Martin Logan 4-Ohm Motion XT Holiday Woes

pwrofgrayskull

pwrofgrayskull

Audioholic Intern
It’s that time of year where you can get amazing deals on great AV gear and I’ve been caught hook, line and sinker. However, as with all endeavors begun without a plan I find myself midway paused working one out. Everything I have is returnable / swappable, current equipment below:

Marantz SR6013 (110W / 8 Ohm/ 9 Ch powered, 11 Ch processed pre)
Furman Elite-15 PFi (power conditioner)
Martin Logan Motion:
- 60XT (Left/Right, not biamped)
- 50XT (Center)
- 35XT (Surrounds) on the way!

I had a Marantz MM7025 2 ch power amp but returned because it specifically says 6-8 ohm speakers only. Lame Marantz, how dare you! It worked and sounded fine but I still felt it was struggling on power. To note, when I inquired with Marantz technical support (Martin Logan claims the 60XT is compatible with 6/8 ohm amps but 4 nominal) they said running these speakers was improper and potentially warranty voiding...

Eventually going for ATMOS 7.2.4 in-ceiling setup, at a minimum I need a 2 ch power amp. So...

1) Is this a problematic underpowered current situation? I haven’t tried biamping but skeptical it’s worth the effort. I feel like I’m hearing limits at medium-high volumes. Specifically, muddy bass and overly bright mids/highs with the occasional breaking up or light crackle (could be a source issue)

2) Parasound A31 3 Ch or A21 2 Ch Power Amp? Can I make the A21 work / match with the center using the A21 gain controls? As in, center and surrounds running on the AVR. Also, am I really not supposed to use the Furman with the power amp?

3) Would a Parasound A23 2 Ch get me 90% of the way or still a power problem?

4) My cheap alternative is to run 3x Outlaw Audio Model 2200 Monoblocks, thoughts? Although, manual says not to daisy chain more than 2 units with 12v trigger and the AVR only has 1 trigger out... I don’t want to use the music trigger (not based in logic). Can I daisy 3 of these from 1 trigger out of the SR6013? Outlaw support line says they don’t know and depends on AVR.

5) Surrounds, probably the wrong thread, but I find myself torn between the ML Electromotion FX or FX2 in lieu of the 35XTs, thoughts? Is the effect of the dual folded tweeters “superior” or the is directionality of the 35XT “better”. I imagine the answer is situational but which placement is better for each speaker type. I prefer wall mounted but in the moment I was persuaded to order the 35XTs. Hopefully there’s a thread out there somewhere that covers this but I can’t find one.

5.1) Any hardware recommendations to wall mount these heavy 35XTs or is that just dumb?

6) Dealer is trying to get me to consider changing to KEF R5 (L/R),R2c (C),LS50 (S) (more reasonable power requirements) but I’m more of red wine, whisky, and steak guy with the occasional cigar. KEF seams more like a white wine, a fine wine but still. Thoughts?
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Outlaw has a black Friday deal right now (Ryan's thread) on those monoblocks. Three of 'em for $777, shipped. They should be able to handle those MLs with no problem, and sound awesome doing it.

*Edit: The SR6013 is a solid choice for a receiver too, so I'd say ya did good there!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I really liked the Martin Logan Motion 60XTs when I auditioned them. Spent WAY longer with them than anticipated. Not a great deal at full retail price, as I've heard better performance for less, but still... really good speakers!

I use an SR 6012 and 5 Outlaw 2200s running my main 5.x speakers. Rears are on the AVR and Atmos will be too (when I get there).

Although, manual says not to daisy chain more than 2 units with 12v trigger and the AVR only has 1 trigger out... I don’t want to use the music trigger (not based in logic).
This is foolish. Don't be foolish. Music Sense works fine. If anything, trigger your L/R, and run Sense on the other channels. But you called it yourself: "not based in logic."

@$1.295US per watt, the cost for 3ea of these: 200w into 8ohms, of good clean amplification... I think you will be hard pressed to beat this.

