Upgrade for Mains w/Denon 4500

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Fastfwd

Audioholic Intern
Hopefully I can keep this short. Currently, I'm running the same 5 Ascend CBM-170 (not SE version) standmounts that I've had for the last 18 or so years. I love what the Denon 4500 has done for them with room correction, etc. I'm curious now if I might not be able to eek out a little more from the Denon with a new set of mains. I saw the video from here about the 3600 having clean preamp output, but I'm not sure if that is true for the 4500? So, that is somewhat of a factor in the decision.

I'm looking at the Revel M16 vs the Revel F35 currently. I can get a great deal off retail on these so it seems worth trying them out at that price even though I can't actually listen to them first and that's one of my problems. I generally trust all of the positive reviews for the M16. It's a sort of known quantity with me to have a 1" dome tweeter and a 6 1/2" woofer in a standmount and the reivews seem so reflect a consensus of favorable opions. These aren't quite as efficient as my Ascends however. So, It does give me a little concern if my Denon 4500 can drive the 5.4.1 system with the M16s up front as my mains with all channels driven.

The flipside of the dilemma is the F35 which is more efficient and designed to run with 'low cost receivers' according Revel - using 5 1/4" drivers. One full range and 2 dedicated to lower frequencies. My apprehension is that without hearing them for myself first I'm not sure I'm going to like the sound if it is a little more hollow. I know the extension from the towers goes lower supposedly and there is more overall output (I'm pretty good with output already), but there is apparently debate on the sound charactersitics of 5 1/4" main drivers vs 6 1/2" and I haven't seen any consensus. It's mostly personal preference. Better accuracy and integration with some frequencies maybe, but loss of soundstage possibly as an example due to characteristics of the two drivers with off axis frequency reflection? I frankly didn't follow too well along with the debate on that, but I think I got the gist of it.

I do have a sub to go along with whatever I get - an Adire Audio Rava that i like for what it does, but I might like a little fuller sound from the mains themselves. My room isn't huge. It's like 11x13. So, I'm not sure if the bigger brother, the F36, with 3 6 1/2" woofers would work well in my room or if it would be overpowering.

Any advice appreciated. If I went M16 and I can't run an external amp cleanly I'm not sure where that leaves me. Will they run OK enough for home theater duty? Maybe not too great for surround/upmix music, but ok for 2 channel? The Denon doesn't seem to break a sweat with what I've thrown at it so far. I don't think it's gotten much warmer than it stays at idle and I've pounded on it with a few movies by now.

I've actually had one salesman tell me over the internet that he doesn't believe the speakers that I asked him about (Wharfedale Evo 4.2) would be able to provide any better 'resolution' for me. I may have used the term 'resolution' inappropriately, but generally better detail, etc. He thinks my Denon 4500 (with Amazon HD) and the Sony X800M2 (SACD/DVD-A, 4K) can't provide better 'resolution' than what the Ascends can give me I guess? Maybe anyone who has experience with the Denon 4500 can chime in with your results with various speakers and tell me if you found some performed better or if the Denon limited you. To be fair I referenced that I was hoping to attain more 'resolution' and I may not be using the audiophile vernacular accurately.

Thanks!
 
I

Isak Öhrlund

Junior Audioholic
I saw the video from here about the 3600 having clean preamp output, but I'm not sure if that is true for the 4500? So, that is somewhat of a factor in the decision.
It is the same for the 4500 I am told, but the internal amps only physically disconnect if you use an external amp for the mains. I recently upgraded to the 4500 myself and I use an XTZ Edge A2-300 two-channel amplifier for the mains. A very compact, powerful and cheap amplifier.
 
X

XTex

Audioholic Intern
I own both the M16s and F35s, with the F35s now currently running in my 40% music/60% movies-and-gaming setup. I sit about 8 feet from them and have an asymmetrical room with a very close side wall and the speakers pretty close to the front wall. I've powered both sets of speakers off of my Onkyo receiver with no room correction, flat EQ (neither needs it in my space) and manual distance and level setting.

The short answer is that you won't go wrong with either and compared to your Ascends I would expect bigger soundstage, better off-axis performance, and a little more stereo separation, with a bit more subjective 'life' to the sound.

With regard to them head-to-head, I was fully satisfied with my M16s but bought the F35s after coming across a deal I couldn't pass up. I swapped them in directly for my M16s and the difference was immediately audible to me; in my setup and room the M16s are very good but the F35s are even better, no question. No audible midbass hump like the M16s have (neither good nor bad IMO, just different) but improved resolution and dynamics overall. They are in no way anemic or lacking in body and I can listen to them for hours and hours.

