Help pick my home theater upgrade path! (Towers, subs, or what else)

[snakeeyes]

I know you meant KLH, but I am going to use your typo to post a tune from KLF because they were one of the great house music producers back in the day. Here is a tune that is burned in my brain from hundreds of listens over the last 30 years: 3 A.M. Eternal. This is basically the perfect house tune, a rare manifestation of a platonic ideal.

Nice! I still play that one. I had the cd 30 yrs ago but mostly I just played the one track.

 

[shadyJ]

Nice! I still play that one. I had the cd 30 yrs ago but mostly I just played the one track.

 

[hemiram]

Hi guys.

So my home theater as it stands, includes the following:

• 2 Polk LSiM 703 bookshelf speakers
• 1 Denon X4500h receiver
• Xbox One X (media streamer, and 4k Bluray player)
• Samsung JS8500 65" 4k TV

As such, I have no surround, no subwoofers, and no towers.

Planned audio additions:

1. 2 Polk LSiM 707 tower speakers -- ($1600-2000)
2. 1 Polk LSiM 706 center channel speaker -- ($500-600)
3. 2 powered 15" subs (Rythmik, HSU, JTR, etc.... not sure yet) -- ($2500+)
4. 1 power amplifier (either 2, 3, or 5 channels) -- ($1,000+)
5. 1 AVR cooler (Looking at the ACfinity S9) -- ($80)
6. ??? (could be room treatments, power conditioning, atmos speakers, etc... don't know yet... suggest something)

Since I cannot afford all of this at once... The question is.... what should my upgrade path look like?

I see a few real options here:

A) Get a center channel speaker, plus 2 subwoofers, for around ~$3,000. This will give me a complete front stage, lots of bass, and take a load off of the receiver (hopefully)... by crossing over all the bass to the subs. I don't know how much of a load off this is. I should probably add the AVR cooler in here if I do this.

Pros: Gives all the bass I will ever need in my theater up front, and gives a complete front stage.
Cons: Provides no surround sound at all, and the front sound stage may lack depth of without the towers. Receiver may still run hot powering 3 speakers, even if subs are handling the main bass.

B) Add 2 tower speakers, and a power amplifier, for around ~$3,000. This will give me a 4.0 surround sound system, and give me much more bass, since I'll be adding power amplfication and tower speakers with large woofers. A center channel and subwoofers will not be absolutely necessary yet.... as I can run a phanton center, and allow the amplified Polk towers to make the bass.

Pros: Gives instant access to surround sound, takes huge load off of the receiver.
Cons: Lacks bass from subwoofers, lacks center channel

C) Suggest your own combo? I want to stay around $2,500 to $3,000 here for this phase, and use the components I have listed above.

You and I are quite similar in our pics on equipment. I currently have a Yamaha TSR-7810, but I have a Denon X4500H coming which will be here on Friday. Front L+R are Polk LsIm 703's and I have two more of them for side surrounds. Right now I'm using a pair of old SVS bookshelf speakers for rear surrounds. I like the Polks a lot. I have a LsIm 706 Center channel, and since the Yamaha didn't quite cut it running it all, I'm running an old Onkyo M508 amp on the fronts that has been recapped and sounds very nice, IMHO. On both the amp and the AVR, I'm running ACInfinty T8's, which keep the insanely hot running Onkyo about 85F at normal volume, and the 7810 at a cool 79F. I'm running the T8's about 60% fan speed, as I can hear them if it's higher than that. If I could, I would turn the one on the Onkyo all the way up and get the temp down to about 81F. A rythmik F12 sub does the bass. I can't really do the bass I want in the apartment I'm in without the neighbors crying, so the F12 will be it for me. I would try to get the 706 center speaker now, and wait for the 707 towers, do one sub first, then add the other and then the towers if you still think you need them. The amp probably could wait unless the Denon 4500H doesn't do any better than my Yamaha did running the 703's and my old SVS center (It struggled even in an apartment!), and then putting the 706 onto it made the 7810 get upset and very hot, so I got the big giant metered amp I had wanted years ago, along with the two ACInfinity T8's to keep everything cooled off. I have some room treatment stuff that is sitting in my laundry room next to my washer, and I need to get those hung up one of these days. Just putting of them on the floor behind the fronts and the other one on the back wall made a huge improvement. I just need to figure out where I want them exactly and make sure they work as I want there, or is placement super critical.