OK, back to your list:
1) Is this a problematic underpowered current situation? I haven’t tried biamping but skeptical it’s worth the effort. I feel like I’m hearing limits at medium-high volumes. Specifically, muddy bass and overly bright mids/highs with the occasional breaking up or light crackle (could be a source issue)
Bi-amping is worthless. especially from an AVR (where you are robbing available power per channel by using extra channels!!!). Just get good amplification for your front three, and maybe the L/R Surround.
By the way, pls consider that at the stated Sensitivity of the 60XT, 94dB, it only takes 1w @1 meter to achieve that SPL. If you sit 6' away in a moderate sized room, you would still be, theoretically, ABOVE REFERENCE LEVEL SPL with JUST 1w.
5.1) Any hardware recommendations to wall mount these heavy 35XTs or is that just dumb?
Best heavy duty wall mounts... maybe not pretty, but the K&M gear is sturdy. And pricey. And you have to purchase the Adapter plat you mount to the speaker separately. I wouldn't do it with the speaker attached, but from the wall bracket properly installed into a stud, I could probably do a pull up on it! I have the beefier version of these: https://www.amazon.com/K-M-Speaker-Wall-Mount/dp/B000NU0ISG/ref=pd_sbs_267_img_1/140-1829661-1192321?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000NU0ISG&pd_rd_r=f06de9ef-83b5-433b-a693-d479873b7e1d&pd_rd_w=lw6g0&pd_rd_wg=MZetN&pf_rd_p=5cfcfe89-300f-47d2-b1ad-a4e27203a02a&pf_rd_r=GFKJMNZZDZVCFG8PYC7W&psc=1&refRID=GFKJMNZZDZVCFG8PYC7W
6) Dealer is trying to get me to consider changing to KEF R5 (L/R),R2c (C),LS50 (S) (more reasonable power requirements) but I’m more of red wine, whisky, and steak guy with the occasional cigar. KEF seams more like a white wine, a fine wine but still. Thoughts?
Don't really wanna touch this... I'm not a fan of KEF. They do sound good, but I felt the old R900 sounded better than the new version. Coulda been the room. *shrugs If you've got the money to spend on KEF R-series, you can afford SALK SOUND. I would never buy KEF over Jim's work! But that's just me.
 
pwrofgrayskull

pwrofgrayskull

Audioholic Intern
I’m still struggling with the Outlaw purchase over the Parasound. I can’t go anywhere to hear either amp with the Logans. The outlaws are a phenomenal deal but I feel like I’m leaving accuracy/fidelity on the table not stretching my budget to the Parasound.

How would you attach the mounting plate to the speaker? Glue? I’m not sure you’re supposed to drill into the speaker.

After searching I’ve kinda given up on wall mounting the 35XTs. Which brings me back to the 35XT bookshelf vs FX2 wall mounted. Can I get away with stands and bookshelf speakers or is this a FX2 no brainer? If FX2 I’d corner mount one and place the other flat. If stands, how high? The stool in the corner is 24”.
48D9E216-7EC5-4B10-BCF8-4B8D72142957.jpeg
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Full Audioholic
Ryan and Pogre are pretty much on the money. As far as speakers go, don't, don't don't, let anyone influence your decision. Go with and stick with what sounds the best to you. Who cares what sounds good to someone else, let alone a dealer. It's your hard earned money and enjoyment that matters.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
As far as drilling into the speaker cabinet, the biggest concern would probably be consideration for resale but how do you think speaker mounts are put in speakers to begin with ? Do a good job and it'll be fine.

