Preamp for Yamaha A870

[rgbbhat72]

Hi
I currently have the Yamaha A870 paired to a 7.0 set up as below
LCR B&W - 603s and HTM6 new series
Front Heights - Polk OWM3s
Rear Surround- Bose 301 Series V
Yamaha A 870
Sony UBP X800
No Sub

The A870 has a section of Pre Outs for Center, Surround Back and Front

My main consumption is Movies and wanted your advise on
a. Would a Pre amp be able to improve the speaker performance of the LCR
b. What would be a Budget Preamp that i can start with
c. Heart set on Rotel so any budget or older models that i can start with

Thank you

Rajesh

 

[lovinthehd]

The A870 is a pre-amp (and amp and tuner, AKA an avr), the pre-outs are for connection of an external amplifier. You have a wide choice of amplifiers you could add to the pre-outs, including Rotel models.

 

[Swerd]

The Yamaha A870 is an AVR, with modest power output of 100 watts/channel when driving 2 channels.

Most if not all preamp/processors that I've heard made no difference in the overall sound quality of a system. They sell at higher prices than AVRs because of the price structure established by AV manufacturers.

If you get a preamp, what amplifier would you use to drive your speakers? What range of power does B&W recommend for the 603 speakers?

If you do get an external power amp, you could easily use your Yamaha A870 as an AV preamp, without sacrificing sound quality.

 

[Swerd]

What range of power does B&W recommend for the 603 speakers?

B&W calls the 603s 8 ohm speakers, but admits their minimum impedance is 3 ohms. They claim a sensitivity of 88.5 dB, and they recommend 30 to 200 wpc to drive them.

The National Research Council (NRC) of Canada, a reputable 3rd party, measured these specs for the 603. With a sensitivity of 86.5 dB, and this graph for impedance, it looks like a 4 ohm speaker to me.

 

[Swerd]

a. Would a Pre amp be able to improve the speaker performance of the LCR
b. What would be a Budget Preamp that i can start with
c. Heart set on Rotel so any budget or older models that i can start with

To directly answer your questions
a. No pre-amp I am aware of would significantly change or improve the performance of your LCR speakers.
b. Don't consider any pre-amp.
c. By any chance, is a Rotel pre-amp also recommended by the dealer who sold you the B&W 603 speakers? If so, politely ignore his profit-driven advice.

The question you didn't ask is what do those B&W 603 speakers sound like? The frequency response graphs on the NRC web page speak for themselves. The 603s have a large and unexplained dip at about 2 kHz and again at 6-7 kHz. Because crossover frequencies are at 400 Hz and 4 kHz, I have to assume B&W intended the large dip at 2 kHz. It doesn't appear to be an unfortunate result of a crossover. In my opinion, these speakers will sound recessed and have poor dispersion at wider angles off-axis. No power amp, pre-amp, or AVR can change that.

 

[rgbbhat72]

The Yamaha A870 is an AVR, with modest power output of 100 watts/channel when driving 2 channels.

Most if not all preamp/processors that I've heard made no difference in the overall sound quality of a system. They sell at higher prices than AVRs because of the price structure established by AV manufacturers.

If you get a preamp, what amplifier would you use to drive your speakers? What range of power does B&W recommend for the 603 speakers?

If you do get an external power amp, you could easily use your Yamaha A870 as an AV preamp, without sacrificing sound quality.

Thank you so much as you have given me some direction to my self education.
So I would be better of with an external power amp and connect it to the Yammy.

 

[Swerd]

Thank you so much as you have given me some direction to my self education. So I would be better of with an external power amp and connect it to the Yammy.

Your Yamaha would perform as well as a dedicated pre-amp when connected to an external power amp, at significantly lower cost. Before proceeding, please read my last post.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hi
I currently have the Yamaha A870 paired to a 7.0 set up as below
LCR B&W - 603s and HTM6 new series
Front Heights - Polk OWM3s
Rear Surround- Bose 301 Series V
Yamaha A 870
Sony UBP X800
No Sub

The A870 has a section of Pre Outs for Center, Surround Back and Front

My main consumption is Movies and wanted your advise on
a. Would a Pre amp be able to improve the speaker performance of the LCR
b. What would be a Budget Preamp that i can start with
c. Heart set on Rotel so any budget or older models that i can start with

Thank you

Rajesh

What’s wrong with the sound ?

