Audioholics Recent video (do expensive receivers sound better than cheap receivers)

[Truthslayer]

I just wanted to point out how much I enjoyed the video. It was Short, quick and to the point. The way the more audio videos should be. So well done Gene.
I like how he made points regarding the power supplies, heat sinks and better transistors, etc. And yes there is a difference in sound quality. The use of Better quality internals, simply yield better audio results. I have tried to make these points in the past, in which some have agreed and some have disagreed.

 

[lovinthehd]

Still, mostly depends on your use (spl requirements, speakers used) rather than inherent sound quality when used within the amp sections's limitations. The digital processing part I doubt is much different in any case. If you have low impedance speakers, especially a bunch of them or without subs, then of course if you want to drive them to high levels then that can become an issue. I liked how Gene started with a Marantz avr when talking about a $500 price point and then said maybe retail was $800 while a graphic floated by saying it was actually $1k.....lots of differences there like in amps

 

[PENG]

I doubt anyone would disagree his answer "yes in general.."

 

[sterling shoote]

The gist of it is buy 8 ohm speakers. My last AVR, a circa 1993 Sony STR-GX67ES, is still used for stereo service; and, it sounds pretty much indistinguishable from my separates 5.1 system used for stereo. I think it is indeed built better than the $500 AVRs I've checked out; but, of course, it has no S/PDIF inputs, and no HDMI, which I desire. At any rate, having a desire for HDMI I've looked into AVRs out there today and the one rising to the top is the Sony STR-ZA1100ES, which abandons bells and whistles for better performance for the money. Still, I think the best route for me is a new Marantz Pre-Pro for about double the cost of the Sony, since after all, it's the sound and not connectivity features which are paramount.

 

[Hetfield]

Hey anyone smart here, at least smarter than me which is not too hard to find know what the pre-out voltage is on the Denon X3400? I can't find the info much and I use mine as a processor to control my Parasound 5 channel amp. I really would like to know if I'm fully driving the amp. I believe full voltage needed is 1.2 volts from the Parasound website. Thanks

 

[Grandzoltar]

Hey anyone smart here, at least smarter than me which is not too hard to find know what the pre-out voltage is on the Denon X3400? I can't find the info much and I use mine as a processor to control my Parasound 5 channel amp. I really would like to know if I'm fully driving the amp. I believe full voltage needed is 1.2 volts from the Parasound website. Thanks

It’s said to have 4v unclipped. I have seen measurements that suggest some distortion can begin to come in after 2v. Meeting your 1.6 requirements the Denon will have no issue achieving that.

 

[Hetfield]

It’s said to have 4v unclipped. I have seen measurements that suggest some distortion can begin to come in after 2v. Meeting your 1.6 requirements the Denon will have no issue achieving that.

Excellent, thank you. I looked through the specs but didn't know what to look for. I just looked on the Parasound website and my amp only requires 1.2 volts for full output. Thanks again.

 

[PENG]

Hey anyone smart here, at least smarter than me which is not too hard to find know what the pre-out voltage is on the Denon X3400? I can't find the info much and I use mine as a processor to control my Parasound 5 channel amp. I really would like to know if I'm fully driving the amp. I believe full voltage needed is 1.2 volts from the Parasound website. Thanks

Gene posted a distortion vs pre-out voltage graph provided by Denon for the X3600H not long ago. The X3600H has the same preamp/vol chip as the all Denon AVRs that have pre-outs including the X3400H. That means the X3400H can reach 4 V unclipped, but it may not stay absolutely clean pass 2 V for reasons Gene explained in his previous post(s) and in the video. That reason apply to the Marantz flag ship SR8012 as well. Only the AVR-X8500H has a preamp mode.

I think Grandzoltar is correct in his assumption, but I can tell you with more certainly if I have the model number of your amp.

 

[Hetfield]

Gene posted a chart provided by Denon for the X3600H not long ago. The X3600H has the same preamp/vol chip as the all Denon AVRs that have pre-outs including the X3400H. That means the X3400H can reach 4 V unclipped, but it may not stay absolutely clean pass 2 V for reasons Gene explained in his previous post(s) and in the video. That reason apply to the Marantz flag ship SR8012 as well. Only the AVR-X8500H has a preamp mode.

If you give me your Parasound's model number, I can check the spec and let you know whether the Denon can drive it to its limit and still have adequate headroom.

Thanks, great info! I have the HCA1205A Parasound amp.

 

[Pogre]

I doubt anyone would disagree his answer "yes in general.."

Yup. I just watched this video recently and in general, I agree. That's why I don't recommend entry level AVRs.

 

[PENG]

Thanks, great info! I have the HCA1205A Parasound amp.

Okay then, as you alluded to earlier, the specs say the following:

Input Sensitivity:
1 V for 28.28 V, THX Reference Level; 1.2 V for full output

According to my calculation, its gain is about 29 dB and 1.2 V input will give you an output of about 33.8 V.
33.8 V will result in about 143 W into 8 ohms or 286 W into 4 Ohms.

The AVR-X3500H measured 2 V at 0.02% THD, the X3400H should measure about the same.

Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3500H Home Theater Audio Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member. The AVR-X3500H is a 2018 model but it is still available from Amazon for US $599 despite having a retail price of US $999. If it performs, this is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Note that when he measured it at 1 and 1.2 V, THD+N improved to slightly higher than 0.0017%.