 

[Landmonster]

HI guys.

SO this is December 2019, a follow up to my post of June 2019.



So my CURRENT home theater as it stands, includes the following:

• 2 Polk LSiM 707 main tower speakers
• 1 Polk LSiM 706c center channel speaker
• 2 Polk LSiM 705 surround tower speakers
• 1 Denon X4500h receiver (acting only as preamp)
• 1 Emotiva XPA-7 gen3 (7 channel power amp, only 5 channels being utilized now)
• Xbox One X (acting media streamer, and 4k Bluray player)
• Samsung JS8500 65" 4k TV
• Cabling: Belden 10 AWG speaker cable for all speakers... basic RCA cables from Denon to Emotiva amp

As such, I still have no subwoofers

Planned audio additions:

1. 2 powered 15+" subs (Rythmik, HSU, JTR, etc.... not sure yet) -- ($2500+)
2. Replace the Denon X4500h with some kind of pre-amp
3. Add power conditioner of some kind
4. Posisbly upgrade the LSim Speakers? (external jumpers, internal replacement parts, etc?)
5. ??? (could be room treatments, power conditioning voodoo, atmos speakers, etc... don't know yet... suggest something)
6. DAC?

What should I look at doing next?

 

[ryanosaur]

Thought this has been discussed to death...
you should add subs... then consider better speakers if you think SQ is still lacking.

...Not familiar with the Polks, but the reviews didn't impress me enough to pursue them, either. Yet I'm certain I've said this before:

This is your system... and your Ducats!

What is it you are not satisfied with, and why?
Are you just looking for justifiction or affirmation?
Your AVR is fine. You do not need a special DAC. You likely do not need a power conditioner.

A great deal of Room Acoustics can be dealt with for free... or close to it.

So again:
Sub.
Speakers.
Enjoy...

Or:

Just learn to enjoy what you have.

 

[snakeeyes]

Subwoofers.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Keep the 4500, and put the money that you’d spend on a processor to the subwoofer budget. Don’t know how you lasted this long!!!

 

[Landmonster]

Thought this has been discussed to death...
you should add subs... then consider better speakers if you think SQ is still lacking.

...Not familiar with the Polks, but the reviews didn't impress me enough to pursue them, either. Yet I'm certain I've said this before:

This is your system... and your Ducats!

What is it you are not satisfied with, and why?
Are you just looking for justifiction or affirmation?
Your AVR is fine. You do not need a special DAC. You likely do not need a power conditioner.

A great deal of Room Acoustics can be dealt with for free... or close to it.

So again:
Sub.
Speakers.
Enjoy...

Or:

Just learn to enjoy what you have.

Thanks guys.

The next main addition will almost certainly be a sub-woofer.

What is it you are not satisfied with, and why? --- I am not sure. I am seeking a path of improvement. Most notably... probably a lack of bass, and a lack of overall room acoustics. The room is still very poorly treated, and there's a lack of "slam" in some of the bass.
Are you just looking for justification or affirmation? --- Neither...
Your AVR is fine. You do not need a special DAC. You likely do not need a power conditioner. --- Some people have claimed that one of their biggest SQ upgrades came from swapping out an AV receiver for a pure pre-amp.

 

[Pogre]

How big is your room, first of all?

I don’t see why you need to replace the AVR at all, the Denon should be fine for almost any purpose, so you can prob elim that from the budget completely. Buy the AC Infinity fan. It’s cheap and will add life to your electronics.

After that, if you’re going to upgrade your speakers, I’d stick with bookshelves but you can find better options than Polk, IMO. Get a solid L/R/C setup from someone like Ascend or Aperion or Kef or Focal or Dynaudio. For the $2500 you have allocated in your budget for front stage, you can find a really nice setup.

After that, depending on your room size, get a VTF-2 or VTF-3 from Hsu, which won’t cost more than $800. You can add a second sub down the road to match. All the companies you mention have good sub options but I think Hsu has the best price-performance ratio out there.

Then add the surrounds. You can either match your L/R bookshelves or save a little $ and buy whatever model is one stage down from the same manufacturer as your front stage. I wouldn’t worry about Atmos speakers until you have your 5.1 setup where you like it.