Lack of bass (no sub)?

Lack of clarity?

In most cases, it’s about the speakers and subs (or lack of), not the AVR.

I would get a nice sub. Set your speakers to small. XO to 80-120Hz. And see how that sounds. Either way, you gotta have a sub.

 

[rgbbhat72]

What’s wrong with the sound ?

Lack of bass (no sub)?

Lack of clarity?

In most cases, it’s about the speakers and subs (or lack of), not the AVR.

I would get a nice sub. Set your speakers to small. XO to 80-120Hz. And see how that sounds. Either way, you gotta have a sub.

Hi- Unfortunately Cant have a sub in this house. when i Do the YPAO , i sets all the Speakers as Large except the Front Heights , which is small and XO of 80 Hz.

 

[rgbbhat72]

Your Yamaha would perform as well as a dedicated pre-amp when connected to an external power amp, at significantly lower cost. Before proceeding, please read my last post.

Thank you for your suggestion and advise. Would you have any recommendations for an external amp that i can start with, nothing fancy.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for your suggestion and advise. Would you have any recommendations for an external amp that i can start with, nothing fancy.

.

You have a lot of choices. Just make sure that any amp you buy has a four ohm specification. I personally do not recommend powering any B & W speakers from a receiver. Those speakers are very hard on the amps in receivers. For the current crop of receivers, I actually think most are unfit to drive most speakers on the market now, certainly if you are going to play above very moderate volumes.

 

[rgbbhat72]

.

You have a lot of choices. Just make sure that any amp you buy has a four ohm specification. I personally do not recommend powering any B & W speakers from a receiver. Those speakers are very hard on the amps in receivers. For the current crop of receivers, I actually think most are unfit to drive most speakers on the market now, certainly if you are going to play above very moderate volumes.

Thank you. It would be helpful if you can atleast give me one brand and model no to check on .

 

[Verdinut]

In my opinion, you wouldn't need to get seven external amps, just three to drive your B & W front speakers.

For power amplifiers, I would suggest either the Monoprice Monolith 3 or three Outlaw 2200M monoblocs. Both are products with excellent specs and a good record of reliability and performance. Your Yamaha AVR can drive the surround speakers without any problem.

 

[PENG]

I would make some recommendations if you provide information on:

- distances
- spl required, that is how loud, like in a cinema?
- are you open to replacing your avr (just in case)?

 

[rgbbhat72]

I would make some recommendations if you provide information on:

- distances
- spl required, that is how loud, like in a cinema?
- are you open to replacing your avr (just in case)?

Hello Peng My responses as below
- distances - The room is around 150 Sqft - Long Room- LCR to MLP is around 135.5 Feet
- spl required, that is how loud, like in a cinema?- Not very Loud as Wife Acceptance to sound is Low and I live in an apartment so neighbours around.
- are you open to replacing your avr (just in case)? Yes Open to replacing since I am still figuring out what I can afford and what to do for the best sound. I am 80:20 - Movies to Music

 

[PENG]

Hello Peng My responses as below
- distances - The room is around 150 Sqft - Long Room- LCR to MLP is around 135.5 Feet
- spl required, that is how loud, like in a cinema?- Not very Loud as Wife Acceptance to sound is Low and I live in an apartment so neighbours around.
- are you open to replacing your avr (just in case)? Yes Open to replacing since I am still figuring out what I can afford and what to do for the best sound. I am 80:20 - Movies to Music

135.5ft? Must be a typo, is it 13.5 ft?

 

[rgbbhat72]

135.5ft? Must be a typo, is it 13.5 ft?

Oops - Yes 13.5 Feet My Bad. sorry

 

[PENG]

Oops - Yes 13.5 Feet My Bad. sorry

Okay, will punch the info in my calculator.

 

[PENG]

Based on the info provided, you have the DM 603 S2, the specs are:
Sensitivity: 90 dB, 283V, at 1 meter
Impedance: 8 ohms nominal, 4.3 ohm minimum
Power handling: 150 W into 8 ohm unclipped

As shown in the calculated results, the A870 seems adequate assuming in an apartment environment you won't be listening to louder than 75 dB average and 95 dB peak.

