Receiver advice for a newbie

[snakeeyes]

Interesting speculation, food for thought I guess. I am speculating as well, if NAD do offer upgradable modules for 8k, what price would they have it for, if the 4k module is $549 currently, and how near in the future would they offer that module.
I would take a guess, 8k pass through would have to be main stream on AV receivers.

Sounds like he has v1 not v3.
Anyhow I also heard licensing on hdmi 2.1 boards (all manufactures, not just NAD) will be around 35% higher based on a thread on AVS from @mcode. He is usually right about his numbers.

Edit: But he also said eventually licensing costs go down over time.

 

[Truthslayer]

soundandvision.com typically would say nice thing about NAD AVRs because it's NAD, regardless the fact that they did not measure well on their bench, compared to other AVRs they measured.

On Audiosciencereview's bench the T758 V3's measurements were not good, again just relative to other AVRs. In terms of the often focused on THD+Noise, it ranked last or second last on their current list depending on the criteria.

Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of the NAD T758 V3 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It was kindly sent to me by a member. The T758 appears to have been released last year and costs US $1,399. The T758 is quite a bit heavier than recently measured AVRs and has a serious...

www.audiosciencereview.com

For example, based on their 5 W into 4 ohms:

View attachment 32599

and based on pre-amp output at 2 V:

View attachment 32600


That does not mean it won't sound good to people, and I am sure it does, because it also depends on how hard you push the unit. At or below its rated output, the T758 V3's pre-amp output measurement was quite decent.

Oh no, Peng, showing that with the denon avr-x3500h are going to make some very disappointed. Glad you posted it though. I jumped over and checked his review on that avr-x3500h. Seems he had the same concerns and problems that I spoke of in another thread that wasn't to popular with some. You can usually get a fairly decent idea about a products reliability looking at the build quality (not always) but it's a good indicator.

To much excessive heat and shut downs, not designed for continuous duty operation. I just hope others will read his testing review before making the purchase.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This is a very newbie question but other then having a specific feature set and claimed power output, what determines how good a receiver is? Meaning, if I find one with the correct features and power for my need, do I still have to worry about sound quality? I got a great deal on a set of used PSB Image speakers which is way more speaker then I originally planed for when I bought the Onkyo tx-nr686 receiver and want to make sure that the receiver doesn'y take away from the speakers.

These guys have you easily covered so far. The only add I have, is when you asked about “sound quality”. The difference there, between all the major AVR’s will be the room correction suite. Audyssey, mcacc, ypao, accueq and Dirac are all automated setup routines that allow the AVR to measure the room acoustically and adjust for any issues. What can happen, since they all do it a little differently is that you can get HT’s that will sound different by only changing AVR’s. Since this is new for you, I wouldn’t sweat that especially since you have a new 686. Onkyo has improved it considerably over the years and you should be fine. Not speaking for the group really, but I feel like most of us prefer Audyssey xt32 if using one at all. Some will use it to set distance and spl levels and then turn it off (audyssey). Just food for thought but I believe the Onkyo will keep you happy.

 

[Hamid Khan]

Sounds like he has v1 not v3.
Anyhow I also heard licensing on hdmi 2.1 boards (all manufactures, not just NAD) will be around 35% higher based on a thread on AVS from @mcode. He is usually right about his numbers.

Edit: But he also said eventually licensing costs go down over time.

This is good to know information, and I do agree licensing do decrease in price after a period of time. Now I am wondering if the future of receivers would be made modulated like some power amplifiers as the NAD receiver.

 

[Hamid Khan]

Unfortunately I have the original (v1),otherwise I could of just used it for my needs as v3 has 4k pass-through

NAD's receivers seem to hold it value, even if it is and older model, my concern would be, if you're planning to keep it for reuse, consider how reliable it will be, since it is a used AV receiver. However, it will not hurt if you got a few years out of it without problems.

