provided that is still 55 dB below the fundamental. That is nearly inaudible, and with a gain that high providing a higher noise floor, that will be more audible. For the record, modern day DSP plugins can provide any level of harmonic colorations you’d like for a fraction of the cost.

So, like any other claims of preferred colorations, and system synergy, they are revealing the obvious. They seek to create a wallet worm which suggests that only product selection matters while begging the question that everything else is somehow more or less constant. The customer gets comfortable with the false idea that all gear, theirs included, is deficient in some way, and needs to be optimized with surrounding gear, which is also deficient, but when combined, the audio fairy will visit at night and bring them into sonic bliss. Holding aside the absurdity of this Rube Goldberg tone control, the fact that sound can be transparent from the source material, to the speaker terminals, with far more affordable gear, is a concept they seldom realize or quickly dismiss when suggested. Eventually the customer wants something different, like speakers, or moves into a different house, and the whole carnival con comes back to town with the same plan as last year; to take money from the customer’s wallet and put it in their own.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-phono-phono-preamplifier-measurements
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
At first I was gonna be all Johnny Blaze: "Flame On!"

;)

I appreciate your perspective!

:cool:
I believe that catch phrase was uttered by Johnny Storm the Human Torch of the Fantastic Four. Just trying to keep it real for the late great Stan Lee. :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I believe that catch phrase was uttered by Johnny Storm the Human Torch of the Fantastic Four. Just trying to keep it real for the late great Stan Lee. :)
Another Marvel character, aka Ghost Rider....
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I believe that catch phrase was uttered by Johnny Storm the Human Torch of the Fantastic Four. Just trying to keep it real for the late great Stan Lee. :)
There was a bit of a Wu Tang reference in there too. Method Man uses the side moniker of Johnny Blaze, and is well known for his old-school Comic Book references. :)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Yep, it does.
Well there are lots of different mil specs, so only some do.
Yeah, part of my query was "what is so special?" I got no direct reply. I don't know what gauge he uses as hook-up wire, either, but that said: he was very insistent. :)
His Special Edition charges include Mil-Spec in the build (as well as any possible driver upgrades, XO upgrades, Binding Post upgrades, etc).

After many explorations, I found likely culprits at some of the Mil-Spec wire companies, though I never pursued getting quotes.

Why?

I don't need wiring that can survive the temperatures of Atmospheric Re-entry or SR-71 speeds... or anything else. ;) If anything, it seems that Driver manufacturing "should" consider Mil-Spec for voice coils. :p But seriously.

(This is one of the things that turned me off from following up on this particular designer.)

(The rest is history: see below.)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Not really unless NASA is interested how cables sound in their spaceships or satellites. ;):D
I'll say this- if someone produces cabling that can withstand the requirements used in the satellite/space industries, they're not gonna be cheap, but THEY WILL reject interference.

Speaking of satellites and things that need to be absolutely reliable and 'hardened' against nuclear EMPs, a friend worked on missile guidance systems for over 20 years and he looked at me like I had three heads when I told him about AudioQuest's cables that use batteries for, well, apparently they feel the need to use batteries. The guys in his band were Electrical Engineers and they asked WTF? None of them use anything special for cabling in any of their systems.

Things that make you go "Hmmm".
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't need wiring that can survive the temperatures of Atmospheric Re-entry or SR-71 speeds... or anything else. ;) If anything, it seems that Driver manufacturing "should" consider Mil-Spec for voice coils. :p But seriously.

(This is one of the things that turned me off from following up on this particular designer.)

(The rest is history: see below.)
It's not the speed of an SR-71, it's the higher levels of radiation at high altitude. The speed doesn't affect anything, although high acceleration can fatigue wiring if it's allowed to move.

Since you mentioned SR-71 speed, check out this link-

 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
It's not the speed of an SR-71, it's the higher levels of radiation at high altitude. The speed doesn't affect anything, although high acceleration can fatigue wiring if it's allowed to move.

