Amp for B&W CM10 S2

[meziatto]

Hi,

I usually follow this forum as a reader and this is my first post. Sorry it is a little bit long. I read old posts, but could not find similar question.

After having a baby, I cannot listen music and view movies at living room anymore, and made some arrangement using my old equipments.

I moved my B&W CM10 S2 speakers to study room and connected them to my old Yamaha RX-V496RDS temporarily. Instead I connected my decades old Bose 301 to Pioneer VSX-2020 in living room.

Living room: Pioneer VSX-2020, 2 x Bose 301 and Definitive Technology Supercube 2 subwoofer.
Study Room: Yamaha RX-V496RDS (broken & produces distortion), Speakers are B&W CM10 S2, Echo Dot, PS4, Mac Mini Server, Synology NAS and MacBook Pro for work.

I need advise to buy an amp for my study room.

• Room size: 3.2 * 3.9 m (10.5 * 11.8 feet)
• Speakers are B&W CM10 S2. (B&W suggested 30-300W at 8Ω.)
• 90% stereo (currently spotify, will Tidal, maybe Roon), 5% games (PS4 and computer), 5% movies.
• I listen usually Chillout during study. However when actually listening music, I prefer Jazz, vocal, and old time Hard Rock (Dream Theater, Nirvana, Guns'N Roses, Deep Purple and similar).
• I don't listen loud. (Didn't measure, but volume knob does not exceed 30)
• Currently, I listen from Spotify using Echo Dot.

I can buy an integrated amp with streaming support (all in one) to upgrade both source and amplifier, but it will not be future proof. To change network capabilities, I have to change amp too.
Or consenting not so good source for a while, I can buy a Class A/B amplifier with my budged and use with with Echo Dot (for a while).

For several valid seeming reasons such as taxes, market etc. local distributors in Turkey sell hi-fi items overpriced (with some exceptions such as PowerNode 2i). I can buy from Amazon, but please notice I have to pay 50% more after shipment and import taxes. Local distributors provide 2 yrs warranty, but I cannot use warranty from Amazon because of shipment costs and import-export regulations' costs.

I have and had several class D stereo integrated amps and ht receivers from Technics, Yamaha, Pioneer and similar mainstream brands, and all sounded same to my ears. But I don't have any experience with Class A/B amps or more Hi-Fi oriented brands.

I don't have chance to live test.

QUESTION 1
For a person who cannot distinguish between Class D amps, does Class A/B amps provides a better sound than Class D amps provide?

QUESTION 2
Below are some amps, which I think suitable for my situation. (Our current is 220V, so I had to eliminate Outlaw Audio RR2160) What are your thoughts or do you have any advise (considering +50% price when purchased from Amazon). As you see I'm confused a little.

Thanks for anyone who still reads and spend time to answer.

Denon HEOS Amp HS2
950 USD (local distributor), 800 USD (incl. shipment + import tax)

HEOS® AMP HS2 Integrated Amplifier with 2x 100W | Denon™

Denon HEOS® AMP HS2 integrated amplifier with 2x 100W provides high quality wireless Hi-Fi through Bluetooth and WiFi capabilities and is ready for multiroom setup.

www.denon.com

Class D Amp, 70 wpc (8Ω)

Pros:
HEOS (Lots of streaming services)
Bluetooth

Cons:
Cannot connect computer with USB
HEOS seems not compatible with Roon without airplay 2


Bluesound PowerNode 2i
950 USD (local distributor)

POWERNODE - Wireless Multi-Room Music Streaming Amplifier

The Bluesound POWERNODE is the hifi amp reinvented for the streaming age, combining audiophile-grade componentry and multi-room music capabilities to create an intuitive "just add speakers" hi-res sound system for modern music lovers.

www.bluesound.com

HybridDigital Amp (I don't know what it is), 60 wpc (8Ω)

Pros:
BluOS (Lots of streaming services)
Roon Ready

Cons:
Cannot connect computer with USB
Some issues with Roon reported by users in Roon forums


Emotiva BasX TA-100
650 USD (incl. shipment + import tax)

TA-100 Stereo Preamp/DAC/Tuner With Integrated Amplifier

The BasX TA-100 combines an audiophile quality stereo preamplifier, a high-performance FM tuner, and a high-quality power amplifier – all in one. Shop today!

emotiva.com

Class A/B, 50 wpc (8Ω)

Pros:
Can connect computer with USB

Cons:
No streamer support
Bluetooth requires dongle, and currently not available a


