Amplifier Feedback Good or Bad?

Is Too Much Negative Feedback in Audio Amplifiers Bad?

  • Yes. The best sounding amps use less or no feedback.

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • No. The best sounding and performaning amps use lots of feedback.

    Votes: 10 50.0%
  • What's feedback feedback feedback feedback....?

    Votes: 7 35.0%

  • Total voters
    20
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Nope no big ears
Well, that's just too bad, Mike!

If you had bigger ears, you could be enjoying amps with No Negative Feedback that have Frequency Response of 0.0Hz-200kHz +/- 0.1dB. :D
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Yeah, last time I gave myself a self-test, I think I could only hear between 30Hz-16kHz. And that's probably stretching it a little bit. Probably more like 32Hz-15kHz. :D
I've done some testing with folks before, including myself. It's really important that you are absolutely certain that your reference source is adequate. I was using headphones in the first round from Sennheiser (HD600's) assuming these highly regarded headphones had a good response from below 20hz to above 20khz and that this would be fine. Turns out that was incorrect and they had both a lack of deep bass and rolled off highs.

Since then I've obtained headphone measurement gear that is at least good enough to assess as reference the speakers and headphones. I've also taken to using accepted standards of testing headphones like the Etymotics (and there is not a special DSP curve that has been validated to flatten out their response for audiology testing).

All to say that, when I retested myself, the results were dramatically different depending on which headphones I used. I've not had a chance to test anyone else since getting all of this. I might have James come over at some point to see what happens.

All of my measurements for headphones and speakers have largely shown that, in a room (for subs) and on my measurement rig for headphones, most are producing harmonics about as loud or louder than the fundamental. I have two subwoofers in my posession for which that is not true and one headphone set. The Headphone isn't able to reach sufficiently loud however for proper testing.

Since I own a lot of decent gear, I have to surmise from this that many peoples speakers and headphones probably aren't adequate to reliably test 20hz and below accurately. Only my 18" ported sub could do 16hz with sufficiently low distortion at reasonable outputs and frankly there is an audible chuff you can hear that I think would clue someone into thinking they are hearing it when they aren't.

Just because a system measures flat to 10hz doesn't mean its producing sufficiently noise free sound at 10hz to do auditory testing of such frequencies. I honestly would question anyone who says they know they can hear below 20hz.

For myself, I am not usually able to hear 20hz, but based on threshold testing, I would need to be able to produce probably around 80dB clean at 20hz and an unknown level higher than 80dB at 16hz for it to be barely audible. That turns out to be pretty loud for a lot of subs, even in room, I believe I have 3 that meet the criteria and only one, the 18, that I think would actually be clean enough for a reference source. Among my headphones, I have only 1 pair that is sufficiently clean at that threshold at 20hz. Nothing that is producing much output below 20hz with low enough distortion. I think part of the problem might be that most subs have a 3rd harmonic that dominates at those frequencies, that is 60hz, and the threshold of audibility is about 20+ dB's lower at 60hz than at 20hz. So the distortion needs to be more than 20dB down from the fundamental in the 3rd harmonic. Giving some buffer, that means less than 5% 3rd harmonic at 20hz at 80dB. Many subs can't do that.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Well, that's just too bad, Mike!

If you had bigger ears, you could be enjoying amps with No Negative Feedback that have Frequency Response of 0.0Hz-200kHz +/- 0.1dB. :D
why would I need big ears in the first place to here Negative feedback? It’s not like I’ll ever spend 8G’s on a Denon pre-pro with No negative feedback that’ll ended up being used to hold remotes for a Karaoke machine. Don’t need big ears for that just a hole in the Wallet Ouch! :p;)
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Gotta be careful with those bends, or the electrons will shoot right out and hit something else. If you ever hear a slight 'ping' sound inside, that's what's happening.

True story.
Is that's what that is what I heard? I tried to look for it but never discovered what it was. Thanks. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
why would I need big ears in the first place to here Negative feedback? It’s not like I’ll ever spend 8G’s on a Denon pre-pro with No negative feedback that’ll ended up being used to hold remotes for a Karaoke machine. Don’t need big ears for that just a hole in the Wallet Ouch! :p;)
Oh so my Denon AVP-A1HDCI and Grassy's Denon AVP-A1HDCI have no negative feedback? Too bad both of our Denon AVP-A1HDCI died after 8 years. Actually I think his died before mine.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...

Mind you I get the impression that the AH bunch are quite level-headed compared to the audiophile fringe. I might be preaching to the choir here.
Most or many of us are. But reminding us by an expert always helps to reinforce what is. :)
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Money in the wallet
Oh so my Denon AVP-A1HDCI and Grassy's Denon AVP-A1HDCI have no negative feedback? Too bad both of our Denon AVP-A1HDCI died after 8 years. Actually I think his died before mine.
That’s why both them Pre-Pro’s died! Denon didn’t put any good negative feedback in the pre-amp of them units. They would still be working today if they had. But no! According to you everyone Including me gotta have big ears to even hear the bad Negative feedback. All I said was I read that somewhere and that I got a email from Harman/Kardon about low negative feedback.
Never said I could hear bad Negative feedback with my big ears! lol
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Money in the wallet

That’s why both them Pre-Pro’s died! Denon didn’t put any good negative feedback in the pre-amp of them units. They would still be working today if they had. But no! According to you everyone Including me gotta have big ears to even hear the bad Negative feedback. All I said was I read that somewhere and that I got a email from Harman/Kardon about low negative feedback.
Never said I could hear bad Negative feedback with my big ears! lol
Were you able to get positive negative feedbacks? :D
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
That ain't how it works exactly though. Marketing departments the world over have successfully convinced a large chunk of the market, not just that measurements don't matter but also that good measurements are a bad sign. That has allowed them to print money in the high end market without needing an actual engineering department. The result is that now, trying to sell an amp based on the fact that it has low distortion (achieved using lots of feedback) is practically suicide. No marketeer would take that job on.