 

[PENG]

Oh no, Peng, showing that with the denon avr-x3500h are going to make some very disappointed. Glad you posted it though. I jumped over and checked his review on that avr-x3500h. Seems he had the same concerns and problems that I spoke of in another thread that wasn't to popular with some. You can usually get a fairly decent idea about a products reliability looking at the build quality (not always) but it's a good indicator.

To much excessive heat and shut downs, not designed for continuous duty operation. I just hope others will read his testing review before making the purchase.

Audiosciencereview.com's measurements are a little complicated so no offense, but one needs to read them more carefully and quick browse may not reveal the overall pictures.

The X3500H did not have the same shutdowns issue he spoke of other units such as the RX-A1080 in the pre-out measurements.

He did talk about the unit would shutdown and that it was not designed for continuous duty operation but he did not spell out the conditions in details. Suffice to say, one should not be surprised that multi channel AVRs are not designed for continuous operation at high levels of output. Actual music and movie contents typically would not require a 7.1 AVR to output any more than 10-20 W average in a small/medium sized room sitting 8 to 13 ft or so.

X3500H - He said:

"The default output at full volume was quite a bit higher and clearly clipping. So I lowered that to 2 volt but unfortunately performance was still lousy as you see. SINAD is dominated by harmonic distortion and not noise. Clearly the output is beyond its comfort factor (shown later). For now, the ranking is poor:"

By poor, noted that he referred to THD+N of:

Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3500H Home Theater Audio Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member. The AVR-X3500H is a 2018 model but it is still available from Amazon for US $599 despite having a retail price of US $999. If it performs, this is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

AVR-X3500H:
SINAD - 73.645/73.317 dB, that is:
THD+N - 0.020784%/0.021585%

and by "default output at full volume.." he likely meant 4 V!!

Now look at the T758 V3, also measured at approx. 2 V:

SINAD - 52.533/52.556 dB, that is:
THD+N - 0.236246%/0.235607%

With pre-out voltage at approx. 2 V, for amps with 29 dB gain such as the NAD and the Denon, the power amp output would have been approx. a whopping 400 W!!

Now consider the Denonn AVR-X3500H's THD+N of approx. 0.02%, we might debate whether that is even audible, the fact is, I am sure you will agree with me that anyone using such lower mid range AVR will most likely not push the unit pre-out anywhere near 2 V, except may be for a very short time during some rare transient peaks in movies.

On the other hand, people with exceptional hearing should be able to notice the NAD's almost 0.24% THD+N, if pushed the same way.

Soundandvision.com measured the X3400H that is practically the same in audio specs, as well as the NAD T758 V3. Their results were consistent with Audiosciencerevew.com's.

The reviewers of S&V, Audiosciencereview.com, Audioholic.com all have the subjective views, but if we compared the measurements than we can at least be on the objective side of the equation.

NAD T758 V3 A/V Receiver Review Test Bench

Test Bench Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 100.6 watts 1% distortion at 113.6 watts Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 86.0 watts 1% distortion at 95.3 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1%...

www.soundandvision.com

Please not that a around 110 W, just about the rated output of the NAD, the THD+N was at approx. 0.2%
At around 105 W, the rated output of the AVR-X3400H, the THD+N was about 0.013%, quite consistent with Audiosciencereview.com's.

Denon AVR-X3400H A/V Receiver Review Test Bench

Test Bench Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 123.0 watts 1% distortion at 147.6 watts Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 97.6 watts 1% distortion at 106.1 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1%...

www.soundandvision.com

 

[HTfreak2004]

Hello. I recently purchased a used set of PSB speakers that also came with the NAD T758 receiver. I also purchased a brand new Onkyo tx-nr686 receiver from Best Buy on black Friday. I have yet to on-box it. I'm setting up a home theater and my use will be 80% movies if not more. I'm very new to the world of AV and don't really know what makes a big impact and what does not. I realize that the NAD is a better receiver but it doesn't have 4k pass-through and only one output and I need to feed to a TV and a projector. Would you recommend going through the trouble of feeding the audio and video separately and figuring out how to switch sources with the NAD or just go with the Onkyo? Would the difference be noticeable with a movie? Also, the NAD seems to be rated for 60W per channel vs the Onkyo for 100W but the NAD is MUCH heavier. Does this mean the power supplied by it, while lower, is more stable or accurate?

