Atmos Underwhelming

[AcuDefTechGuy]

thanks to Gene and the Audioholics YouTube videos I finally realize I'm not crazy, and Atmos can be very underwhelming compared to other formats like Neural or Dolby Surround. I thought there was something wrong with my system when Atmos content would rarely put sound in my front height speakers, and when it did, it's pretty faint/quick. I would just assume change my Apple 4K TV box streaming format off of "best quality/Atmos" and upmix in my Denon 1600 receiver to Dolby Surround or Neural that makes use of the height speakers. But before I do, is there some other benefit to the Atmos/object based sound format other than a signal occasionally going to the height (or ceiling for those that have those) speakers? As in, are the ground speakers (front L/R, rear surrounds, center) getting a different kind of mix with this object based format vs. just using Dolby Surround, Neural, or other formats? Kinda feeling duped by the Atmos hype, although I know all I have is front height speakers above the front L/R (5.1.2) so perhaps without in-ceiling it's not worth the bother.

1. Which movies or contents were you watching? Some are much better than others.
2. NeuralX is good for contents that don’t have a lot of Atmos.
3. Manually TURN UP the Atmos speaker levels (like with Center Channel). Key is to be able to actually HEAR the Atmos Speakers.
4. Don’t listen to anyone who doesn’t ACTUALLY OWN a home Atmos system. Like @William Lemmerhirt says - sour grapes.

Here are some Atmos/DTSX movies to check out (not in any order):

1. Pacific Rim 2013 4K Atmos
2. Blade Runner 2049 2017 4K Atmos (among the best)
3. Cloverfield Paradox 2018 2K Atmos
4. The Equalizer 2014 4K Atmos
5. The Great Wall 2016 4K Atmos
6. Hunter Killer 2018 4K Atmos
7. The Matrix Trilogy 1999, 2003, 2003 4K Atmos
8. Oblivion 2013 4K Atmos
9. Pride and Prejudice and Zombies 2016 4K Atmos
10. Salt 2010 4K Atmos
11. Sully 2016 4K Atmos
12. Twilight 2008 4K Atmos
13. Underworld 2003 4K Atmos
14. Underworld Blood Wars 2016 4K Atmos
15. Atomic Blonde 2017 4K DTSX
16. Harry Potter franchise (8 movies) 2001-2011 4K DTSX
17. Black Hawk Down 2001 4K Atmos
18. 13 Hours 2016 4K Atmos
19. Gravity 2013 2K Atmos
20. Ready Player One 2018 4K Atmos
21. Robin Hood 2018 4K Atmos
22. Jurassic World 4K DTSX
23. Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom 4K DTSX
24. Terminator Genisys 4K Atmos
25. Alita Battle Angel 2019 4K Atmos
26. Pet Sematary (2019) 4K Atmos
27. Blade Runner 1982 4K Atmos (among the best)
28. Godzilla King of the Monsters 2019 4K Atmos (among the best)
29. Jupiter Ascending 4K Atmos
30. X-Men Dark Phoenix 2019 4K Atmos
31. Lucy 2014 4K Atmos

For Streaming, try “Another Life 2019” in 4K Atmos on Netflix. Great Atmos sounds. Scene where an alien is on the roof moving all around, you can hear it move all around the Atmos speakers. Very creepy. A lot of overhead scenes.

 

[2channel lover]

Is that from a BD or streamed?

I have the BD and I second his opinion...it's awesome.

Wife is not real high on war flicks in general, but she loved it as well.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The whole, you must have in ceiling speakers for Atmos, per Dolby's spec, in my opinion is one of the big downfall of the Dolby Atmos system. In real life there's just isn't a lot of over head sounds so sound-mixers understandably don't put lot activity there. It would just be too gimmicky if they were to do so.

First of all will you please stop going back to saying that Atmos has to be to spec, and has to follow these super tight guidelines? We’ve been here before, and it’s not true. Yes, IMO it does work better to have IC but in no way is that the ONLY way that works, and in NO way does it not work if you aren’t using exact angles. The truth is that there are a number ways, and angles that can be successful. So the downfall isn’t Dolby, or the codec, it’s your refusal to understand that ITS NOT THAT STRICT!!!!! It’s also your refusal to try an Atmos installation in your home. I’m not telling you what to do with your home or money, but it doesn’t have to be an invasive surgery. If you’d simply say it’s too much work FOR YOU, or you don’t think it’s worth it FOR YOU fine. But don’t act like it’s a failure cause your too lazy or scared.