If you would like to have a healthy headroom, then adding a 200 WPC power amp will get you at least 3 dB (or 2X) more than your actual need.

The Monolith 200WX3 are probably the best in terms of $/Watt, but not good in terms of lbs/watt. So my recommendation would be either the MCA 325 if your budget allows, or 3X Outlaw M2200 as Verdinut suggested. The M2200's list price was $399 but often obtainable for $299, or buy two get one free when sale. That probably won't happen now, not until the virus thing is done I guess.

Since you are open to a new AVR, I would say just get an AVR-X3600H that has just been measured and the results are really top notched relative to Yamaha's equivalent (sort of only as there are no directly comparable models between the two). In fact, if used as preamp the Denon beats Marantz top model and also beat quite a few separates that cost much more. You shouldn't pay too much attention to those measurements for sound quality issues though because its mostly academic, only "golden ears" can tell them apart (but they may also fall apart) anyway regardless of the measurements, linked below. Still, all else being equal, good measurements could enhance the Placebo effects and/or expectation bias that are often real to many people.

AVR-X3600H ASR review,

you may also read more about why I (and others) recommended this AVR and its little brother the AVR-X3500H so many times on this forum.

The AVR-X3600H

This thing has impressive measured outputs under different conditions, such as:

Into 4 ohm, two channel driven: 152 W @ 0.0056% THD+N, or 184 W @ 1% THD+N
Into 4 ohm, 4 channel driven: 107 W (THD+N increased to about 0.018%), see post#272 in the ASR review thread.

If you grab this AVR, you can just sit back and enjoy without worry about an ext amp until your power requirement changes. Do invest on a $12 fan to enhance longevity as it will run warm.

The good thing is, the 603 S2 should be much easier to drive than the original 603 and slightly easier to drive than the newer 603 S3 based on the info on the B&W website as well as the available measurements for the 603 S3 by Stereophile.

 

[rgbbhat72]

Based on the info provided, you have the DM 603 S2, the specs are:
Sensitivity: 90 dB, 283V, at 1 meter
Impedance: 8 ohms nominal, 4.3 ohm minimum
Power handling: 150 W into 8 ohm unclipped

As shown in the calculated results, the A870 seems adequate assuming in an apartment environment you won't be listening to louder than 75 dB average and 95 dB peak.

If you would like to have a healthy headroom, then adding a 200 WPC power amp will get you at least 3 dB (or 2X) more than your actual need.

The Monolith 200WX3 are probably the best in terms of $/Watt, but not good in terms of lbs/watt. So my recommendation would be either the MCA 325 if your budget allows, or 3X Outlaw M2200 as Verdinut suggested. The M2200's list price was $399 but often obtainable for $299, or buy two get one free when sale. That probably won't happen now, not until the virus thing is done I guess.

Since you are open to a new AVR, I would say just get an AVR-X3600H that has just been measured and the results are really top notched relative to Yamaha's equivalent (sort of only as there are no directly comparable models between the two). In fact, if used as preamp the Denon beats Marantz top model and also beat quite a few separates that cost much more. You shouldn't pay too much attention to those measurements for sound quality issues though because its mostly academic, only "golden ears" can tell them apart (but they may also fall apart) anyway regardless of the measurements, linked below. Still, all else being equal, good measurements could enhance the Placebo effects and/or expectation bias that are often real to many people.

AVR-X3600H ASR review,

you may also read more about why I (and others) recommended this AVR and its little brother the AVR-X3500H so many times on this forum.

The AVR-X3600H

This thing has impressive measured outputs under different conditions, such as:

Into 4 ohm, two channel driven: 152 W @ 0.0056% THD+N, or 184 W @ 1% THD+N
Into 4 ohm, 4 channel driven: 107 W (THD+N increased to about 0.018%), see post#272 in the ASR review thread.

If you grab this AVR, you can just sit back and enjoy without worry about an ext amp until your power requirement changes. Do invest on a $12 fan to enhance longevity as it will run warm.

The good thing is, the 603 S2 should be much easier to drive than the original 603 and slightly easier to drive than the newer 603 S3 based on the info on the B&W website as well as the available measurements for the 603 S3 by Stereophile.

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WOW. Thank you for all the information that you have provided. A Real pleasure to have all this information that you have provided to a complete stranger like me. Thank you and God Bless.