Thanks, Stan

A simple point I pondered and felt worth sharing. I’m using Anthem’s AVM 20 v2 since 2004.

The SSP is pre HDMI connections and all the upgraded formats used today on many available units!

If you spend enough time with a flagship unit “in its day” one fact stands out above all else - excellence!

We are using discussing the pros and cons of one component vs another while features are important the real question should be “why must you have them?”

Many of us can agree the industry holds back (more advanced tech) and exhausts the current tech of the day after convincing us it’s the next best thing since sliced bread so we shell out the hard earned dollars for components that are already obsolete without our awareness of the fact!

Many of us know the room is the boss in every setup! It dictates the pure potential for SQ we all hope to realize.

It seems to me the more mature I become in this life the more I notice the millennial attitude of the day that is nothing is ever good enough!

Look at where we are the ps3 launched in 2006 took basically 10 years to be knocked off by the ps4 and in 2019 we hearing the ps5 will be out Christmas 2020!

The old saying was “keeping up with the Jones’s” I’m just glad my ears are still the ones I was born with.

In conclusion there is one other saying I felt worth adding and it’s “Ignorance is truly bliss”. If you don’t waste your time trying to chase the components man you will usually find good enough really is good enough

 

[Truthslayer]

Audiosciencereview.com's measurements are a little complicated so no offense, but one needs to read them more carefully and quick browse may not reveal the overall pictures.

The X3500H did not have the same shutdowns issue he spoke of other units such as the RX-A1080 in the pre-out measurements.

He did talk about the unit would shutdown and that it was not designed for continuous duty operation but he did not spell out the conditions in details. Suffice to say, one should not be surprised that multi channel AVRs are not designed for continuous operation at high levels of output. Actual music and movie contents typically would not require a 7.1 AVR to output any more than 10-20 W average in a small/medium sized room sitting 8 to 13 ft or so.

X3500H - He said:

"The default output at full volume was quite a bit higher and clearly clipping. So I lowered that to 2 volt but unfortunately performance was still lousy as you see. SINAD is dominated by harmonic distortion and not noise. Clearly the output is beyond its comfort factor (shown later). For now, the ranking is poor:"

By poor, noted that he referred to THD+N of:

Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3500H Home Theater Audio Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member. The AVR-X3500H is a 2018 model but it is still available from Amazon for US $599 despite having a retail price of US $999. If it performs, this is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

AVR-X3500H:
SINAD - 73.645/73.317 dB, that is:
THD+N - 0.020784%/0.021585%

and by "default output at full volume.." he likely meant 4 V!!

Now look at the T758 V3, also measured at approx. 2 V:

SINAD - 52.533/52.556 dB, that is:
THD+N - 0.236246%/0.235607%

With pre-out voltage at approx. 2 V, for amps with 29 dB gain such as the NAD and the Denon, the power amp output would have been approx. a whopping 400 W!!

Now consider the Denonn AVR-X3500H's THD+N of approx. 0.02%, we might debate whether that is even audible, the fact is, I am sure you will agree with me that anyone using such lower mid range AVR will most likely not push the unit pre-out anywhere near 2 V, except may be for a very short time during some rare transient peaks in movies.

On the other hand, people with exceptional hearing should be able to notice the NAD's almost 0.24% THD+N, if pushed the same way.

Soundandvision.com measured the X3400H that is practically the same in audio specs, as well as the NAD T758 V3. Their results were consistent with Audiosciencerevew.com's.

The reviewers of S&V, Audiosciencereview.com, Audioholic.com all have the subjective views, but if we compared the measurements than we can at least be on the objective side of the equation.