As far as acoustic room treatments, that obv depends on your room situation. If you are dealing with something that has a ton of hard surfaces that you can’t soften with throw pillows or curtains or furniture, then that may absolutely make a huge difference. You don’t need power conditioning or any other gimmicks, just buy a decent surge protector.

Polk has their hits and misses but from what I've heard the LSiMs are legit good speakers. I know TLS hates the crossovers on the towers but I've not heard that with the bookshelves.

I'd get those subs asap. It'll add a whole new dimension to your system. I have a pair of VTF-3 MK5s and they kick nuts. Not just boom and thump either. No distortion I can hear and they sound very nice with music too.

 

[Landmonster]

Polk has their hits and misses but from what I've heard the LSiMs are legit good speakers. I know TLS hates the crossovers on the towers but I've not heard that with the bookshelves.

I'd get those subs asap. It'll add a whole new dimension to your system. I have a pair of VTF-3 MK5s and they kick nuts. Not just boom and thump either. No distortion I can hear and they sound very nice with music too.

I'm really not looking to scrap the speakers. I just bought 7 Polks... they were huge and expensive.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks guys.

The next main addition will almost certainly be a sub-woofer.

What is it you are not satisfied with, and why? --- I am not sure. I am seeking a path of improvement. Most notably... probably a lack of bass, and a lack of overall room acoustics. The room is still very poorly treated, and there's a lack of "slam" in some of the bass.
Are you just looking for justification or affirmation? --- Neither...
Your AVR is fine. You do not need a special DAC. You likely do not need a power conditioner. --- Some people have claimed that one of their biggest SQ upgrades came from swapping out an AV receiver for a pure pre-amp.

When you get a sub in the mix I think it'll help your LSiMs play louder and cleaner. You're gonna get more than just bass. You'll see. I think @ryanosaur nailed it. Get your subs, dial them in and get everything balanced then replace your speakers if still unhappy. I think what you have is pretty good already, but there's lots more out there too!

 

[Landmonster]

How big is your room, first of all?

.....

As far as acoustic room treatments, that obv depends on your room situation. If you are dealing with something that has a ton of hard surfaces that you can’t soften with throw pillows or curtains or furniture, then that may absolutely make a huge difference. You don’t need power conditioning or any other gimmicks, just buy a decent surge protector.

The room is about 16 x 16 (roughly), with 10 foot ceilings. The left wall is open to the kitchen.

The problem is, there are tons of hard surfaces..... and we replaced all our carpet with luxury vinyl plank flooring recently. I don't have a way to measure it precisely, but I feel there's way too much reverberation. If I can cheaply cut down on that, that would likely be the biggest improvement path.

 

[Landmonster]

Yea, I still need to buy 1 or 2 really good subwoofers, but that's a few months away.

I will do that before I do anything drastic, like swapping out the Denon for a pre-amp, or replacing all my speakers.

 

[Pogre]

The room is about 16 x 16 (roughly), with 10 foot ceilings. The left wall is open to the kitchen.

The problem is, there are tons of hard surfaces..... and we replaced all our carpet with luxury vinyl plank flooring recently. I don't have a way to measure it precisely, but I feel there's way too much reverberation. If I can cheaply cut down on that, that would likely be the biggest improvement path.

A throw rug in front of the system can help with early reflections. You might be a candidate for some minor room treatments if nothing but hard surfaces. Soft furniture and the aforementioned rug can definitely help tho.

 

[ryanosaur]

Your AVR is fine. You do not need a special DAC. You likely do not need a power conditioner. --- Some people have claimed that one of their biggest SQ upgrades came from swapping out an AV receiver for a pure pre-amp.

I will address this in a slightly different manner.
Your receiver, like mine, is very good and above average in quality. The likelihood of easily finding better in an affordable price bracket is going to be a daunting task.
Remember that at this level, our gear is likely as close to neutral as it can get. Moreover, there is not much evidence in my limited experience that Separates perform better.
If you want to chase electronic upgrades, then you are going to be getting into the realm of spending multiples of what you have already, and not just 2x... but 5- or 10x. Many of those possibilities may very well still leave you scratching your head in a DBT. So tread cautiously.

In terms of sound quality, it is now, and will forever be your speakers. I'm not interested in arguing this. How your speakers perform on there own, and in your room is SQ.

