Judge my setup

[sizzam]

Hello i'm new here and would like some judgements and suggestions on my setup currently.

Components so far:
Turntable - audio technica AT-LP60 with an external (Dynasty ProAudio DA-UA2D) preamp and a LP GEAR CFN3600LE stylus.

Receiver - pioneer vsx1130

Mains - "DOGG" digital audio - model SL-1400

Center - Polk Audio CS10

Surround - Dayton Audio T652

Subwoofer's - Polk Audio PSW10
Logitech Z2300
JBL SUB135P Powered by a Acoustic Audio WS1005 (respectively)

<------(I have an old sub connected to the JBL as a passive radiator)

The receiver is running the mains in BI-AMP mode so the 10" woofers are powered separate from the sealed mids and highs cabinet.
I have it all tuned to a 80hz overall crossover to my room and placement is as good as I can manage with the space available.
The receiver is currently connected via hdmi with pcm decoding with 24bit 192000 5.1 channel settings on windows.

Any suggestions or Improvements to the placement or the Components themselves are welcome but keep in mind I am on a bit of a budget for a while.

 

[sizzam]

my room is about 12' by 14' and i have the speakers placed roughly 3-4" away from the walls and spaced as even as I can also its all tuned to be as flat as I can manage.
can post before and after pics of tuning graphs if needed.

 

[shadyJ]

Your main speakers, the DOGG Digital Audio ones, are a 'white van special' brand. No offense, but they are junk designed to defraud people: see the list in this article. The speaker positioning is also not great. You generally don't want speakers tucked away in corners. The reason is that the sound reflects off of sidewalls very strongly and causes a lot of diffraction and other adverse acoustic effects.

The subwoofer situation is problematic. You are mixing different subs with very different performance characteristics, and that can cause more problems than any good. The JBL powering another sub as a passive radiator is disastrous. It may be making sound, but I guarantee you it is anything but accurate bass reproduction.

If I were you, I would first replace the front left/right tower speakers with something more legitimate, maybe some inexpensive but decent bookshelf speakers. I would remove the Logitech sub and non-functioning passive radiator sub. I would position the front left and right speakers in a more optimal way; I would bring them forward away from the walls while trying to keep them from being close to nearby surfaces. Here is a good example of speaker placement for a desktop PC in a small room. Try to place the speaker's height where the tweeter is level with your ear height in your normal seating position. Try to aim the speaker to face your listening position.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound too critical, and I appreciate your enthusiasm in getting a better sound system. It's not easy on a tight budget but it is possible. I think you can get a significantly better sound with just a few changes.

The PC case is pretty kick ass, by the way, and the whole setup looks like a pretty fun battle-station overall.

 

[sizzam]

Thanks for the replay I plan to upgrade the Logitech sub with a 15" sub next.
the idea is that I'll have a 8" for drums, the 10" for lower end (80-50hz) and the 15" for the super low frequencies (50-20hz), maybe that is wrong I'm not sure but I feel like that would work?

Also the mains are surprisingly nice cabinets (high density fiberboard) so i was gonna look at finding a nice set of good drivers to swap into it (that match the dimensions of the cabinet) and then remove the crossover completely as it does not look well made and run the 10" woofers on a dedicated amp. The drivers that are included are not that bad sounding.
They are pretty flat on the frequency testing I did for them although they are not efficient whatsoever.

(I got them cheap as chips from someone else who was the victim of the scam they just wanted them gone so no worries there)

And lastly going by ear and graphing both I found the characteristics for the speakers not directly facing me are giving me much better sound imaging I feel (the wideness of the soundstage and the effects I hear around me), you may be right about moving them a bit more from the wall and out of corners, but its gonna be tough to do with all the stuff I have crammed in this room.

Also I like the criticism and no offense taken if I'm not criticized how do i know when I'm doing things right.

P.S. Thanks for the complement it took me 5 years to build this pc and setup altogether.

an older pic the cables are better managed now and there isn't any dust left.

 

[Pogre]

Your main speakers, the DOGG Digital Audio ones, are a 'white van special' brand. No offense, but they are junk designed to defraud people: see the list in this article. The speaker positioning is also not great. You generally don't want speakers tucked away in corners. The reason is that the sound reflects off of sidewalls very strongly and causes a lot of diffraction and other adverse acoustic effects.

The subwoofer situation is problematic. You are mixing different subs with very different performance characteristics, and that can cause more problems than any good. The JBL powering another sub as a passive radiator is disastrous. It may be making sound, but I guarantee you it is anything but accurate bass reproduction.