NAD T758 V3 A/V Receiver Review Test Bench

Test Bench Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 100.6 watts 1% distortion at 113.6 watts Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 86.0 watts 1% distortion at 95.3 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1%...

www.soundandvision.com

Please not that a around 110 W, just about the rated output of the NAD, the THD+N was at approx. 0.2%
At around 105 W, the rated output of the AVR-X3400H, the THD+N was about 0.013%, quite consistent with Audiosciencereview.com's.


View attachment 32601

Denon AVR-X3400H A/V Receiver Review Test Bench

Test Bench Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 123.0 watts 1% distortion at 147.6 watts Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 97.6 watts 1% distortion at 106.1 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1%...

www.soundandvision.com

View attachment 32602

I understand what your saying, and have read the entire review. I brought it up because many here seem to taught his reviews as gospel ( which I will agree are very informative ). But have pushed this AVR-x3500h on many people. And I just had made my concerns about it earlier, and felt if it was in ones budget to to do the 3600 that it would have been a better option.
I think you might agree, many who would be buying this (3500 ) lower end model, are going to drive it fairly hard, and if not would still expect it to be able to run for for some lengthy periods. I think he (amirm) say's it pretty clear.

"The amplifier modules use the same flimsy heatsinks many other AVRs use. Here, they made a mistake of running two wide ribbon cables over the left and right channels which likely block convection cooling fair bit. In use, during my normal testing those two challens felt pretty warm, eventually leading to amp limiting power output to some 35 watts or so. I then ran my regulated power test which caused the unit to shut down and go internal protection. I put a fan on it and it would again shut down. Clearly these AVRs are not designed for continuous duty operation."

 

[tmurnin]

I own the T758 and love it because of the Dirac support and I happen to be a fan of the BluOS streaming. That said, I have it mostly for music in a 2.1 system and the tv there is not 4K. If it were me, I would not spend money on NAD upgrade modules, which I find generally overpriced for what you get. I don’t know that Onkyo receiver, but if it has the features you want, go for it and either sell the NAD or use it elsewhere as others have recommended.

 

[PENG]

I understand what your saying, and have read the entire review. I brought it up because many here seem to taught his reviews as gospel ( which I will agree are very informative ). But have pushed this AVR-x3500h on many people. And I just had made my concerns about it earlier, and felt if it was in ones budget to to do the 3600 that it would have been a better option.
I think you might agree, many who would be buying this (3500 ) lower end model, are going to drive it fairly hard, and if not would still expect it to be able to run for for some lengthy periods. I think he (amirm) say's it pretty clear.

"The amplifier modules use the same flimsy heatsinks many other AVRs use. Here, they made a mistake of running two wide ribbon cables over the left and right channels which likely block convection cooling fair bit. In use, during my normal testing those two challens felt pretty warm, eventually leading to amp limiting power output to some 35 watts or so. I then ran my regulated power test which caused the unit to shut down and go internal protection. I put a fan on it and it would again shut down. Clearly these AVRs are not designed for continuous duty operation."

I noted that, in fact I just asked him for more details. Running any avr at 1/3 power continuously is a tough test, the important thing to know is what he meant by "continuous". If he meant literally continuous, especially if under more than 2 channel driven condition, then few AVRs would pass such torture test.

The fact is, this 23 lbs AVR outperformed the >30 lbs NAD in basically all categories of tests, and by healthy margins. I don't know what you meant "drive it fairly hard.." I would agree the likes of the X3500H, even the X4500H are not suitable for medium large rooms if the user intends to watch movies at reference level SPL, though with one of those Infinity fan on top, I do expect such units would easily survive the warranty period even if pushed "fairly hard" but let's say not beyond volume setting -5 to -10 continuously, assuming vol 0 is calibrated for 70-75 dB with the test tone and at the mlp.

 

[Grandzoltar]

Each one of those AVRs he tested has their own caveats. Ones Dac measures well but amp is plagued with distortion. But the price of that Denon is 599 beating other AVR’s in certain categories that are 3 times the price. If anything his measurements show and I think AcuDefTechGuy is going to love this is all in one boxes can’t do everything right. Prepros processors DACs and external amps measure better than AVR’s in that particular testing.

