Any opinions on good cheap av receivers?

[sizzam]

Plus keep in mind most avrs only provide a power rating for 2ch driven, although all channels driven ratings aren't all that meaningful either. If you want an all channels driven rating you generally need to find a bench test of such. Here's one for the Sony for example https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-str-dn1080-av-receiver-review-test-bench (perhaps the Sony spec is for the power supply, or at least close).

I figured the power draw (assuming that avrs have an efficiency standard) was a good indicator for the overall powersupply oomph.

 

[Pogre]

Plus keep in mind most avrs only provide a power rating for 2ch driven, although all channels driven ratings aren't all that meaningful either. If you want an all channels driven rating you generally need to find a bench test of such. Here's one for the Sony for example https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-str-dn1080-av-receiver-review-test-bench (perhaps the Sony spec is for the power supply, or at least close).

Yup. Third party measurements are always most desirable. Most third parties don't have a stake in the results or feel a need to manipulate numbers to make them look more impressive. 2 channel ratings are the most meaningful, at 8 ohms, imo. Sometimes you have to really look for that specific specification too. They like to bury it in between 6 ohm and 4 ohm ratings, all ch driven ratings and other things that have no real world meaning, but look awesome on paper.

There's a whole lot more to great sound than the power specs. Once you have sufficient power you're done there. No need to look for more unless you're hitting limits all the time. After that it's all about the speakers, the room, subwoofage, eq (if used) and how you place and blend everything together.

 

[sizzam]

I wouldn't put so much focus on power specs. Look for the connections and features you want at a price you can do. If you're that concerned about power look for something with preouts and plan for a separate amp down the road. The stuff you're looking at and the numbers you're spitting out look like they used 4 different methods to manipulate the power specs and none look overly accurate.

Main features for an avr for me would include:
*Connections modern enough for my gear, or future gear
*Enough connections for all of my speakers, or future speakers
*Good room correction
*Full set of pre outs for additional amplification
*Decent warranty
*Sufficient power

Note that power is at the bottom of my list. That's because pretty much any decent receiver with a full set of pre out's and advanced room correction will have sufficient power for all but the most difficult speakers, and if power is a concern I have the flexibility to add more amplification should it come down to it. If you're after sound quality make sure you have the right speakers and look for good room correction. I really like what XT32 does to my system. Really wakes things up. Which is something I think you're hoping to achieve through amplification. It doesn't work like that.

i look for avrs that offer as many of the features i need balanced with good per channel power as I don't have very efficient speakers.

on the other hand finding a avr receiver that can pump out the power it claims seems to be a task all in its own.

 

[sizzam]

Yup. Third party measurements are always most desirable. Most third parties don't have a stake in the results or feel a need to manipulate numbers to make them look more impressive. 2 channel ratings are the most meaningful, at 8 ohms, imo. Sometimes you have to really look for that specific specification too. They like to bury it in between 6 ohm and 4 ohm ratings, all ch driven ratings and other things that have no real world meaning, but look awesome on paper.

There's a whole lot more to great sound than the power specs. Once you have sufficient power you're done there. No need to look for more unless you're hitting limits all the time. After that it's all about the speakers, the room, eq (if used) and how you place and blend everything together.

well to give the speakers some extra headroom for that midbass punch and the highs not getting drowned out by the rest (my current receiver suffers that at times) I want plenty of power but I am not versed enough to know how to set up a rack system yet, nor do i have the budget for it (if crown amps are the price i would be expecting for good quality) that being said the sony avr looks great it has a nice mic for sonys version of pioneer's mcacc settings (whatever sony calls their auto calibration software). Oh and lastly the sony was only 400$ used so i bought it this morning.

 

[Pogre]

i look for avrs that offer as many of the features i need balanced with good per channel power as I don't have very efficient speakers.

on the other hand finding a avr receiver that can pump out the power it claims seems to be a task all in its own.

You just have to know what to look for. HD and I are offering some advice there, and I hope it helps. I know how confusing all of this can be. I've been obsessed for years, looking stuff up, learning every day and I still get confused!

Another thing to consider is, it takes doubling your power to gain 3 dB in volume. So when you compare the difference between 100w and 140w you're looking at less than 1.5 dB difference. Check out this SPL calculator. It's not the absolute in accuracy, but it will give you a good demonstration when you play with the power numbers and calculate the differences. Just fill in the boxes and click "calculate". Go ahead and get ridiculous with it too! Punch in 20000 watts once, lol. Have some fun!

 

[lovinthehd]

Figure class AB amps are in the range of 50-60% efficient (can be significantly higher for class D but few avrs have such), plus the avr has other power needs for general operation. If your speakers are particularly hard to drive/less sensiptive then an external amp is likely a better way to go, so an avr with pre-outs can give you better flexibility in that regard. Some of the flagship avrs have decent power sections, tho. I've got several of the Crown XLS amps, good value.

