Concern connecting amp to pre-amp outputs on my receiver

[alexboba]

Hey everyone!

I'm about to pull the trigger and buy the monolith 7x200 amp. I'm going to connect it to the pre-amp outs on a ONKYO TX-RZ830. My concern is what was said in this video.

Gene talks about cheaper receivers clipping when being driven past 1 volt. This language goes beyond my basic understanding of A/V. Can anyone here help me out? I just want to make sure I'm not throwing good money at something that will cause problems for me. Thanks!

 

[Mikado463]

the long of the short is what he say's about half way through......." you don't want your preamp clipping(distorting) before the signal reaches your amplifier"

 

[alexboba]

the long of the short is what he say's about half way through......." you don't want your preamp clipping(distorting) before the signal reaches your amplifier"

Is there a way to know if this will happen to me with the receiver I currently have? If yes, will it affect the sound in a noticeable way? Thanks for taking the time to reply to me

 

[Mikado463]

Gene mentions the 2 volt RMS figure of a preamp section, do you know / have your receivers full specs / capability ?

 

[alexboba]

Gene mentions the 2 volt RMS figure of a preamp section, do you know / have your receivers full specs / capability ?

My amp is the ONKYO TX-RZ830. I’ve looked around, but I can’t find anything that addresses this specifically. Any help with finding the answer would be much appreciated!

 

[lovinthehd]

Your avr's manual indicates pre-out level of 1V but isn't specified particularly otherwise (other than 470 ohm), probably just a nominal spec but hard to know unless you find a third party test for that spec (and many reviews don't confirm it, although AH has been lately making a point of it....it was the Yamaha A860 review that was particularly bad for pre-out level/distortion and got the ball rolling I believe).

The Monolith amp review's measurements (here on AH) indicate "I actually measured closer to 28.8dB voltage gain allowing the amp to reach full rated power (200 watts) with 1.43Vrms input. Most AV receivers with preamp outputs should be able to deliver this. "

I don't think Onkyos are known to come up short on pre-out level but that was mostly older models too, back when I was researching for the Onkyo I got several years ago (and my manual shows a max pre-out level of 4.6V anyways). You might check this thread to see if anyone has reported on it.

 

[alexboba]

Your avr's manual indicates pre-out level of 1V but isn't specified particularly otherwise (other than 470 ohm), probably just a nominal spec but hard to know unless you find a third party test for that spec (and many reviews don't confirm it, although AH has been lately making a point of it....it was the Yamaha A860 review that was particularly bad for pre-out level/distortion and got the ball rolling I believe).

The Monolith amp review's measurements (here on AH) indicate "I actually measured closer to 28.8dB voltage gain allowing the amp to reach full rated power (200 watts) with 1.43Vrms input. Most AV receivers with preamp outputs should be able to deliver this. "

I don't think Onkyos are known to come up short on pre-out level but that was mostly older models too, back when I was researching for the Onkyo I got several years ago (and my manual shows a max pre-out level of 4.6V anyways). You might check this thread to see if anyone has reported on it.

Thanks a ton for such a detailed response. I guess ultimately if I can't hear it should it really bother me? This isn't a receiver I plan on keeping past a year or two anyway. I'm holding out for hdmi 2.1 before another upgrade. Although I'm a bit older with a family, I still like to play video games from my PC to my TV. The 120 refresh rate and low input lag will be really nice.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks a ton for such a detailed response. I guess ultimately if I can't hear it should it really bother me? This isn't a receiver I plan on keeping past a year or two anyway. I'm holding out for hdmi 2.1 before another upgrade. Although I'm a bit older with a family, I still like to play video games from my PC to my TV. The 120 refresh rate and low input lag will be really nice.

I doubt it will be an issue. Why are you buying a power amp?

 

[alexboba]

I doubt it will be an issue. Why are you buying a power amp?

My receiver says its putting out 125 watts, but I highly doubt it. I mostly use my setup for gaming which works my surrounds more than just watching a movie. I feel like they would maybe sound better with better power. When listening to music, if I really crank the volume on my receiver, my speakers don't get that loud. I'm not 100% sold on buying an amp, I'm just trying to get the most out of my speakers.

I realize I never mentioned, my speakers are matching Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2-EX with a HSU VTF-15 MK2 sub

 

[PENG]

When listening to music, if I really crank the volume on my receiver, my speakers don't get that loud. I'm not 100% sold on buying an amp, I'm just trying to get the most out of my speakers.

I realize I never mentioned, my speakers are matching Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2-EX with a HSU VTF-15 MK2 sub

If that's the case, I don't think a 200 W amp would solve your problem. The Sierra 2-EX seems to be the limitation because it's sensitivity is anechoic sensitivity is only 85 dB/2.83V/1 meter and the power handling specs are 150 W maximum, 300 W short term peak, grille off. so if you want to listen to them at reference level you are going to have to sit very close to them.