Marantz PM 6006
765 USD (local distributor), 540 USD (Gray Market)

Marantz | Discover Quality Equipment & Acoustics

Marantz, founded by legendary acoustic expert Saul Martinez. Shop our audio devices today and discover the incredible equipment & sounds of Marantz

www.us.marantz.com

Class D (?), 45 wpc (8Ω)

Pros:
Positive reviews and comments on forums

Cons:
Cannot connect computer with USB
No streamer support


Arcam SA10
950 USD (local distributor)

Arcam - SA10 - Class AB Integrated Amplifier

The design of the HDA range draws upon all of Arcam’s experience as one of the UK’s most respected audio companies, to produce Arcam&rs...

www.arcam.co.uk

Class A/B, 50 wpc (8Ω)

Pros:
Positive reviews

Cons:
No streamer support
Cannot connect computer with USB

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. You won't hear any difference among the different classes of amps as long as the they are LEVEL-MATCHED.

2. I would just get a Yamaha AVR (like RX-A1080 or RX-A2080). The A1080 can output 129W x 2 Ch into 8 ohms, while the A2080 can output 192W x 2Ch into 8 ohms.

Why get an AVR instead of Integrated Amp? It's more "future proof" and it sounds just as great. Also, 192W x 2Ch into 8 ohms (260W x 2Ch into 4 ohms) is pretty good.

 

[PENG]

In my opinion, the Yamaha WXC-50 + a two channel power amp such as two Outlaw M2200 will beat most if not all integrated amps at below $1,500 to $2,000 in terms of features and quality.

WXC-50 - Overview - Yamaha USA

Connect your existing home theater AV receiver or Hi-Fi system to this compact preamp, then use your Wi-Fi® network to access all of your music from a simple app. Add other MusicCast speakers, sound bars or receivers for wireless multiroom audio playback. In addition to Wi-Fi, this preamp also...

usa.yamaha.com

 

[John Parks]

Hi @meziatto and welcome to Audioholics! I will second @PENG 's suggestion as a viable alternative.

As for the Bluesound PowerNode 2i, I am not familiar with its amplification section, but as far as Roon integration goes, I have the Node 2i and it is flawless so far. I bought mine because, with my current living situation, I cannot go directly, via USB, from my desktop computer to the Yamaha A-S801 that I had (I am currently experimenting with a Pioneer Elite AVR for 2 channel listening). I have found that Roon is better than the Bluesound app, and plays absolutely everything (DSD included) that I have on my network connected computer - no need for a USB connection unless you feel you absolutely must have one.

If you mentioned it, I did not see it so please forgive me, but what is your budget?

 

[meziatto]

@AcuDefTechGuy, I hoped they sound differently, dreaming to get a better sound. Thanks for the advice. For years I used Yamaha in my study room, and 1080 is really great, but unfortunately starts from 1650 USD.

@PENG, I really impressed when I read about Outlaw on Internet. I couldn't find info for M2200, but for example Outlaw Audio RR2160 operates with 110V. I assume M2200 is also 110V. Our power lines are 220 V. This is the reason I eliminated Outlaw Audio RR2160. Otherwise, I would buy it.

@John Parks you are right I didn't mention it, I want to limit my budget 1.000 USD. But 750 USD would be great if possible.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't see anything in the manual other than it is set at the factory for 120V. http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/2200manual.pdf

Where are you?

 

[John Parks]

I don't see anything in the manual other than it is set at the factory for 120V. http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/2200manual.pdf

Where are you?

"... local distributors in Turkey..."

 

[meziatto]

I live in Turkey. I contacted them for RR2160, but they do not provide DDP shipment. DDU shipment costs too much. Amazon provides DDP for some items, so, I have to buy Outlaw Audio from Amazon if I want to buy from abroad. I cannot customize, even if possible, Outlaw Audio products.

 

[lovinthehd]

I live in Turkey. I contacted them for RR2160, but they do not provide DDP shipment. DDU shipment costs too much. Amazon provides DDP for some items, so, I have to buy Outlaw Audio from Amazon if I want to buy from abroad. I cannot customize, even if possible, Outlaw Audio products.

You have a way to avoid duties if they ship DDU? Some sort of personal exemption applies or something? As a former logistics guy (customs broker/freight forwarder) I'm curious. I wouldn't expect someone like Outlaw to do a whole lot of international shipping in any case so they may not get very good pricing.