Since you mentioned SR-71 speed, check out this link-

Haven’t had a chance to watch the vid yet...
Iirc, the cockpit surfaces, with air conditioning, were still hot enough for the pilots to feel through their suit. Uncooled, I believe temperatures inside could rise above boiling point. :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Haven’t had a chance to watch the vid yet...
Iirc, the cockpit surfaces, with air conditioning, were still hot enough for the pilots to feel through their suit. Uncooled, I believe temperatures inside could rise above boiling point. :)
The skin had pleats, to allow for expansion and they had to create new glass compounds, glues, alloys & paints to withstand the heat. The leading edges would approach red hot- well past boiling.

The cool part about using so much Titanium- the CIA set up a dummy company that bought this metal during the Cold War because the USSR was the main source.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
It's not the speed of an SR-71, it's the higher levels of radiation at high altitude. The speed doesn't affect anything, although high acceleration can fatigue wiring if it's allowed to move.

Since you mentioned SR-71 speed, check out this link-

Now, that needs good cabling that will enable good coms between pilot and navigator. Very Hi-Fidelity in the conversation band. Not sure they listen to music in their boring cruising times though. :D
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Don’t know about any other members on AH, anyone who has watched Genes video should have noticed that Gene wasn’t using Cue cards or that it wasn’t Scripted, expect for the Editing, nice job goes to the film Editor! pop ups here and there which I found to be Entertaining.
Real Truth in Audio isn’t always Easy to explain. What really gets me about all the Snake Oil in the Audio cable industry and those who sell it. Can not or will not, (lose sales) Prove Gene wrong! Who in the High-End cable Industry is willing to take Gene up on his Challenge to prove him wrong. Gene has dropped the gauntlet let’s see if any brave seller or maker’s take Gene up on his offer to be proven wrong or them right. Funny how no one has step up and Challenged Gene. The best any of those Snake oil plugs can do is Attack, harass and Hide.
 
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G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Already saw it. I think more PS Audio hardware needs testing after seeing results of asr's testing. :)
What are your thoughts than? Did you enjoy the video? Was it Informative? Do you believe Genes Presentation of high-end :rolleyes: cable’s give Enough information to Credit or discredit (snake oil) cables?:)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Now, that needs good cabling that will enable good coms between pilot and navigator. Very Hi-Fidelity in the conversation band. Not sure they listen to music in their boring cruising times though. :D
And how would the instruments or controls operate if the wiring failed?

Boring cruising times? Would you be bored if you were flying so fast that you could go from Dulles to Edwards AFB in 69 minutes?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
And how would the instruments or controls operate if the wiring failed?

Boring cruising times? Would you be bored if you were flying so fast that you could go from Dulles to Edwards AFB in 69 minutes?
Less bored than if it was 6 hours. ;)

Wire failure is different from audio fidelity on it.
 
A

Aerial Acoustic Guy

Audiophyte
Hi Gene, which Mogami cable would you recommend for XLR interconnects (between pre/pro and amp) 2549, 2534, 2791, or other? Thanks in advance.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Already saw it. I think more PS Audio hardware needs testing after seeing results of asr's testing. :)
Chris, PS Audio sellers of audio gear. ARS, a Spectrum analyzer? a test unit that Gene hasn’t used before. From Gene ‘s video he would more than Welcome them to send in anything for testing.
Not all maker’s of audio Products are happy to do so. The Department of Commerce if they are the ones who watch over Scrupulous companies that Pray on Consumers with Faulty Products with Design defect’s should or just won’t do anything to Protect unsuspecting consumers. It’s done all the time in the Automotive industry with air bag recalls of Takata makers of those, Ticking time bomb air bags.
My point why should Scrupulous dealers or Manufacturers of audio video makers of products get a pass. Isn’t that the same as say Tobacco industry same thing Different pile of BS. Here these tast great make you feel Fantastic and look cool but oh we didn’t post test Results than 30 years you’ll die from diseases from using our products. My point being Tobacco industry Lied for Decades before something was done our Government Mandated a Warning to be put on the side of each pack of cigarettes. Why not something alone the those Guidelines to warrant unsuspecting Consumers.
 
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