Audiovision.de tested the RZ820 that is very similar to the RZ830, probably the same preamp/power amp sections.

Onkyo TX-RZ830 (Test)

audiovision.de

The reviewer claimed "............In terms of power measurement, the TX-RZ830 offered a few watts less than its predecessor, which, however, does not really matter with the still lavish reserves of power at all loads: with 7 fully utilized channels, it was still very good 100 (4 ohms) or 94 (6 ohms) watts are available and increases to a proud 231 watts in stereo mode (4 ohms). . "

So what is your seating distance, and when you said "if I really crank the volume...." what was the volume setting?
The Onkyo specs say -81.5 to +18 on the relative scale. Did you go pass "0"?

 

[lovinthehd]

My receiver says its putting out 125 watts, but I highly doubt it. I mostly use my setup for gaming which works my surrounds more than just watching a movie. I feel like they would maybe sound better with better power. When listening to music, if I really crank the volume on my receiver, my speakers don't get that loud. I'm not 100% sold on buying an amp, I'm just trying to get the most out of my speakers.

I realize I never mentioned, my speakers are matching Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2-EX with a HSU VTF-15 MK2 sub

Like Peng says your speakers are not all that sensitive nor are they spl monsters (I have several Ascend speakers as well, mostly now in my bedroom setup...Sierra-1 NrT, 170SEs, and a coupla pairs of 200SE speakers). The advantage of the power amp will be minimal I think compared to just your avr. I'd say more capable speakers would be a better way to go in the long run if they're not scratching your itch.

 

[alexboba]

Like Peng says your speakers are not all that sensitive nor are they spl monsters (I have several Ascend speakers as well, mostly now in my bedroom setup...Sierra-1 NrT, 170SEs, and a coupla pairs of 200SE speakers). The advantage of the power amp will be minimal I think compared to just your avr. I'd say more capable speakers would be a better way to go in the long run if they're not scratching your itch.

Hmmm this has given me more to think about. I had

If that's the case, I don't think a 200 W amp would solve your problem. The Sierra 2-EX seems to be the limitation because it's sensitivity is anechoic sensitivity is only 85 dB/2.83V/1 meter and the power handling specs are 150 W maximum, 300 W short term peak, grille off. so if you want to listen to them at reference level you are going to have to sit very close to them.

Audiovision.de tested the RZ820 that is very similar to the RZ830, probably the same preamp/power amp sections.

Onkyo TX-RZ830 (Test)

audiovision.de

The reviewer claimed "............In terms of power measurement, the TX-RZ830 offered a few watts less than its predecessor, which, however, does not really matter with the still lavish reserves of power at all loads: with 7 fully utilized channels, it was still very good 100 (4 ohms) or 94 (6 ohms) watts are available and increases to a proud 231 watts in stereo mode (4 ohms). . "

So what is your seating distance, and when you said "if I really crank the volume...." what was the volume setting?
The Onkyo specs say -81.5 to +18 on the relative scale. Did you go pass "0"?

Thanks for responding! I sit really close to my speakers. My room is only 9x11. I sit about 5 feet away from my center channel and about 6 feet from my left/right speakers. I haven't found the setting on my onkyo to show the db, its default is just 0-100. At 80ish volume I hit reference levels and its pretty dang loud. I wouldn't normally listen at that volume. When I play "ultra hd" amazon music from my computer, even at max volume its not very loud. I've read a ton of conflicting opinions on adding an amp. I don't want to piss money away for no reason, but a lot of people say that a dedicated amp really made their speakers come to life.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hmmm this has given me more to think about. I had

Thanks for responding! I sit really close to my speakers. My room is only 9x11. I sit about 5 feet away from my center channel and about 6 feet from my left/right speakers. I haven't found the setting on my onkyo to show the db, its default is just 0-100. At 80ish volume I hit reference levels and its pretty dang loud. I wouldn't normally listen at that volume. When I play "ultra hd" amazon music from my computer, even at max volume its not very loud. I've read a ton of conflicting opinions on adding an amp. I don't want to piss money away for no reason, but a lot of people say that a dedicated amp really made their speakers come to life.

Yeah I've heard that power amp making speakers sing/come alive thing, and for many many years, just never found that true in my own experience, at least not with any of the speakers I've used over the years. I have several power amps on hand but none are currently hooked up to any of my avrs. YMMV.

Your avr volume scale is the absolute scale it seems (and is in dB), so 82 or so would be reference level. P. 139 of your manual for info on changing to the relative scale (as Peng mentioned above).

If you'd like that one source to be louder you can use the Intellivolume feature, also on p.139.