 

[meziatto]

@lovinthehd, I happily satisfy your curiosity in detail.

Some items are under personal exemption when they are carried by passenger by himself/herself. I'm not sure which ones. I bought my Pioneer AVR in Spain and bring it with me when I returned.

Otherwise, unfortunately, with online shopping there is no way to avoid import taxes. Personal exemption was 150 USD, later government made it 75 USD, then 15 USD, now it is 0. Now you pay 5 USD fix (or something, I don't remember) + 20%. So even you ordered something free, you pay 5 USD. Also you cannot declare wrong price, because they want a live web page of online retailer showing the price. Please note even with strict policy, some people avoid import taxes illegally, but I don't know how and don't choose that way.

Worst of all, if item is over 1.500 USD, it is classified as commercial item and fix costs increase, so that, IMHO, for a single item, I prefer flight abroad, stay at hotel, buy myself and bring it back while spending less money.

About DDU vs DDP. Either way I have to pay import tax. Difference is that FedEx, DHL and other well reputable (!) carriers have a bad habit in Turkey by letting items stay in their warehouses by processing slowly and charge for
it and other hidden costs + customs brokerage costs. Sometimes you can avoid warehouse costs, but not brokerage costs.

As a result:
DDP = Item price + Shipment + 5 USD + (Item Price * 20%)
DDU = Item price + Shipment + 5 USD + (Item Price * 20%) + Brokerage Cost (~100-150 USD) + Possible Carrier Warehouse Costs (10 - 50 USD per day, 1-5 days)

In summary:
DDP ~= Item price * 1.5
DDU ~= Item price * (2 to 3)

IMHO, it is very frustrating experience to buy Hi-Fi items in Turkey, if you care your money. If you buy from local retailers, mostly you have to pay overprice (2 to 3.5). Yes, retailers also pay taxes, but since they import lots of goods, they have economies of scale and some tax advantages. Otherwise you have to buy from Amazon and pay 1.5 item price without any warranty.

For example Anthem MRX 1120 A/V Receiver is sold 6450 USD in local retailers, whereas you can buy it from crutchfield 3500 USD.

 

[lovinthehd]

@lovinthehd, I happily satisfy your curiosity in detail.

Some items are under personal exemption when they are carried by passenger by himself/herself. I'm not sure which ones. I bought my Pioneer AVR in Spain and bring it with me when I returned.

Otherwise, unfortunately, with online shopping there is no way to avoid import taxes. Personal exemption was 150 USD, later government made it 75 USD, then 15 USD, now it is 0. Now you pay 5 USD fix (or something, I don't remember) + 20%. So even you ordered something free, you pay 5 USD. Also you cannot declare wrong price, because they want a live web page of online retailer showing the price. Please note even with strict policy, some people avoid import taxes illegally, but I don't know how and don't choose that way.

Worst of all, if item is over 1.500 USD, it is classified as commercial item and fix costs increase, so that, IMHO, for a single item, I prefer flight abroad, stay at hotel, buy myself and bring it back while spending less money.

About DDU vs DDP. Either way I have to pay import tax. Difference is that FedEx, DHL and other well reputable (!) carriers have a bad habit in Turkey by letting items stay in their warehouses by processing slowly and charge for
it and other hidden costs + customs brokerage costs. Sometimes you can avoid warehouse costs, but not brokerage costs.

As a result:
DDP = Item price + Shipment + 5 USD + (Item Price * 20%)
DDU = Item price + Shipment + 5 USD + (Item Price * 20%) + Brokerage Cost (~100-150 USD) + Possible Carrier Warehouse Costs (10 - 50 USD per day, 1-5 days)

In summary:
DDP ~= Item price * 1.5
DDU ~= Item price * (2 to 3)

IMHO, it is very frustrating experience to buy Hi-Fi items in Turkey, if you care your money. If you buy from local retailers, mostly you have to pay overprice (2 to 3.5). Yes, retailers also pay taxes, but since they import lots of goods, they have economies of scale and some tax advantages. Otherwise you have to buy from Amazon and pay 1.5 item price without any warranty.

For example Anthem MRX 1120 A/V Receiver is sold 6450 USD in local retailers, whereas you can buy it from crutchfield 3500 USD.