Room treatments can be necessary at times, but I think are often overused and applied with little reasoning. I would encourage you to make your room livable first. Decorate it and get a good pad and area rug down in front of your speakers.
Then learn how to take room measurements. Tighten up your speaker placement.
Then figure out if you need to pursue treatments.

Take time to read and learn more, too! The Master Handbook of Acoustics and Sound Reproduction are great books. Read a book about introductory speaker design just to better understand what's at play in the whole system of the loudspeaker as a whole.

I do think you are on the right path, @Landmonster , but without getting your system finalized for another few months, talking about things like DACs and replacing your binding post jumpers is foolish.

Enjoy what you have now, and get your Subs as soon as you can. Learn how to get them integrated into a good sounding system, then take stock of your situation!

Cheers!

 

[Pogre]

To add, I got more sound quality improvements from learning to measure and tighten up on speaker placement than any piece of electronics has done for me. It's truly worth the time and effort to learn. It's also part of the fun!

 

[Landmonster]

To add, I got more sound quality improvements from learning to measure and tighten up on speaker placement than any piece of electronics has done for me. It's truly worth the time and effort to learn. It's also part of the fun!

I'm open to this. Any good details on where to start, from a scientific POV?

I feel like half the sites on the internet have different opinions on how to place everything, so I'd end up just guessing and playing around with stuff, without a logical basis for what I am doing.

 

[Pogre]

Start out with the basics, like speaker placement. How close are you to a perfect triangle between you and your front speakers? If not perfect, how close can you get to that? How far out from the wall are they? Close to corners? What are the recommended distances from those room boundaries for your speakers? Tweeters at ear level? You get the idea. Some of it may seem trivial, but sometimes improving just a little bit on each those things can net you significant gains. It's about optimizing what you have as much as you can with the room you have to work with. Here are a couple of articles you can check out.

Speaker Placement Tips: How many do I need and where to put them?

Speaker Placement and Setup Tips for a 5.1 or 7.1 Home Theater System. We discuss how many speakers do you need for a great home surround sound experience.

www.audioholics.com

How to Place a Subwoofer For Best Bass Performance

Subwoofer Placement: An easy guide for placement of your home theater subwoofer. Crawl for bass to find the optimal location and achieve the best sound.

www.audioholics.com

Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips

Do the Subwoofer Crawl. It's the easiest way to find the proper placement location for your subwoofer to get the best performance and sound.

www.audioholics.com

I also downloaded REW, bought a Umik mic and learned to take measurements and make eq adjustments.

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm open to this. Any good details on where to start, from a scientific POV?

I feel like half the sites on the internet have different opinions on how to place everything, so I'd end up just guessing and playing around with stuff, without a logical basis for what I am doing.

Some of its common sense. Some, maybe not.
I think this is the right video... but even still, your room will command its own acoustics.

For me, the rules I try to follow are:
Minimum of 18" from the front wall and back of speaker.
Minimum of 30" if possible from side walls, but no closer than ~24". (This is where I noticed Corner Loading effect begin to build up the bass response of my speakers. In my room, with my speakers, this is not favorable.)
An absolute minimum of 6' between speakers on center. More is better. 8-9' is probably an ideal-ish placement if you have the room.
I do not like the Equilateral Triangle rule for LP, rather an Isosceles Triangle. I want to be further away than my speakers are from each other. Due to room size, my speakers are cramped at 6' on center, and I sit about 7.5' away from my mains.
I also prefer some asymmetry to the placement of my speakers and subs. this includes slight differences to their toe-in angle as well.
Again, this is what works for me. Mayhaps you will find something useful in here.

 

[ryanosaur]

Just a side note, I have heard/read, that is is convention for the sound engineer to mix in an equilateral triangle. This allows them to more specifically dial in the placement of sounds in the mix. The source I found most hepful... which of course I cannot locate right now... *shrugs ...argued that stepping back from that Equilateral Placement allows the Sound Stage to resolve into a better blended whole. Much the way Monet painted the Waterlilies, it is not advisable to view them from arms distance, rather...
Step back.

Again, you have to find out what's right for you.
As a musician myself, I love the feeling as if I'm in the middle of the band/ensemble. But that's a distortion of the performance. Much like looking at the painting from Monet's perspective.

The same can be applied to Subwoofers. The common approach is dogmatic, and I do not agree with it completely. Does that invalidate it? No. But there are other ways.