 

[sizzam]

You just have to know what to look for. HD and I are offering some advice there, and I hope it helps. I know how confusing all of this can be. I've been obsessed for years, looking stuff up, learning every day and I still get confused!

Another thing to consider is, it takes doubling your power to gain 3 dB in volume. So when you compare the difference between 100w and 140w you're looking at less than 1.5 dB difference. Check out this SPL calculator. It's not the absolute in accuracy, but it will give you a good demonstration when you play with the power numbers and calculate the differences. Just fill in the boxes and click "calculate". Go ahead and get ridiculous with it too! Punch in 20000 watts once, lol. Have some fun!

well give or take a few decibles but im looking at 115.2 decibles-ish with the new receiver vs 111.2 decibels from my current one. but the real reason i decided on the sony was the extras like the better autocorrection software and the more up to date ui and whatnot.

 

[sizzam]

Figure class AB amps are in the range of 50-60% efficient (can be significantly higher for class D but few avrs have such), plus the avr has other power needs for general operation. If your speakers are particularly hard to drive/less sensiptive then an external amp is likely a better way to go, so an avr with pre-outs can give you better flexibility in that regard. Some of the flagship avrs have decent power sections, tho. I've got several of the Crown XLS amps, good value.

well they are not that thirsty id say around 89 sensitivity is a good gauge for them at worst so a avr with a max output of 90ish watts per channel "should" be decent enough for the job of an occasional movie or vinyl sesh

 

[Pogre]

Figure class AB amps are in the range of 50-60% efficient (can be significantly higher for class D but few avrs have such), plus the avr has other power needs for general operation. If your speakers are particularly hard to drive/less sensiptive then an external amp is likely a better way to go, so an avr with pre-outs can give you better flexibility in that regard. Some of the flagship avrs have decent power sections, tho. I've got several of the Crown XLS amps, good value.

Another great point!

IF power really is that much of a concern then the focus should be on pre out's and plan for a separate amp. A powerful one, say a minimum of 200 wpc at 8 ohm. You're not going to gain anything meaningful power-wise from one avr over another. The Crown amps are a great choice on a budget. From everything I've seen they sound just as good as any "audiophile" amps, tho fan noise can be an issue for some. It wouldn't be for me at my distance.

 

[sizzam]

Another great point!

IF power really is that much of a concern then the focus should be on pre out's and plan for a separate amp. A powerful one, say a minimum of 200 wpc at 8 ohm. You're not going to gain anything meaningful power-wise from one avr over another. The Crown amps are a great choice on a budget. From everything I've seen they sound just as good as any "audiophile" amps, tho fan noise can be an issue for some. It wouldn't be for me at my distance.

the issue then becomes i dont know how to set up a rack style system not to mention how much $$$ id be looking at for each seperate stereo or mono amp for my humble 5.5 system then theres the whole aspect of finding a rack to put them in and where to set them up at for optimal speaker wire management.

all in all if nothing else a avr makes it insanely accesseble to someone like me whos new to this whole audio enthusiast business

 

[lovinthehd]

well they are not that thirsty id say around 89 sensitivity is a good gauge for them at worst so a avr with a max output of 90ish watts per channel "should" be decent enough for the job of an occasional movie or vinyl sesh

Depends at what level you want to listen at and how far from the speakers, or how much headroom you want, sure 90wpc may be fine or even more than enough....that spl calculator Pogre linked is a handy tool for approximating needs (keep in mind sensitivity specs aren't often all that accurate let alone their impedance ratings).

The Crown XLS fan noise I've never had an issue with, even with my ear right up to one. I use them in my living room and bedroom in open shelving....

 

[Pogre]

well they are not that thirsty id say around 89 sensitivity is a good gauge for them at worst so a avr with a max output of 90ish watts per channel "should" be decent enough for the job of an occasional movie or vinyl sesh

Are you saying your speakers are 89 dB? That's actually pretty good! Mine are 87 or 88, I'd have to look... but anyhoo...

You do realize that 111 dB exceeds reference levels and listening at those levels can result in permanent hearing damage? Along with that calculator is a chart, if you scroll down, that gives examples of loudness at given spl along with the osha safety guidelines. Which, btw, doesn't mean you won't still suffer damage. It's more of an absolute limit right before deaf!

Hearing Protection and Listening Safety

This article discusses the importance of hearing safety and how to combat tinnitus using active hearing aids and soundscapes. Listen for a lifetime by not abusing your ears to enjoy true hi-fi.

www.audioholics.com

 

[sizzam]

Depends at what level you want to listen at and how far from the speakers, or how much headroom you want, sure 90wpc may be fine or even more than enough....that spl calculator Pogre linked is a handy tool for approximating needs (keep in mind sensitivity specs aren't often all that accurate let alone their impedance ratings).