Mind you I get the impression that the AH bunch are quite level-headed compared to the audiophile fringe. I might be preaching to the choir here.
BRUNO.. Many thanks, I greatly appreciate your participation in our discussions.
Since I have been doing product development/sourcing for certain major CE clients for >45 years I have gained certain insights. These include:
  • Typically each audio brand has their own, resident amplifier design guru which is often the brand's name
  • The resident amplifier design guru establishes the standards for his brand, but can/will vary significantly between competitive brands
  • Over the last 10 years, the sonic differences between acceptable audio and superb audio has widen significantly
  • Hifi audio product categories have undergone significant $ segmentation, entry level price points have decreased while the high end price points have increased
  • Certain newer audio product categories have enjoyed significant growth such as cell-phones, soundbars, game consoles, car audio, home theater
  • New amplifier technologies have had a major influence on certain product categories for form factor and pricing, especially Class D solutions such as Tri-Path, Cirrus, ICE, IR, D2, Hypex
Our CE industry continues to expand in multiple directions delivering entertainment to virtually every age group and generations.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
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G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
BRUNO.. Many thanks, I greatly appreciate your participation in our discussions.
Since I have been doing product development/sourcing for certain major CE clients for >45 years I have gained certain insights. These include:
  • Typically each audio brand has their own, resident amplifier design guru which is often the brand's name
  • The resident amplifier design guru establishes the standards for his brand, but can/will vary significantly between competitive brands
  • Over the last 10 years, the sonic differences between acceptable audio and superb audio has widen significantly
  • Hifi audio product categories have undergone significant $ segmentation, entry level price points have decreased while the high end price points have increased
  • Certain newer audio product categories have enjoyed significant growth such as cell-phones, game consoles, car audio, home theater
  • New amplifier technologies have had a major influence on certain product categories for form factor and pricing, especially Class D solutions such as Tri-Path, Cirrus, ICE, IR, D2, Hypex
Our CE industry continues to expand in multiple directions delivering entertainment to virtually every age group and generations.

Just my $0.02... ;)
M Code what’s your take on negative feedback bad or good? or low negative feedback?
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Posts numbers 3 and 10 he weighs in.
Thanks Pogre, Andrew and I been pulling each other’s leg with BS lol, I lost track. :) going read them now. Come to think of it, When I first Joined up on AH, it was Andrew who corrupted me. lol, Man I got all ate up! :p up by ADTG’s Marketing Manager sales pitch on how Shiny black speakers are better with bad Negative feedback. lolo. He a great guy and all, but he really No Jedi! :p;) .Andrew I can’t hangout with you No more!! Now I gotta go check myself into Audioholics rehab Facility.
 
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G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Be careful what you read. Now you know why I mentioned him. That's one of the examples I can think of, that got taken out of context by people don't really know the basics of control theory. If you put Mr. Nelson and Mr. Putzeys in the same room, Ii highly doubt they would disagree a whole lot on this topic.
@PENG, Thanks for the heads up! Really, I started all the jacking around to drum up some attention to Gene’s Thread. I jumped over all the good meaningful post that really matter and didn’t realize we Actually have an audio engineer that designed and builds audio amps. I just read Brunos first post up on his Thoughts and input on Negative feedback. I do believe for me outside of what I have Researched up on Dr. Tool and Dr. Harman and Bob Carver, this a first for me on a Forum that Actually has a EE that didn’t get what’s been posted up by using Google.
 
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Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
I can't even hear beyond 16kHz, but you can hear to 200kHz?

And you would buy an amp with a SNR of 90dBA even if you could buy an amp with a SNR of 132dBA?
Too many loud Atmos tracks have damaged your hearing :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks Pogre, Andrew and I been pulling each other’s leg with BS lol, I lost track. :) going read them now. Come to think of it, When I first Joined up on AH, it was Andrew who corrupted me. lol, Man I got all ate up! :p up by ADTG’s Marketing Manager sales pitch on how Shiny black speakers are better with bad Negative feedback. lolo. He a great guy and all, but he really No Jedi! :p;) .Andrew I can’t hangout with you No more!! Now I gotta go check myself into Audioholics rehab Facility.
Yo Mike, you’re a General now. You’ll be a Jedi in no time. ;)
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Yo Mike, you’re a General now. You’ll be a Jedi in no time. ;)
Ok the Doctor “Gene” ;):) said I can post up one last BS post, before I leave for AH rehab Facilities. Who ever told you I wanted to be a Jedi! uhu? I’m not a Jedi! I’’m a Sith! Always two they are! no more no less. You the Evil Emperor! The evil Emperor of the Darkside! True Jedi doesn’t sell Bad Negative feedback!! :p:D
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
3 years? Heck, my Denon AVP-A1HDCI lasted 8 years! :D
I have a Sony integrated amp that was made in 1989, my turntable is from 1982, two stereo receivers from the late- 1970s and a little guitar amp from 1937 (as close as I can determine), one from 1958 and another from 1959. If something only lasts for 8 years, I'm not a happy camper.
 
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