Thanks for the detailed explanation! Yes, our personal exemptions for import into the US work similarly as yours. Hey us customs brokers need to get paid somehow. . Altho usually with the larger small package services like Fedex, DHL etc it seems they're charging a bit high (and I think our Canadian friends have complaints particularly with UPS on this sort of transaction)....Customs is probably forcing the warehouse issue as a guess (but again the services could just factor that into their costs). Perhaps they don't own their own services and contract brokerage/warehouse services out like many of them used to do (even here in the US they did that originally before they grew to the monsters they are now). Good luck on your quest for more reasonable costs on your gear....

 

[PENG]

@PENG, I really impressed when I read about Outlaw on Internet. I couldn't find info for M2200, but for example Outlaw Audio RR2160 operates with 110V. I assume M2200 is also 110V. Our power lines are 220 V. This is the reason I eliminated Outlaw Audio RR2160. Otherwise, I would buy it.

The M2200 is factory set to 115 V 60 Hz but you can switch it to 230 V 50 Hz via the selector switch as shown in the photo.

Outlaw 2200 M-Block Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Outlaw 2200 single-channel amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The 2200 costs US $399 plus shipping although I read that it goes on sale for less than that. I was surprised how svelte the 2200 is given its power capability: The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[PENG]

For example Anthem MRX 1120 A/V Receiver is sold 6450 USD in local retailers, whereas you can buy it from crutchfield 3500 USD.

It cost C$3599 in Canada, that's just 0.72X3599 = US$2,592.

It is still too much anyway (just my opinion) for what you get. Believe it or not, the Yamaha WXA-50 actually measured 3 dB better.

Audiosciencereview MRX-1120

Below is the THD+N (reciprocal of SINAD) ranking chart at 5 W into 4 ohms.
The MRX-1120 did measure a little better if used as a preamp only, but then it should be compared to the WXC-50 that is a "MusicCast Wireless Streaming Preamplifier.

I bet the WXC-50 would measure just as good for $350, that is 1/10 the price of the Anthem.

Yamaha WXC-50

 

[Chris in Dallas]

The M2200 is factory set to 115 V 60 Hz but you can switch it to 230 V 50 Hz via the selector switch as shown in the photo.

Outlaw 2200 M-Block Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Outlaw 2200 single-channel amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The 2200 costs US $399 plus shipping although I read that it goes on sale for less than that. I was surprised how svelte the 2200 is given its power capability: The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 34635


View attachment 34637

I’m chomping at the bit hoping the world holds together. Ordered three on sale for 799 *should* be here early next week !

 

[meziatto]

After @PENG points out that M2200 is configurable to 230V, I look into RR2160 whether is configurable too, but unfortunately RR2160 is not. Interestingly, I found a model called RR2180 for fear east market which is 230V here: https://www.outlawinternational.com/integrated-reciever

Of course I cannot find it on Amazon.

 

[John Parks]

@meziatto Have you considered the Yamaha R-N803? It is a network receiver with all sorts of goodies (including room correction if you want to play with it) and an excellent amplifier section, which is more than enough for your CM10s (I had its integrated amplifier brother, the A-S801 and it was a very nice unit). It retails in the US for $750USD:

R-N803 - Overview - Yamaha USA

The elegant design of the R-N803 is equally matched with powerful brainy internals – a full suite of modern technological and connectivity features make the receiver even more captivating and result in a receiver worthy to take home to your Wi-Fi® and Hi-Fi.

usa.yamaha.com

 

[meziatto]

@John Parks, seems a good advice, thank you. Ironic side of forums are, making a choice is getting harder and harder, because you get very solid advices which are totally different than yours, especially if you don't have a chance to listen personally.

 

[John Parks]

@John Parks, seems a good advice, thank you. Ironic side of forums are, making a choice is getting harder and harder, because you get very solid advices which are totally different than yours, especially if you don't have a chance to listen personally.

Yes, it is both a blessing and a curse!

 

[lovinthehd]

@John Parks, seems a good advice, thank you. Ironic side of forums are, making a choice is getting harder and harder, because you get very solid advices which are totally different than yours, especially if you don't have a chance to listen personally.

Keep in mind that most people just recommend what they've got experience with, sometimes passing along things they've read from others. The value of "listening" to an amp/receiver is minimal, they're far more similar in that respect than not.....if the amp has sufficient power, connectivity and features for you it's likely going to be just fine without a listening session. You think all the people recommeding things have heard the hundreds (thousands?) of possibilities out there? I doubt it. You can always return something if it sounds funky.

ps Forgot where you were but essentially still applies except maybe the return part if you buy in another country, but then warranty is gone, too....