If I were you, I would first replace the front left/right tower speakers with something more legitimate, maybe some inexpensive but decent bookshelf speakers. I would remove the Logitech sub and non-functioning passive radiator sub. I would position the front left and right speakers in a more optimal way; I would bring them forward away from the walls while trying to keep them from being close to nearby surfaces. Here is a good example of speaker placement for a desktop PC in a small room. Try to place the speaker's height where the tweeter is level with your ear height in your normal seating position. Try to aim the speaker to face your listening position.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound too critical, and I appreciate your enthusiasm in getting a better sound system. It's not easy on a tight budget but it is possible. I think you can get a significantly better sound with just a few changes.

The PC case is pretty kick ass, by the way, and the whole setup looks like a pretty fun battle-station overall.

Boy, did you save me some typing!

 

[NINaudio]

Thanks for the replay I plan to upgrade the Logitech sub with a 15" sub next.
the idea is that I'll have a 8" for drums, the 10" for lower end (80-50hz) and the 15" for the super low frequencies (50-20hz), maybe that is wrong I'm not sure but I feel like that would work?

First of all, I agree with everything that Shady said.

Most quality subs will play from 120Hz or higher on down. There is no need to split that frequency range up between 3 drivers.

Personally I'd switch the dayton's from being your surrounds to your mains.

 

[sizzam]

First of all, I agree with everything that Shady said.

Most quality subs will play from 120Hz or higher on down. There is no need to split that frequency range up between 3 drivers.

Personally I'd switch the dayton's from being your surrounds to your mains.

Well the thing is all of my subs are not good quality, they are good budget options so my line of thinking is 3 good budget drivers are gonna get the job done for less cost maybe? I might be wrong but I seem to remember that a good sub is in the 400-500$+ range and that is half the budget for the whole system for me.

Also the mains I have are bi-amped with the receivers built in bi-amp feature and the sound quality is surprising with EQ and phase management.
The only complaint I have are that they are not efficient drivers im not sure what efficiency rating is but im sure its about 80-88db per 1 w 1 meter.

Thanks for the suggestion I might try swapping them around sometime just to see if it makes a big difference.

 

[sizzam]

Boy, did you save me some typing!

I take it youve had a run in with these speakers before? Either way I hope to either get some good matching drivers that are much better quality and keep the cabinet, or just replace them entirely down the line.

 

[Pogre]

Those white van speakers need to go! The people who run and operate those operations are pure scum. Those speakers are absolute garbage. I agree with NIN. Make the Dayton's your main speakers. Toss the white van speakers in the trash where they belong. Or, actually a recycling center would be preferred.

 

[Pogre]

I take it youve had a run in with these speakers before? Either way I hope to either get some good matching drivers that are much better quality and keep the cabinet, or just replace them entirely down the line.

I got approached in a parking lot once before I heard of the scam. Fortunately, I'm shy about buying things from people in a parking lot out of the back of a van. I know enough about the scam now to know that the product they sell is absolute garbage. I've seen speakers like those with chunks of cement in them just to make them feel heavier.

 

[sizzam]

I got approached in a parking lot once before I heard of the scam. Fortunately, I'm shy about buying things from people in a parking lot out of the back of a van. I know enough about the scam now to know that the product they sell is absolute garbage. I've seen speakers like those with chunks of cement in them just to make them feel heavier.

Wow that bad? Well ive taken mine apart and I can say they are cement free but the port for the 10" subs needed some modification to work chuff free.
The crossover for my particular pair work but are cheap looking so like I had replied above I'm just gonna remove it and get a proper one in there and run the 10" woofers separate with a dedicated amp.

However I'm gonna take mine apart and give it a closer examination and if its looking like its more effort than its worth ill just toss 'em and get some good 3 way floor-standers instead.

 

[Pogre]

Wow that bad? Well ive taken mine apart and I can say they are cement free but the port for the 10" subs needed some modification to work chuff free.
The crossover for my particular pair work but are cheap looking so like I had replied above I'm just gonna remove it and get a proper one in there and run the 10" woofers separate with a dedicated amp.

However I'm gonna take mine apart and give it a closer examination and if its looking like its more effort than its worth ill just toss 'em and get some good 3 way floor-standers instead.

Yes, they really are that bad. There is no crossover or any other modification that will make those speakers even listenable. I think you should click on Shady's link and read up a little bit on the white van speaker scam. It's a huge, global thing now and they've been ripping people off for years. It's actually astounding that they still even operate.

 

[sizzam]

Yes, they really are that bad. There is no crossover or any other modification that will make those speakers even listenable. I think you should click on Shady's link and read up a little bit on the white van speaker scam. It's a huge, global thing now and they've been ripping people off for years. It's actually astounding that they still even operate.