The Crown XLS fan noise I've never had an issue with, even with my ear right up to one. I use them in my living room and bedroom in open shelving....

well i think if the spl calculator is much to go by 114ish decibels is loud enough to make the neighbors complain in my apartment so there is that.

 

[sizzam]

Are you saying your speakers are 89 dB? That's actually pretty good! Mine are 87 or 88, I'd have to look... but anyhoo...

You do realize that 111 dB exceeds reference levels and listening at those levels can result in permanent hearing damage? Along with that calculator is a chart, if you scroll down, that gives examples of loudness at given spl along with the osha safety guidelines. Which, btw, doesn't mean you won't still suffer damage. It's more of an absolute limit right before deaf!

Hearing Protection and Listening Safety

This article discusses the importance of hearing safety and how to combat tinnitus using active hearing aids and soundscapes. Listen for a lifetime by not abusing your ears to enjoy true hi-fi.

www.audioholics.com

good to know that if I want to i can deafen myself at anytime i feel it

but for real though i wont be turning it up that loud just having the power to properly eq the mids and highs and having the better software for flattening the response curve will make me happy

 

[Pogre]

well i think if the spl calculator is much to go by 114ish decibels is loud enough to make the neighbors complain in my apartment so there is that.

114-ish decibels is getting close to the threshold of pain. You're gonna have bigger problems than pissing your neighbors off if you listen that loud for any length of meaningful time...

 

[lovinthehd]

the issue then becomes i dont know how to set up a rack style system not to mention how much $$$ id be looking at for each seperate stereo or mono amp for my humble 5.5 system then theres the whole aspect of finding a rack to put them in and where to set them up at for optimal speaker wire management.

all in all if nothing else a avr makes it insanely accesseble to someone like me whos new to this whole audio enthusiast business

Not sure what you mean by setting up a rack particularly or even optimal speaker wire management....the Crowns don't need a rack particularly....I don't use one, just multi shelf stands. Nothing much different about connecting speaker wire to the amp vs the avr.

You have 5 subs?! In an apartment?!

 

[sizzam]

Not sure what you mean by setting up a rack particularly or even optimal speaker wire management....the Crowns don't need a rack particularly....I don't use one, just multi shelf stands. Nothing much different about connecting speaker wire to the amp vs the avr.

You have 5 subs?! In an apartment?!

mayhapse

but on that note i figured id need a stereo amp per pair of speakers and a mono amp powerful enough to drive all 5 subs so id be looking at a minimum of 4 amps i dont know how much that is in $$$ but its definitely more than the 400$ I dropped on this decent avr.

114-ish decibels is getting close to the threshold of pain. You're gonna have bigger problems than pissing your neighbors off if you listen that loud for any length of meaningful time...

im not actually planning on playing a concert for the neighbors and if i was i wouldnt be in the room while doing it

 

[Pogre]

but for real though i wont be turning it up that loud just having the power to properly eq the mids and highs and having the better software for flattening the response curve will make me happy

Which is exactly why this focus on power is a little bit misplaced. You already bought the avr. I haven't looked it up yet, but 400 used isn't bad if it's a top of the line model and within a generation or 2 of being current, if not current.

If you'd have asked first I would have suggested this Denon AVR X3500H on Amazon, brand new for $599, or you can get a refurb 3300 at A4L for $499. I've bought from them a few times and the items all showed up, well packaged and looked brand new. Even smelled new!

 

[Pogre]

mayhapse

but on that note i figured id need a stereo amp per pair of speakers and a mono amp powerful enough to drive all 5 subs so id be looking at a minimum of 4 amps i dont know how much that is in $$$ but its definitely more than the 400$ I dropped on this decent avr.




im not actually planning on playing a concert for the neighbors and if i was i wouldnt be in the room while doing it

5 subs?! You have 5 passive subwoofers in your system? You need more than a mono amp to drive all those! How do you figure you'd need 4 amps?? Where are you getting this information from?

You could buy a single 2 or 3 channel amp for your front speakers and be done.

 

[sizzam]

Which is exactly why this focus on power is a little bit misplaced. You already bought the avr. I haven't looked it up yet, but 400 used isn't bad if it's a top of the line model and within a generation or 2 of being current, if not current.

If you'd have asked first I would have suggested this Denon AVR X3500H on Amazon, brand new for $599, or you can get a refurb 3300 at A4L for $499. I've bought from them a few times and the items all showed up, well packaged and looked brand new. Even smelled new!

the denon and sony seems to be on par specs and features wise but im pretty sure the sony was released in 2017 and was well reviewed from what little i saw