Just what would you expect to be able to hear in a comparison of the Outlaw vs Parasound amps?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I’m still struggling with the Outlaw purchase over the Parasound. I can’t go anywhere to hear either amp with the Logans. The outlaws are a phenomenal deal but I feel like I’m leaving accuracy/fidelity on the table not stretching my budget to the Parasound.
Would it cause you to feel better if you knew the Outlaw 2200 is made in the same Tiawan facility that makes Parasound amps?
Because they are!
You have a mistaken understanding if you think different power amps will change the sound character! Amps made by reputable manufacturers (and Outlaw has been around for many many years now) do not embellish the sound - you wouldn't want that anyway. You want to hear what the musicians and recording engineer intended you to hear. If an amp adds to that or subtracts from it, that would be a form of distortion. Amp design is largely a mature endeavor and all of the established companies make competent amps that cleanly and accurately amplify the signal as it is input into the amp.
The Motion 60XT are good sounding speakers which is great because they are really what determines the sound you hear. Speaker design is about as old as amp design, but the difficulty of using transducers to accurately transition from an electric signal into sound waves is extreme! If you talk to any speaker designer, they will quickly explain that it is all about deciding on the best compromises to make to get the best sound. They know that their product does indeed have an audibly unique sound signature and that is just a fact of speaker design (at least through this decade).
All you really need to be concerned about with the amp is that it is capable of properly driving your speakers (and the 2200 are fully capable with the Motions) because you can hear an amp that is struggling to perform beyond its design capability!
Just to further clarify this point, I know I am prone to believe, if I have a $20,000 bank of big monoblocks with big meters sitting in front of me that they have better sound than a less "fancy" system. However, I have tried it and if I am blindfolded and don't know which is which, I will hear no difference.
A good sales guy can get you emotionally worked up (excited) with statements like "You're not going to believe it when you hear this amp! It's going to blow you away! Not even close! Sheer ecstasy!" so that you are anticipating it so much, that you are certain it sounds better. Just like the exact same food will taste so much better after a good hike where you are hungry than it does if you are really not very hungry (or, I guess a better analogy is having the chef give you a loving description of a dish before you taste it - the anticipation influences your perception of the taste!).
The best way to do a comparison of amps is to be able to level match and switch instantly between them under double-blind conditions. That is a difficult thing to manage, but where it has been done between competently designed amps that are not being overloaded, the end result was the subjects could not consistently (reliably) distinguish between the different amps.
All of that said, I do appreciate the efforts of designers like Nelson Pass, but I see it as a matter of elegant design, not change in sound quality. One of his designs may last longer and have less distortion, but the less expensive models do not have detectable distortion, so you are not paying for Sound Quality with all of the extra cost!
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Main thing to keep in mind about drilling into cabinets...
Know the thickness of the cabinet. 3/4" MDF is great. 5/8" will work but can be difficult when installing a threaded insert. You need a drill with a good drill guide and a stop nut that you can trust. Drill deep enough into the cabinet for the threaded insert to st with the flange flush against the cabinet. A few drops of glue, and set the insert into the cabinet. Next day, you are good to go.
I've done four speakers like this. Yes, it will hurt potential resale value. Especially if you c0ck it up and drill through the cabinet.
Also, piano black finish or anything like that is very unfriendly to drill through. I haven't tried with a forstner bit. Might work better. but that type of painted finish is very fragile and wants to chip away.

(From a DIY perspective, I would recommend planning ahead and installing t-nuts into the speaker prior to finishing, and including in the design an extra layer of wood on the inside of the cabinet, especially for a sealed design. This will make certain there are no additional leaks due to the t-nuts. Mount the t-nuts on the back panel, laminate and press the inner wall, and voila!)
 
pwrofgrayskull

pwrofgrayskull

Audioholic Intern
Outlaw has a black Friday deal right now on those monoblocks. Three of 'em for $777, shipped. They should be able to handle those MLs with no problem, and sound awesome doing it.

*Edit: The SR6013 is a solid choice for a receiver too, so I'd say ya did good there!
Thanks for this heads up! What a great time to be buying gear. The SR6013 was $900 and the Logans were $2700 for all 5 XT speakers. In the market for a sub but my old Polk PSW505 will do for now. Last year’s models FTW!
 