Will do thanks again.

 

[ryanosaur]

Do.
Not.

You cannot just drop new drivers into a box and think it will work.

Stop now, and plan and save for new speakers.

Dayton Audio and Monoprice have some decent budget options. Sony Core is another.

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks for the replay I plan to upgrade the Logitech sub with a 15" sub next.
the idea is that I'll have a 8" for drums, the 10" for lower end (80-50hz) and the 15" for the super low frequencies (50-20hz), maybe that is wrong I'm not sure but I feel like that would work?

Also the mains are surprisingly nice cabinets (high density fiberboard) so i was gonna look at finding a nice set of good drivers to swap into it (that match the dimensions of the cabinet) and then remove the crossover completely as it does not look well made and run the 10" woofers on a dedicated amp. The drivers that are included are not that bad sounding.
They are pretty flat on the frequency testing I did for them although they are not efficient whatsoever.

(I got them cheap as chips from someone else who was the victim of the scam they just wanted them gone so no worries there)

And lastly going by ear and graphing both I found the characteristics for the speakers not directly facing me are giving me much better sound imaging I feel (the wideness of the soundstage and the effects I hear around me), you may be right about moving them a bit more from the wall and out of corners, but its gonna be tough to do with all the stuff I have crammed in this room.

Also I like the criticism and no offense taken if I'm not criticized how do i know when I'm doing things right.

P.S. Thanks for the complement it took me 5 years to build this pc and setup altogether.
an older pic the cables are better managed now and there isn't any dust left.

There is no need to divide the bass frequencies among subwoofers like that. A decent subwoofer driver will perform well throughout the low-frequency spectrum. And it will do everything better than the subs that you have now could do anything, although the JBL sub maybe OK-ish for a budget sub.

Don't try to re-do your white van special speakers in the hopes of making them into actual good speakers. I would only modify them for something fun to do, not an attempt to create legitimately high-fidelity speakers. It is a hopeless cause. Measuring drivers is different than measuring speakers. It's not too surprising that the drivers might measure flattish if you do near-field measurements, but that is not how the speaker actually behaves. It is a waste of time trying to salvage those speakers.

You can get good affordable bookshelf speakers from JBL, KEF, Canton, Ascend, Hsu, Elac, etc., that will get the job done without requiring you to spend a lot of money or waste a lot of time on a project speaker.

 

[sizzam]

There is no need to divide the bass frequencies among subwoofers like that. A decent subwoofer driver will perform well throughout the low-frequency spectrum. And it will do everything better than the subs that you have now could do anything, although the JBL sub maybe OK-ish for a budget sub.

Don't try to re-do your white van special speakers in the hopes of making them into actual good speakers. I would only modify them for something fun to do, not an attempt to create legitimately high-fidelity speakers. It is a hopeless cause. Measuring drivers is different than measuring speakers. It's not too surprising that the drivers might measure flattish if you do near-field measurements, but that is not how the speaker actually behaves. It is a waste of time trying to salvage those speakers.

You can get good affordable bookshelf speakers from JBL, KEF, Canton, Ascend, Hsu, Elac, etc., that will get the job done without requiring you to spend a lot of money or waste a lot of time on a project speaker.

Ok thanks for the clarification on the white van specials and about my subs, I'll look into some decent towers at a local pawn or online.
The speakers I would want to replace these with I would prefer 3 way or 4 way bi-ampable or powered speakers of good quality. On that topic do you know any good towers that would match the aesthetics of my current towers?
My budget for towers would be around 500$ since that is what I paid for these towers with my current receiver.

Lastly how about replacing the JBL and the Logitec with 2 polk PSW-10's for matching subs?
Alternatively do you know of a brand of subs that makes a great sub for under 400$ a pop,
If I'm replacing all the subs I would like one great sub to do the job at least.

Thanks again btw.

 

[sizzam]

Do.
Not.

You cannot just drop new drivers into a box and think it will work.

Stop now, and plan and save for new speakers.

Dayton Audio and Monoprice have some decent budget options. Sony Core is another.

Is there any companies that come to mind for a set of matching speakers that would fit the aesthetics of my current setup with 3 way or 4 way mains?

 

[shadyJ]

Ok thanks for the clarification on the white van specials and about my subs, I'll look into some decent towers at a local pawn or online.
The speakers I would want to replace these with I would prefer 3 way or 4 way bi-ampable or powered speakers of good quality. On that topic do you know any good towers that would match the aesthetics of my current towers?
My budget for towers would be around 500$ since that is what I paid for these towers with my current receiver.