Below is a table I quickly complied using Excel, for your HCA1205A, that is, for 29 dB gain:

Power Amp gain = 29 dB	Impedance: 8 ohms (resistance)
Voltage input/pre-out (Volts)	Voltage output (Volts)	Power output (Watts into 8 ohms)
1	28.18	99
1.1	31.00	120
1.2	33.82	143
1.3	36.64	168
1.4	39.46	195
1.5	42.28	223
1.6	45.09	254
1.7	47.91	287
1.8	50.73	322
1.9	53.55	358
2	56.37	397
2.1	59.19	438
2.2	62.00	481
2.3	64.82	525
2.4	67.64	572
2.5	70.46	621

So your AVR-X3400H should have no problem getting the best out of the HCA 1205A, and have adequate headroom.

 

[Hetfield]

Okay then, as you alluded to earlier, the specs say the following:

Input Sensitivity:
1 V for 28.28 V, THX Reference Level; 1.2 V for full output

According to my calculation, its gain is about 29 dB and 1.2 V input will give you an output of about 33.8 V.
33.8 V will result in about 143 W into 8 ohms or 286 W into 4 Ohms.

The AVR-X3500H measured 2 V at 0.02% THD, the X3400H should measure the same. Amir at ASR measured it with analog input without engaging pure direct so I think the THD+N would have been better if he did. He didn't seem to realize when in Stereo mode the analog signal would go through the ADC (analog to digital converter) and then the DAC (digital to analog converter). With double conversion, the signal bound to deteriorate.

Note that when he measured it at 1 and 1.2 V, THD+N improved to about 0.0017% nonetheless.

Below is a table I quickly complied using Excel, for your HCA1205A, that is, for 29 dB gain:

Power Amp gain = 29 dB	Impedance: 8 ohms (resistance)
Voltage input/pre-out (Volts)	Voltage output (Volts)	Power output (Watts into 8 ohms)
1	28.18	99
1.1	31.00	120
1.2	33.82	143
1.3	36.64	168
1.4	39.46	195
1.5	42.28	223
1.6	45.09	254
1.7	47.91	287
1.8	50.73	322
1.9	53.55	358
2	56.37	397
2.1	59.19	438
2.2	62.00	481
2.3	64.82	525
2.4	67.64	572
2.5	70.46	621

So you AVR-X3400H should have no problem getting the best out of the HCA 1205A, and have adequate headroom.

Thank you so much! Appreciate that great response. It seems to be driving the amp well and I have no complaints. I don't listen all that lots either though, -15 for movies usually. Thanks again for the great info!

 

[PENG]

Thank you so much! Appreciate that great response. It seems to be driving the amp well and I have no complaints. I don't listen all that lots either though, -15 for movies usually. Thanks again for the great info!

So you are averaging just a few watts total, most of time it would be fractional watts for the left and right channel. No wonder you have no complains, you are basically hearing distortions free audio with plenty of headroom for those rare 20 dB peaks and remain unclipped!!

 

[Hetfield]

So you are averaging just a few watts total, most of time it would be fractional watts for the left and right channel. No wonder you have no complains, you are basically hearing distortions free audio with plenty of headroom for those rare 20 dB peaks and remain unclipped!!

Wow, never thought of it that way but interesting. Yeah I don't push my system as hard as some do. I am getting to the point I want a better sub. Love the PB1000 and what it does for the price but I want to step up. Maybe PSA or HSU sub.

 

[PENG]

While at it, here's Gene's graph that he said he got from Denon:

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3600h.

Resolution isn't great but you can see that at 4 V, THD was only about 0.0023%. ASR's measurement show higher levels, most likely for the same reason Gene mentioned in the video.

More expensive separates don't always measure better. As an good example, take a look of the much more expensive, and is a DAC/preamp only PS Audio Gain Cell DAC and you will see the Denon AVR measured much better.

Review and Measurements of the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC

This is a review and detailed measurements of the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC. It is on kind loan from someone who read my review of PS Audio DirectStream DAC and wanted to know how this model of PS Audio DAC performs. The Stellar Gain Cell costs US $1,699 which as high-end audio DACs go is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Trell]

So you are averaging just a few watts total, most of time it would be fractional watts for the left and right channel. No wonder you have no complains, you are basically hearing distortions free audio with plenty of headroom for those rare 20 dB peaks and remain unclipped!!

The devil (or something) is in the details, or fractions, if you prefer

 

[PENG]

The devil (or something) is in the details, or fractions, if you prefer

Well said, one of my Marantz power amp has meters for instantaneous output indication. It shows "fractions" of a watt on average when listening to music, with peaks rarely exceeding the 20 W mark. I also verified it with my $500 Fluke meter that basically confirmed the same measuring the voltage and then do the calculations. It makes sense too, for 0.5W average, by THX standard of 20 dB peak, that's 100 W peak, no more no less.

 

[Auditor55]

Here's how you can find out. Conduct a level matched, double blind level listening test, with various content, preferably music and see if you can tell the difference.

 

[Dolbee]

Well said, one of my Marantz power amp has meters for instantaneous output indication. It shows "fractions" of a watt on average when listening to music, with peaks rarely exceeding the 20 W mark. I also verified it with my $500 Fluke meter that basically confirmed the same measuring the voltage and then do the calculations. It makes sense too, for 0.5W average, by THX standard of 20 dB peak, that's 100 W peak, no more no less.

How loud are you playing music in this scenario?

 

[PENG]

How loud are you playing music in this scenario?

About 75 dB iirc.., from 10to 11 ft.