As far as “real life” goes. I’m not your case is great there either. I do agree there aren’t too many sounds above us compared to around us but I think you’d be surprised. There are many film environments that do lend themselves to not just overhead sounds, which IS NOT the only point of Atmos, but the atmosphere as a whole. That’s an oversimplification to say it’s all about overhead sounds. How about XYZ coordinates and objects at bed level etc?
Also, how many times in real life do we deal with submarine interiors, or tunnels, or cars jumping over our heads or being chased by a shark, or spider man shooting webs all over the room, etc, etc... It’s supposed to be realistic to the environment of the film, not necessarily real life.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/

dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-next-generation-audio-for-cinema-white-paper.pdf

http://www.kef.com/uploads/files/en/series_pdf/Dolby-Atmos-for-the-Home-Theater.pdf

 

[JAB11]

You stated your front height speakers are up front but by the ceiling?
You are using that Denon 1600 and trying to reproduce Atmos?
Is this correct?

yes - I have 2 front heights approximately 8 ft up the wall on a 9 ft. ceiling, so 4.5 ft. from the L/R fronts, both sets pretty flush with the wall. The Denon AVR is Atmos capable, amp assign says front height supports Atmos, I'm streaming Atmos content, 5.1 Def Tec speakers and two B&W M1s for front heights. I first put the two M1s immediately next to my front L/R angled at the ceiling to simulate the "Dolby Atmos-enabled speaker" complete with Audysey setup and that seemed useless so thought I'd get more bang for the buck up on the front wall.To Lemmerhirt and others posts, I suppose two front height speaker placement is barely in Atmos spec (knowing a spec has flexibility). Although Dolby says front height is within the spec, it's a fleeting comment then goes on to show diagrams of every speaker configuration other than two front heights. I have no wall on one side of the room so the side height speaker placement can't be done, ceiling install too difficult.

And I may be content challenged and haven't heard enough. My original issue was it seems like the amount of Atmos content coming from the front heights is incredibly minimal, in the course of an hour Atmos show I might get a few fleeting sounds coming out of them but they're mostly silent. Which got me thinking maybe at-home Atmos isn't a panacea afterall. So, I might as well upmix with Neural or Dolby Surround, have them on all of the time, and get my immersion fix that way until I can reconfigure or find more content.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What's not Atmos-enough about the avr? https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx1600h

Was wondering about height vs tops for the best option, tho....

I guess nothing with that one but when I googled denon 1600 as he posted I looked at this one

Denon AVR-1600 - AV receiver - 5.1 channel Series Specs

Denon AVR-1600 - AV receiver - 5.1 channel overview and full product specs on CNET.

www.cnet.com

 

[JAB11]

I guess nothing with that one but when I googled denon 1600 as he posted I looked at this one

Denon AVR-1600 - AV receiver - 5.1 channel Series Specs

Denon AVR-1600 - AV receiver - 5.1 channel overview and full product specs on CNET.

www.cnet.com

mine is the AVR-X1600H, didn't realize there was an older 1600 version. I should have clarified.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

First of all will you please stop going back to saying that Atmos has to be to spec, and has to follow these super tight guidelines? We’ve been here before, and it’s not true.

It’s like talking to a brick wall, isn’t it?

Sour grapes and brick walls.

 

[lovinthehd]

mine is the AVR-X1600H, didn't realize there was an older 1600 version. I should have clarified.

I think you left plenty of clues to indicate you were not working with the old 1600....Atmos, Dolby Surround, Neural, 5.1.2.....and that it's actually hard in a search to get much about the old 1600....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

yes - I have 2 front heights approximately 8 ft up the wall on a 9 ft. ceiling, so 4.5 ft. from the L/R fronts, both sets pretty flush with the wall.

Wait. So for Atmos speakers, you just have 2 FRONT height speakers that are FAR away from where you sit? Nothing in the rear NEAR/in proximity to where you sit?

Your Atmos speakers don’t have to be exactly to specifications. But it makes a huge difference that they are close to you so that you can actually HEAR them, especially when all the other speakers are playing loudly.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It’s like talking to a brick wall, isn’t it?

Sour grapes and brick walls.

Sounds like the name of an album by a(fictional) band called Stoned Raisins!!!

 

[JAB11]

Wait. So for Atmos speakers, you just have 2 FRONT height speakers that are FAR away from where you sit? Nothing in the rear NEAR/in proximity to where you sit?

Your Atmos speakers don’t have to be exactly to specifications. But it makes a huge difference that they are close to you so that you can actually HEAR them, especially when all the other speakers are playing loudly.