Regarding the F36s I agree that they are likely unnecessary for your space. My retailer has both the F35s and F36s set up and they sound basically identical to my ear. The audio addict in me would love to try them 'just because' but I have no actual reason to do so.
 
F

Fastfwd

Audioholic Intern
Thanks to everyone for the input! I can get what sounds like a pretty amazing deal on the F35 in white, but I've been a little apprehensive since I can't compare them currently. I think I'll give them a shot and see. Thanks again!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks to everyone for the input! I can get what sounds like a pretty amazing deal on the F35 in white, but I've been a little apprehensive since I can't compare them currently. I think I'll give them a shot and see. Thanks again!
Please let us know your thoughts after you have given them some time!
 
F

Fastfwd

Audioholic Intern
It is the same for the 4500 I am told, but the internal amps only physically disconnect if you use an external amp for the mains. I recently upgraded to the 4500 myself and I use an XTZ Edge A2-300 two-channel amplifier for the mains. A very compact, powerful and cheap amplifier.
Thanks! I'm glad to hear that it can do the clean preamp output. I never saw info on this anywhere when shopping.

If you don't mind me asking how do you like that XTZ Edge amp vs the Denon amp on your mains? I actually love the Denon, but I'm mildly curious what an external amp might sound like.
 
F

Fastfwd

Audioholic Intern
Please let us know your thoughts after you have given them some time!
Well, had these a couple weeks now and I am pleased. Frankly, there's been some discovery on my end of what other speakers can sound like that aren't the Ascends. I should preface my comments with my space limiting my room for these F35 to only be about 18" from the wall. So, that could impact my experience with them.

I was in love with the gigantic soundstage and imaging of the Ascends. My new speaker search started several months ago and I'm still learning even though I've made my decision. I don't believe that I didn't choose wisely, but it's definitely different in some aspects in ways that I didn't expect.

This review of the KEF Q350 might illustrate what I'm saying in terms of the Q350 vs LS50.

KEF Q350 Review, Comparison & Sound Samples

He describes the cabinet construction variance being the source of the Q350 having a more 'lively' sound vs the much more robust construction of the LS50 and the character that creates with them.

Basically, that might describe some of what I am experiencing. It might also be a factor of the use of the 5 1/4" vs 6 1/2" drivers. I'm really not sure how much each factor contributes. Owners of the M15/F36 might have a different impression if the 6 1/2" drivers have increased secondary reflections? IDK. That has been what I originally focused on as what I felt like I was experiencing.

So, there might be a more limited soundstage than the Ascends, but that isn't necessarily a negative tradeoff for the increase in detail in the midrage to top end. I'm hesitant to say that I gained a huge amount of separation and layering, but without a more A/B comparison that would be difficult to say definitively.

Edit: I would have to say that I've noticed a pretty dramatic improvement with albums like Miles Davis Bitches Brew where the Ascends just couldn't quite keep up with the layer upon layer of sound. The Revels do shine with that. The little Ascends were no slouches for the price, but the Revels are superior in just about every aspect.

After a few weeks I am adjusted to the soundstage of the F35. It's not that the soundstage is bad, it's just not as gigantic as the Ascends that sounded way bigger than the room I am in. I'm frankly stunned those little budget Ascends can do what they do.

I hope it doesn't sound like my impression of the F35 is negative. One of my goals was to increase detail with the high resolution streaming options and I definitely got that. The highs are far more detailed, but very smooth. I had to use Audyssey's second (more aggressive) roll off profile for the Ascends to keep them from being too bright (maybe just really flat). I can run the Revels without Audyssey correction above 3khz and they sound fantastic! Much better detail and I can listen for hours without fatigue.

I have run them full range and I'm afraid that I just don't have enough room for them to properly breathe to really make the most of them full range. The low end is overpowering and not quite as clear as just crossing them over at 80hz and letting my sub handle the bass from there. When they are crossed over they sound amazing! I have experimented with the spikes (on pennies on my hardwood floors) and I think it did tighten up the bass, but it is still overpowering and I believe that is a product of the limited space from the wall.

I'm still enjoying them and appreciating what they can do more and more. My decision was made based on knowing that I was going to cross them over and use my sub for bass. So, I hoped that the multiple 5 1/4" drivers might even provide a little better performance in the midrange and midbass than the M16 with the two 6 1/2". I couldn't answer that without an A/B comparison, but I'm guessing some of the benefits of the 5 1/4" are just a little more subtle than my experience allows me to hear definitively.