Lastly how about replacing the JBL and the Logitec with 2 polk PSW-10's for matching subs?
Alternatively do you know of a brand of subs that makes a great sub for under 400$ a pop,
If I'm replacing all the subs I would like one great sub to do the job at least.

Thanks again btw.

You are seated way too close to the speakers for 3-way or 4-way floor-standing speakers to make any sense in your situation. 3-way towers normally have a minimum distance before the sound from all the drivers integrate, and I wouldn't use any closer that say 2 meters or so. The only ones that might work for you would be towers from KEF where the sound should integrate at a closer distance. You should be looking for speakers where the sound integrates at a closer distance. I would be looking at 2-way bookshelf speakers. You don't have the budget for a decent 3-way tower speaker anyway. A 4-way tower is out of the question.

I would not bi-amp any speakers in your situation. Bi-amping has few upsides to offset the potential for disaster. There is no advantage for you in bi-amping anyway. It won't improve the sound, and you won't benefit from any headroom increase.

As for subs, I would just save the money for a good one. The Polk subs are not great subs. Definitely don't go throwing away more money on Polk subs. If you are looking for a good budget sub, look at the Dayton SUB1200. You might just buy a couple of those to replace all of your current subs. Don't try to mix what you have with legitimately good subs. Bad subs bring down the whole system. Beyond the Dayton subs, I would just save up for a Monolith THX 10" Select or a Hsu VTF-2 mk5.

 

[sizzam]

You are seated way too close to the speakers for 3-way or 4-way floor-standing speakers to make any sense in your situation. 3-way towers normally have a minimum distance before the sound from all the drivers integrate, and I wouldn't use any closer that say 2 meters or so. The only ones that might work for you would be towers from KEF where the sound should integrate at a closer distance. You should be looking for speakers where the sound integrates at a closer distance. I would be looking at 2-way bookshelf speakers. You don't have the budget for a decent 3-way tower speaker anyway. A 4-way tower is out of the question.

I would not bi-amp any speakers in your situation. Bi-amping has few upsides to offset the potential for disaster. There is no advantage for you in bi-amping anyway. It won't improve the sound, and you won't benefit from any headroom increase.

As for subs, I would just save the money for a good one. The Polk subs are not great subs. Definitely don't go throwing away more money on Polk subs. If you are looking for a good budget sub, look at the Dayton SUB1200. You might just buy a couple of those to replace all of your current subs. Don't try to mix what you have with legitimately good subs. Bad subs bring down the whole system. Beyond the Dayton subs, I would just save up for a Monolith THX 10" Select or a Hsu VTF-2 mk5.

I see in that case Im doing a little looking around and I found some decent floor-standers for around 500-1000$, and ill look around some and see if I cant find some of the suggested subs used at a good price.

cheers.

P.S. the current ones I'm looking at are the
- SVS Prime Pinnacle
- Polk Audio LSiM 707 MVC
- Boston Acoustics M340
- JBL Loft 50
- Definitive Technology BP-9040

Would all that still be the case if I picked one of these and waited on a good sub?
the BP-9040 seems to have a powered 8" sub per tower for instance.

 

[shadyJ]

I see in that case Im doing a little looking around and I found some decent floor-standers for around 500-1000$, and ill look around some and see if I cant find some of the suggested subs used at a good price.

cheers.

P.S. the current ones I'm looking at are the
- SVS Prime Pinnacle
- Polk Audio LSiM 707 MVC
- Boston Acoustics M340
- JBL Loft 50
- Definitive Technology BP-9040

Would all that still be the case if I picked one of these and waited on a good sub?
the BP-9040 seems to have a powered 8" sub per tower for instance.

The Prime Pinnacle is a pretty good speaker. The Polk LSiM speakers are a very difficult load for an amplifier, so you should have a good amp before considering those. Your Pioneer AVR won't cut it. I did hear those Boston Acoustics speakers a few years ago and I liked them. The JBL Loft speakers probably aren't terrible, but I don't know much about them. The Definitive Technology Speakers are expected to be used in a larger room than what you have due to the bipole design. I don't that would work well in your situation.

One thing you should consider is the tweeter height versus your listening position. If you do go with a tower speaker, make sure the height of the tweeter is roughly level with your ear height when seated in your listening position. Measure your ear height at the position that you normally listen to your system at, and see how high these towers are and where the tweeter is mounted on the tower.

But again, I don't know why you are so hung up on these tower speakers. Their advantages over bookshelf speakers are headroom and bass extension. You won't be taking advantage of the bass extension since you are using subwoofers, and you certainly won't be taking advantage of their dynamic range since they can get way louder than you would be able to tolerate at such a close distance. Bigger isn't necessarily better with regards to loudspeakers.