That's correct, the MLP is about 10 ft. from the two front height speakers. Ran it through Audyssey, I have no trouble hearing them in Dolby Surround/NeuralX, it's just in Atmos it's either a case of there is no content coming from them or if there is, it's faint and fleeting. Again, could be a content issue I'm experiencing, or I could crank up the volume on the front height speakers for Atmos content but that's kind of a pain. I'll bet the answer is to have 4 in ceiling speakers fore/aft the MLP huh?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That's correct, the MLP is about 10 ft. from the two front height speakers. Ran it through Audyssey, I have no trouble hearing them in Dolby Surround/NeuralX, it's just in Atmos it's either a case of there is no content coming from them or if there is, it's faint and fleeting. Again, could be a content issue I'm experiencing, or I could crank up the volume on the front height speakers for Atmos content but that's kind of a pain. I'll bet the answer is to have 4 in ceiling speakers fore/aft the MLP huh?

Did you make sure to select the right sound mode and/or the right soundtrack!

 

[Danzilla31]

That's correct, the MLP is about 10 ft. from the two front height speakers. Ran it through Audyssey, I have no trouble hearing them in Dolby Surround/NeuralX, it's just in Atmos it's either a case of there is no content coming from them or if there is, it's faint and fleeting. Again, could be a content issue I'm experiencing, or I could crank up the volume on the front height speakers for Atmos content but that's kind of a pain. I'll bet the answer is to have 4 in ceiling speakers fore/aft the MLP huh?

that is far back for those especially if they are close to your front 3. Yes you really need to set them up more the way you described.

They don't have to be in ceiling the prime elevations are great for being installed right onto your ceiling just run the wires through the ceiling no need to cut out big holes just a small one to run the wire through

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

that is far back for those especially if they are close to your front 3. Yes you really need to set them up more the way you described.

They don't have to be in ceiling the prime elevations are great for being installed right onto your ceiling just run the wires through the ceiling no need to cut out big holes just a small one to run the wire through

Or, if one can stand it, use cable runners. To me, that’s as easy as it gets, but everyone is different. Hell, I’ve seen rooms with huge BS speakers in the ceiling. Looks crazy, but can be cool imo. I think most people would think it unappealing to say the least. Lol

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's correct, the MLP is about 10 ft. from the two front height speakers. Ran it through Audyssey, I have no trouble hearing them in Dolby Surround/NeuralX, it's just in Atmos it's either a case of there is no content coming from them or if there is, it's faint and fleeting. Again, could be a content issue I'm experiencing, or I could crank up the volume on the front height speakers for Atmos content but that's kind of a pain. I'll bet the answer is to have 4 in ceiling speakers fore/aft the MLP huh?

Sure. Or move the front heights to rear heights to be a lot closer to the MLP. Or add 2 rear heights if you don’t want to move the speakers.

 

[JAB11]

OP Comment: Audyssey had my front heights around 2 db. If I crank the front heights to 8 db, I can hear the Atmos better from the MLP 10 ft. away. So I'd have to crank those up for Atmos content, back down to 2 db for non-atoms content I suppose when I'm doing Dolby Surround or Neural X. I can only add 2 speakers with the Denon X1600H and assign the amp accordingly (front height, top middle, etc.). If I were to ever move the 2 front height speakers, I'd put them ceiling slightly forward of MLP for best sound correct (per the dolby setup guide)? And that would still be a good spot for non Atmos height effects in Dolby Surround or Neural? The MLP is up against the back wall so no room behind, I have the surrounds back wall to the L/R of MLP.

The other weird thing is if the content is Atmos, the Denon receiver doesn't even give you the choice of choosing Dolby Surround or Neural X if you wanted to switch it or compare the mixes, must be because the Apple TV 4K box has forced the best quality so you'd have to turn that feature off in the ATV - nothing is easy! But it is damn cool when it works.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

OP Comment: Audyssey had my front heights around 2 db. If I crank the front heights to 8 db, I can hear the Atmos better from the MLP 10 ft. away. So I'd have to crank those up for Atmos content, back down to 2 db for non-atoms content I suppose when I'm doing Dolby Surround or Neural X. I can only add 2 speakers with the Denon X1600H and assign the amp accordingly (front height, top middle, etc.). If I were to ever move the 2 front height speakers, I'd put them ceiling slightly forward of MLP for best sound correct (per the dolby setup guide)? And that would still be a good spot for non Atmos height effects in Dolby Surround or Neural? The MLP is up against the back wall so no room behind, I have the surrounds back wall to the L/R of MLP.

The other weird thing is if the content is Atmos, the Denon receiver doesn't even give you the choice of choosing Dolby Surround or Neural X if you wanted to switch it or compare the mixes, must be because the Apple TV 4K box has forced the best quality so you'd have to turn that feature off in the ATV - nothing is easy! But it is damn cool when it works.