Say, the transient response of the smaller drivers for example. Is there more snap with the 5 1/4" vs what the 6 1/2" might provide with the same power from my receiver? The difference might be more dramatic with more dynamic power possibly for example idk. My experience might not define the character of the speaker. It might just be my impressions based on my space and electronics and my relatively limited experience in listening to various speakers.

Overall, I'm very pleased. I might question if the M16 would have been as much as I needed for my space, but I like the floorstanders. The construction and finish is top notch. I got the C25 center channel to match and the three piano white speakers for LRC look really nice together. All of those 5 1/4" drivers (8 of them total) looking at me is quite a show.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks! I'm glad to hear that it can do the clean preamp output. I never saw info on this anywhere when shopping.

If you don't mind me asking how do you like that XTZ Edge amp vs the Denon amp on your mains? I actually love the Denon, but I'm mildly curious what an external amp might sound like.
Among modern, well-designed amps, you should not expect amps to provide an audible difference unless:
1) One of the amps is defective
2) The amp was of abnormally poor design (not something I would expect from Denon or XTZ!).
3) The amp uses tubes to deliberately color the sound (this is common with guitar amps)!
4) You speakers, music, and listening levels require more watts/current than the amp is capable/designed to deliver!
5) One amp is set to play louder than the other (we always like the sound a bit louder-within reason)
Think about it! A good amp from the late 60's is still a good amp today (if it has been reconditioned as needed). The technology to design amps has been mature for many decades! there are some new twists, but generally speaking you typical Class A/B amp has no excuse not to work at a level well beyond your ability to hear any defect.
If a company is adopting a preferred sound signature (which seems to be what some reviewers indicate), then, by definition, they are choosing to introduce some degree of distortion into the signal.
As I said earlier, Guitar players often deliberately choose an amp that "fleshes out" the sound of their guitar by adding harmonics, especially if in a smaller group. This is akin to my voice sounding better in the shower/bathroom. But you want to let the musicians determine how they want to sound, not your amp! If such an amp was used for music with many many voices, it becomes a jumbled mess! Good musicians know when to "flesh out" their sound and when to clean it up to make an overall best presentation. You would not want an amp to categorically do that in your home system!
Many times, with speakers (which is not yet a mature science - many decisions speaker designers make force them to sacrifice one aspect of performance for another), I have found a speaker that sounded "better than any other on a particular passage, only to find that it sounded worse on others. For example one of my favorite songs (that I use for auditions) is "Heart of the Sunrise" by Yes. It predominately features Chris Squire's bass. I listened to one speaker that put an extra emphasis on the mid to upper-bass region and this song sounded so fantastic on that speaker! However, later when I listened to "Time" by Pink Floyd, there is a place where both male and female voices are singing and I was horribly disappointed by how the male voices were far too dominant over the female voices - the balancing across frequencies was wrong in a way that was admittedly nice with bass-centric music, but otherwise was not right for more typical music!
So pick a speaker that has the sound you want, tweak it with the pre-pro (if needed), but don't look to your amplifier to do anything to the sound. The only real question with an amp for a reputable manufacturer should be "Is it capable of driving my speakers at the levels I want to listen?".
Generally the answer to that is a yes if you are mid-range or higher AVRs, but there are some speakers that will make a liar out of me because they demand power with impedance dips well below 4 ohms accompanied by difficult phases. Usually a good review (which should include measurements of impedance and phase) gives you a fair assessment of what type of amplification you need.
Honestly if I go into a showroom and you have a simple box on one side and an over-sized amp with big meters on the other side (and assuming the 5 items I listed above are in compliance), I will hear the amp with the meters sound better - I can't help it, but if you blind-fold me and don't tell me which is which, I will not be able to consistently identify the amp that was so clearly better when I knew what they were - such is human perception.
Here is a fun example of how our expectation colors our perception:
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Amplification is not a very good upgrade path if you're wanting to improve on your sound. New speakers, yes. Any reason you're not still looking at Ascend? The Sierra 2s are very, very nice. So nice I ordered the Sierra Ribbon towers. I haven't heard the Sierra 2EX yet, but I have a tough time seeing how you could improve on 2s. Folks sure do seem to love them too tho. I'd love an opportunity to check them out. I own the Sierra 2s and considered getting the EX upgrade kit, but decided to just go all in on the towers.

You already sound like a fan of Ascend. Going with their top speaker seems like a no brainer to me!

*Edit: I misread your post a touch... if you're happy with your speakers now don't let me muddy the waters! What you have now really are very nice speakers. Revel really know their stuff. I stick by my comment about amplification tho.
 
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