 

[SwedishChef]

I wish we'd see those good prices on the Denon X3600H in the US. The lowest the X3500H has been is $549, and I think that's gone now. The X3600H I've never seen for less than $899 here. (Someone linked a Canadian retailer who wouldn't ship here and another that would but wanted well over $100 in taxes which nearly wiped out the benefit of their lower price.)

I'm sure refurbs would bring it down, some, but I haven't seen those in stock.

 

[PENG]

I wish we'd see those good prices on the Denon X3600H in the US. The lowest the X3500H has been is $549, and I think that's gone now. The X3600H I've never seen for less than $899 here. (Someone linked a Canadian retailer who wouldn't ship here and another that would but wanted well over $100 in taxes which nearly wiped out the benefit of their lower price.)

I'm sure refurbs would bring it down, some, but I haven't seen those in stock.

If you have someone near the border towns that have BB, Vision on the Canadian side then you are all set to grab the X3600H for 768 CD or 600 USD..

 

[PENG]

Each one of those AVRs he tested has their own caveats. Ones Dac measures well but amp is plagued with distortion. But the price of that Denon is 599 beating other AVR’s in certain categories that are 3 times the price. If anything his measurements show and I think AcuDefTechGuy is going to love this is all in one boxes can’t do everything right. Prepros processors DACs and external amps measure better than AVR’s in that particular testing.

Agreed, but again, Amir's general commentary should not be interpreted the same way as the likes of S&V reviewers. For example:

He said the $599 Denon DAC tested "poor", but as I mentioned before, if you looked at the facts based on his measurements:

- He obviously considered 0.021% THD+N at 2 V "poor".
- Someone suggested that he measure it at 1.2 or 1.0 V, he did and got about 0.0017%, he said it was the same at 1.2 V see post#10
- He said it went crazy after 1.5 V, that's vol 80, or "0". Obviously called it crazy meant less than 0.021%

So which one box solution at $599, or even the full list price of $999 managed that kind of performance level?

Most users in a small to medium size room would not likely push an AVR's pre-out pass 1.5 V anyway, assuming the matching external power amp is rated 200-250 WPC, though it is good to know it could do 2.0 V for extra headroom at THD that is still well below 0.1%.

To top it all, in the power test, the little light weight thing managed 159 W two channel driven into 4 ohms at below 0.01% and he said:

"The AR-X3500H massively outperforms the two NAD products in noise and distortion while matching the power rating. And on that front, the amp is exceeding its rated power."

Yes he mentioned some "shutdown" issues, but Gene had similar issue even with the SR8012, a real flag ship AVR, I bet that would happen with many "two boxes" solutions too in the under $3,000 price range.

Obviously two or more boxes are better performers in general at higher price points. For someone on a tight budget though, these below $1K one year old models, including ADTG's favorite Yamaha's are real bargains that could compete well with entry level separates that cost 2 to 3 times more.

I am glad I recommended this $599 unit multiple times in the past. A good (or better in some ways) alternative is the RX-A1080, but only if its available brand new for under $1,000.

 

[Truthslayer]

I noted that, in fact I just asked him for more details. Running any avr at 1/3 power continuously is a tough test, the important thing to know is what he meant by "continuous". If he meant literally continuous, especially if under more than 2 channel driven condition, then few AVRs would pass such torture test.

The fact is, this 23 lbs AVR outperformed the >30 lbs NAD in basically all categories of tests, and by healthy margins. I don't know what you meant "drive it fairly hard.." I would agree the likes of the X3500H, even the X4500H are not suitable for medium large rooms if the user intends to watch movies at reference level SPL, though with one of those Infinity fan on top, I do expect such units would easily survive the warranty period even if pushed "fairly hard" but let's say not beyond volume setting -5 to -10 continuously, assuming vol 0 is calibrated for 70-75 dB with the test tone and at the mlp.