pwrofgrayskull

pwrofgrayskull

Audioholic Intern
Would it cause you to feel better if you knew the Outlaw 2200 is made in the same Tiawan facility that makes Parasound amps?
Because they are!
You have a mistaken understanding if you think different power amps will change the sound character! Amps made by reputable manufacturers (and Outlaw has been around for many many years now) do not embellish the sound - you wouldn't want that anyway. You want to hear what the musicians and recording engineer intended you to hear. If an amp adds to that or subtracts from it, that would be a form of distortion. Amp design is largely a mature endeavor and all of the established companies make competent amps that cleanly and accurately amplify the signal as it is input into the amp.
The Motion 60XT are good sounding speakers which is great because they are really what determines the sound you hear. Speaker design is about as old as amp design, but the difficulty of using transducers to accurately transition from an electric signal into sound waves is extreme! If you talk to any speaker designer, they will quickly explain that it is all about deciding on the best compromises to make to get the best sound. They know that their product does indeed have an audibly unique sound signature and that is just a fact of speaker design (at least through this decade).
All you really need to be concerned about with the amp is that it is capable of properly driving your speakers (and the 2200 are fully capable with the Motions) because you can hear an amp that is struggling to perform beyond its design capability!
Just to further clarify this point, I know I am prone to believe, if I have a $20,000 bank of big monoblocks with big meters sitting in front of me that they have better sound than a less "fancy" system. However, I have tried it and if I am blindfolded and don't know which is which, I will hear no difference.
A good sales guy can get you emotionally worked up (excited) with statements like "You're not going to believe it when you hear this amp! It's going to blow you away! Not even close! Sheer ecstasy!" so that you are anticipating it so much, that you are certain it sounds better. Just like the exact same food will taste so much better after a good hike where you are hungry than it does if you are really not very hungry (or, I guess a better analogy is having the chef give you a loving description of a dish before you taste it - the anticipation influences your perception of the taste!).
The best way to do a comparison of amps is to be able to level match and switch instantly between them under double-blind conditions. That is a difficult thing to manage, but where it has been done between competently designed amps that are not being overloaded, the end result was the subjects could not consistently (reliably) distinguish between the different amps.
All of that said, I do appreciate the efforts of designers like Nelson Pass, but I see it as a matter of elegant design, not change in sound quality. One of his designs may last longer and have less distortion, but the less expensive models do not have detectable distortion, so you are not paying for Sound Quality with all of the extra cost!
But they’re just so darn pretty! And... the perfect wattage... and a solid model performance history... :(
F795B1C3-2FA8-4355-B322-A5CC93A57200.jpeg
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic General
Im very happy with my a31. Never tried outlaw but they are popular on the forum.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Audio jewelry indeed! A beauty.
I can't rag on you too bad tho. I bought bigger than I needed too, but then again the Outlaw deal wasn't around when I was shopping either. It really does come down to aesthetics tho. If you like the way it looks and you think it's worth the extra expense go for it. Just know that functionally the 2200s will do the same job and sound just as good as the Parasound. I don't believe you could hear the difference if you didn't know which was which (blind test).
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Functional, utilitarian beauty:



Sent from a handheld device using a silly little app.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Functional, utilitarian beauty:



Sent from a handheld device using a silly little app.
I think they look nice!

Another positive is if you lose an amp channel they're easier and cheaper to fix, replace or ship out of warranty and you're not out of business while waiting.
 
pwrofgrayskull

pwrofgrayskull

Audioholic Intern
As far as drilling into the speaker cabinet, the biggest concern would probably be consideration for resale but how do you think speaker mounts are put in speakers to begin with ? Do a good job and it'll be fine.

Just what would you expect to be able to hear in a comparison of the Outlaw vs Parasound amps?
I’m not concerned about resale, just the integrity of the cabinet and it’s ability to support the speaker. The Logan tech support recommended against the attempt (but they probably all do). It drove me to consider the electromotion FX2 speakers as an alternative because they are intended to be wall mounted and have dual tweeters for greater dispersion.

I suppose I imagined that the Parasound would be capable of delivering more detailed bass at higher volumes and keep this performance for a longer life due to the higher wattage, quality of build, and the history of the model.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I think the 35xt’s are beautiful and imo wiil be a much better speaker than the fx2. Amazon says they’re only 18lbs. IMO, not a big deal. I used to have these guys wall mounted. 35lbs each iirc.

Those mounts are Vogel’s vbl 200. A more affordable option is videosecu. Good for 33 lbs. VideoSecu One Pair of Side Clamping Bookshelf Speaker Mounting Bracket with Swivel and Tilt for Large Surrounding Sound Speakers MS56B 3LH https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000X9O8SI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_CKD2Db3KC8KAH
Just more food for thought. Also,(as I have one mixed in with my other subs) I would consider upgrading that ps505 as soon as you can. @Pogre will feel this one. Good quality bass shouldn’t be underestimated, and when you have great ML speakers, you’ll want to underpin them the right way. Smooth controlled linear bass. Mmmmm, deeeelicious.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
But they’re just so darn pretty! And... the perfect wattage... and a solid model performance history... :(
View attachment 32375
If you like the looks enough to pay for it, go for it!
I just want to keep you honest in that you are paying extra for looks, not SQ!

Personally, I think think the stacked monoblocks look better, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Also,(as I have one mixed in with my other subs) I would consider upgrading that ps505 as soon as you can. @Pogre will feel this one. Good quality bass shouldn’t be underestimated, and when you have great ML speakers, you’ll want to underpin them the right way. Smooth controlled linear bass. Mmmmm, deeeelicious.
Very true. A good sub has a way of cleaning up your whole system. I couldn't believe the difference going from a mediocre sub to a true, good clean sub. It felt like I got all new speakers.
 
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