Audyssey had my front heights around 2 db. If I crank the front heights to 8 db, I can hear the Atmos better from the MLP 10 ft. away. So I'd have to crank those up for Atmos content, back down to 2 db for non-atoms content I suppose when I'm doing Dolby Surround or Neural X. I can only add 2 speakers with the Denon X1600H and assign the amp accordingly (front height, top middle, etc.). If I were to ever move the 2 front height speakers, I'd put them ceiling slightly forward of MLP for best sound correct (per the dolby setup guide)? And that would still be a good spot for non Atmos height effects in Dolby Surround or Neural? The MLP is up against the back wall so no room behind, I have the surrounds back wall to the L/R of MLP.

The other weird thing is if the content is Atmos, the Denon receiver doesn't even give you the choice of choosing Dolby Surround or Neural X if you wanted to switch it or compare the mixes, must be because the Apple TV 4K box has forced the best quality so you'd have to turn that feature off in the ATV - nothing is easy! But it is damn cool when it works.

Yes, that location would be good.

Part two is because you can’t upmix native immersion content.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If I were to ever move the 2 front height speakers, I'd put them ceiling slightly forward of MLP for best sound correct (per the dolby setup guide)?

Based on my experience, I would put Atmos speakers as close to the MLP as possible. So if it's ceiling speakers, I would put the ceiling speakers right above the MLP.

If the MLP is right at the back wall, you can also do height speakers mounted on the wall right above the MLP with the speakers pointed down at the MLP.

 

[2channel lover]

OP Comment: Audyssey had my front heights around 2 db. If I crank the front heights to 8 db, I can hear the Atmos better from the MLP 10 ft. away. So I'd have to crank those up for Atmos content, back down to 2 db for non-atoms content I suppose when I'm doing Dolby Surround or Neural X. I can only add 2 speakers with the Denon X1600H and assign the amp accordingly (front height, top middle, etc.). If I were to ever move the 2 front height speakers, I'd put them ceiling slightly forward of MLP for best sound correct (per the dolby setup guide)? And that would still be a good spot for non Atmos height effects in Dolby Surround or Neural? The MLP is up against the back wall so no room behind, I have the surrounds back wall to the L/R of MLP.

The other weird thing is if the content is Atmos, the Denon receiver doesn't even give you the choice of choosing Dolby Surround or Neural X if you wanted to switch it or compare the mixes, must be because the Apple TV 4K box has forced the best quality so you'd have to turn that feature off in the ATV - nothing is easy! But it is damn cool when it works.

I have a 5.2.4 inceiling atmos system....9' ceiling.

I used 8" Polks....the brand doesn't matter a ton, but 8" offers wider dispersion...imo better for a 9' ceiling vs 6" speakers.

Positioning...I used the Dolby config as a baseline...the end result was the front heights are about 2' in front of the MLP and rear heights are about 2' behind the MLP....I bumped them up 4dB and left them...I hear them fine.

 

[Auditor55]

yes - I have 2 front heights approximately 8 ft up the wall on a 9 ft. ceiling, so 4.5 ft. from the L/R fronts, both sets pretty flush with the wall. The Denon AVR is Atmos capable, amp assign says front height supports Atmos, I'm streaming Atmos content, 5.1 Def Tec speakers and two B&W M1s for front heights. I first put the two M1s immediately next to my front L/R angled at the ceiling to simulate the "Dolby Atmos-enabled speaker" complete with Audysey setup and that seemed useless so thought I'd get more bang for the buck up on the front wall.To Lemmerhirt and others posts, I suppose two front height speaker placement is barely in Atmos spec (knowing a spec has flexibility). Although Dolby says front height is within the spec, it's a fleeting comment then goes on to show diagrams of every speaker configuration other than two front heights. I have no wall on one side of the room so the side height speaker placement can't be done, ceiling install too difficult.

And I may be content challenged and haven't heard enough. My original issue was it seems like the amount of Atmos content coming from the front heights is incredibly minimal, in the course of an hour Atmos show I might get a few fleeting sounds coming out of them but they're mostly silent. Which got me thinking maybe at-home Atmos isn't a panacea afterall. So, I might as well upmix with Neural or Dolby Surround, have them on all of the time, and get my immersion fix that way until I can reconfigure or find more content.

In my opinion, part of the problem with homes Atmos is that its doesn't seem like sound mixers know how to properly use object based audio palette. Cinema Dolby Atmos is consistent, not many variations in speaker configurations if there any at all. With home Atmos, you have all kinds Atmos configurations and hybrid configurations, what is a sound mixer supposed to do. In spite of what some of these gentlemen are saying, home Dolby Atmos is not and never have been speaker agnostic. Unfortunately for some and fortunately for others, Atmos is the defacto industry standard for immersive audio in the home.

The up-mixers are a good fall back because they obviously work with any speaker configuration one might have. I have heard reports of people preferring the upmix over the Atmos and DTS-X sound tracks.

Overcoming Problems with Bad Immersive Audio Mixes