I totally get what your saying brother. I whole heartedly agree the 3500 outperformed the NAD. And if I was a buyer I would tend to stay away from both. If my budget didn't allow for say the 3600, I would look to the used market to spend that $500 on a better unit.

I guess what I was trying to make a point of (maybe I didn't do a good job stating it earlier) in my replies earlier. When I spoke of continuous use driving the 3500, not necessarily pushing it to it's limits ( however many like to push the limits ). But at a decent click for a long listening session. My concerns would ultimately be on the heat factor, shut downs, longevity etc. And someone should not have to use a fan hoping to keep it cool enough as to not shutdown. And the placement of the transformer under the main board can't be a good thing. One might expect the possibilities of some bad harmonics at or on certain frequencies, due to the transformer placement.

So that's it. I was just trying to point those things out, seeing that many keep recommending the 3500. I just thought buyers should be aware of the possible downfalls of the 3500, giving them something to think about. It could turn out to be a satisfactory unit. But for me, I ( personally ) wouldn't place to much faith in it. That's all.

 

[Pogre]

I think ultimately it's been established that the AVR X3500H at $549 (or even better, $499) represents an outstanding value for a brand new modern receiver with one of the better room correction programs available.

If I had a larger budget I'd look at the X4500H before considering the X3600H in the same price range. Or wait til next year and get the 3600 for $549...

 

[Grandzoltar]

I totally get what your saying brother. I whole heartedly agree the 3500 outperformed the NAD. And if I was a buyer I would tend to stay away from both. If my budget didn't allow for say the 3600, I would look to the used market to spend that $500 on a better unit.

I guess what I was trying to make a point of (maybe I didn't do a good job stating it earlier) in my replies earlier. When I spoke of continuous use driving the 3500, not necessarily pushing it to it's limits ( however many like to push the limits ). But at a decent click for a long listening session. My concerns would ultimately be on the heat factor, shut downs, longevity etc. And someone should not have to use a fan hoping to keep it cool enough as to not shutdown. And the placement of the transformer under the main board can't be a good thing. One might expect the possibilities of some bad harmonics at or on certain frequencies, due to the transformer placement.

So that's it. I was just trying to point those things out, seeing that many keep recommending the 3500. I just thought buyers should be aware of the possible downfalls of the 3500, giving them something to think about. It could turn out to be a satisfactory unit. But for me, I ( personally ) wouldn't place to much faith in it. That's all.

His measurements were not done with music. It doesn’t matter what genre death metal, dub step or far out psychedelic music it’s not going to tax the the system when pushed towards reference levels -0 when calibrated to 75 dB. Like PENG said any rig put through that abuse would crap out they aren’t meant to sustain those test frequencies for extended periods at high spl.

 

[PENG]

I totally get what your saying brother. I whole heartedly agree the 3500 outperformed the NAD. And if I was a buyer I would tend to stay away from both. If my budget didn't allow for say the 3600, I would look to the used market to spend that $500 on a better unit.

I guess what I was trying to make a point of (maybe I didn't do a good job stating it earlier) in my replies earlier. When I spoke of continuous use driving the 3500, not necessarily pushing it to it's limits ( however many like to push the limits ). But at a decent click for a long listening session. My concerns would ultimately be on the heat factor, shut downs, longevity etc. And someone should not have to use a fan hoping to keep it cool enough as to not shutdown. And the placement of the transformer under the main board can't be a good thing. One might expect the possibilities of some bad harmonics at or on certain frequencies, due to the transformer placement.

So that's it. I was just trying to point those things out, seeing that many keep recommending the 3500. I just thought buyers should be aware of the possible downfalls of the 3500, giving them something to think about. It could turn out to be a satisfactory unit. But for me, I ( personally ) wouldn't place to much faith in it. That's all.

I actually understood your points totally right from the beginning, but we just have to agree to disagree on some of your points.

I am sure for normal use with the recommended space for ventilation the unit will not shutdown. Adding fans on top is not about preventing thermal shutdowns, but about extra longevity beyond the 3 year warranty period. I used my 4400 as prepros only and therefore have eco set to "ON", yet I still put a fan on top. It costed me about $10 and is not audible from where I sit when set to low speed.

Putting the transformer under those boards should not be an issue, especially when those transformers were specially designed for the application. You can see the very nice copper shielding, wrapped so well that you can't even see the windings. Even with some nominal amount of leakage flux, I would not worry about the minimal effects from such small transformers. I am not an audiophile and tend to pay less attention to many popular audiophile myths. There is nothing wrong to agree to disagree, once we made our points clear.

 

[PENG]

His measurements were not done with music. It doesn’t matter what genre death metal, dub step or far out psychedelic music it’s not going to tax the the system when pushed towards reference levels -0 when calibrated to 75 dB. Like PENG said any rig put through that abuse would crap out they aren’t meant to sustain those test frequencies for extended periods at high spl.

We are not alone on this. Gene had made similar comments on practical use vs frequency sweep/power output measurements. In his review of the X3300W that has practically the same preamp/amp section as the 3500, he said:

"The AVR-X3300W performed well for CEA 2006 short dynamic burst tests that didn't trip the internal current limiting circuits. It was able to muster over 200 watts/ch into 8-ohm loads and over 300 watts/ch into 4-ohm loads. The AVR-X3300W offered very respectable continuous and dynamic power reserves for its product/price category."

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X networking AV receiver features the latest in HD audio and video processing, music streaming and offers future expandability with solid preamp outputs.

www.audioholics.com

I have no qualms about having recommended the X3500H/X3400H many times. For Audioholics who are on a $500-$1,000 budget for a 7.1 receiver for use in a small to small medium room, sitting less than 4 meters and running 8 ohm nominal (dips to 4 ohm fine..), 88->90 dB/2.83V/1m speakers, these lower mid range Denon receivers are hard to beat.

 

[Truthslayer]

I think ultimately it's been established that the AVR X3500H at $549 (or even better, $499) represents an outstanding value for a brand new modern receiver with one of the better room correction programs available.

If I had a larger budget I'd look at the X4500H before considering the X3600H in the same price range. Or wait til next year and get the 3600 for $549...

Ultimately established to who ? You and a handful of others. There is no way any person who reads that article and testing can gleam it had glowing results. In fact it was quite the contrary.
Also seems like Some of the others over there at audioscience seem to bring up the same concerns I did. I am not going to repost his (amirm) results, others can go have a full read if they so desire. But when something advertises 105 watts per channel and as he said, could barely muster up 35 watts without shutting down during his testing. Just not an AVR that I would recommend to anyone, at any price. Especially when he says he has tested $30 amps that performed better. And it's ok if you want to recommend it. But don't knock me for posting concerns for future buyers to ponder.
I don't care if it's only $50, I hate to see anyone waste any money, if there's a possibility that product may not workout as they had hoped. as they had hoped.


"peng"
(quote) I have no qualms about having recommended the X3500H/X3400H many times. For Audioholics who are on a $500-$1,000 budget .

No i have no qualms over you, Pogre and a few others recommending the 3500. Yet some to seem have had an issue with me bringing up the 3600, because of the cost issue. But I clearly stated if it was in his budget to look at the 3600.
My only qualm was, when i brought up a few of my concerns regarding the 3500, some here seem to take them as ridiculous or invalid. Yet the guys over at audioscience seem to bring up the same concerns as I expressed. Some here seem to think it's (3500) a great value. But in my opinion, once a reviewer or tester or whoever states, (amirm)
"Clearly these AVRs are not designed for continuous duty operation." That should give anyone contemplating it's purchase, a little pause before making the purchase.
So when a newbie comes in asking for recommendations, it's usually a safe bet to think, they might intend on driving it hard. Not saying they will, but better to assume they might rather than not.

Just like when we drive a car. We don't usually intend to drive it hard, but there will be times when we do. And we expect and hope it will hold up. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but i think you get my drift.