Replacing Yamaha RX-A2000

[beermati]

Hi - new to the forum and I see a lot of helpful posts, but can't settle my issue.

As stated, I have Yamaha RX-A2000, but have upgraded to 4K TV and for WAF need to keep single video input into the TV even though only 4k source currently is Apple TV.

The media room is enclosed, about 20' long, 12 feet wide and has 9' ceiling. I have 5.1 Klipsch Reference: floor R/L, large center, 3-way wall-mount surrounds, and in-wall rears. There are two rows of 3 seats starting from rear wall. I may add ceiling speakers later.

Use is about 50% movie and 50% gaming.

I'm looking at the RX-A1080, but read some concerns about lack of auto lagging. Perhaps even the RX-A880 would be sufficient for my setup otherwise?

Or, after having Yamaha as AVR for last ~20 years, I'm seeing a lot of very positive reviews for the Denon AVR, either X3600H (vs the A1080) or the X2600H (vs the A880).

Apologies for the rambling post, but I really could use some assistance as I need to make a decision quickly.

 

[everettT]

Personally I'd stay in the 2000 series if Yamaha, if not the Denon 3000 series would be my choice. You could get the 3500 for a steal, and soon the 3600.

 

[KEW]

Hi - new to the forum and I see a lot of helpful posts, but can't settle my issue.

As stated, I have Yamaha RX-A2000, but have upgraded to 4K TV and for WAF need to keep single video input into the TV even though only 4k source currently is Apple TV.

The media room is enclosed, about 20' long, 12 feet wide and has 9' ceiling. I have 5.1 Klipsch Reference: floor R/L, large center, 3-way wall-mount surrounds, and in-wall rears. There are two rows of 3 seats starting from rear wall. I may add ceiling speakers later.

Use is about 50% movie and 50% gaming.

I'm looking at the RX-A1080, but read some concerns about lack of auto lagging. Perhaps even the RX-A880 would be sufficient for my setup otherwise?

Or, after having Yamaha as AVR for last ~20 years, I'm seeing a lot of very positive reviews for the Denon AVR, either X3600H (vs the A1080) or the X2600H (vs the A880).

Apologies for the rambling post, but I really could use some assistance as I need to make a decision quickly.

If buying Yamaha, avoid the A8X0 or A10X0. The A20X0 or A30X0 are fine!
You might be fine with the efficiency of the Klipsch speakers, but I would not chance it. Denon does a better job for power in this price range.
Here are comments from AH review of A860:

While the RX-A860 is fine driving small bass-managed 8 ohm speakers, this is the first time I'd actually caution people against using 4 ohm speakers or even running 8 ohm tower speakers on the “large” setting. I’ve never said this about a Yamaha before. It's sad that a $400 predecessor from the very same company offered a more robust amp and power section than this product, which has AVENTAGE moniker stamped on it. To pour further salt on the power wound, the preamp out section of this receiver is a bit weak, making it critical to match with a high gain amplifier to ensure the preamp itself doesn't clip while driving external amplification. I'd like to see Yamaha beef up the amp section so the current limiting could be a little less restrictive and for God's sake, please give us a clean 2Vrms output from the pre-outs of ALL your AV receivers!

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

If you go Denon, I would take the 3600 over the 2600 for Audyssey XT 32 roomEQ..

 

[Andrein]

A10x0 are also fine if you ok with 7.2 and do not need separate delay settings for your subs. The issue KEW is referring to was related to a8x0 and below.

 

[KEW]

A10x0 are also fine if you ok with 7.2 and do not need separate delay settings for your subs. The issue KEW is referring to was related to a8x0 and below.

That was what we thought earlier.
I wish I could remember the details, but it seems that the A10X0 was established to be problematic in another thread.
Maybe the power was better but the pre-amp outs were still weak? I don't remember...
Perhaps @PENG was involved and remembers?

 

[beermati]

If buying Yamaha, avoid the A8X0 or A10X0. The A20X0 or A30X0 are fine!
You might be fine with the efficiency of the Klipsch speakers, but I would not chance it. Denon does a better job for power in this price range.

Thanks all the quick replies!

I'm not clear on this comment. Are you saying A3600H is better option than A2000?

 

[Andrein]

That was what we thought earlier.
I wish I could remember the details, but it seems that the A10X0 was established to be problematic in another thread.
Maybe the power was better but the pre-amp outs were still weak? I don't remember...
Perhaps @PENG was involved and remembers?

I think we cleared a10x0. It has the same 2v preouts as 30x0. Unless there is another issue which I dont know about.

 

[PENG]

That was what we thought earlier.
I wish I could remember the details, but it seems that the A10X0 was established to be problematic in another thread.
Maybe the power was better but the pre-amp outs were still weak? I don't remember...
Perhaps @PENG was involved and remembers?

I can't say anything about that for the newer models as I don't have the info. The RX-A1050, A2060, A3050 do share the same volume control IC and OP amp for the pre outs so I would imagine their pre out performance would be very similar if not exactly the same.

The one thing we can go by the newer model is measurements available on audiosciencereview.com, in which the reviewer noted:

Review and Measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). I purchased this solely for the purpose of testing through my company (Madrona Digital is a dealer for Yamaha among many other brands). The RX-A1080 is part of the upper tier of Yamaha AVRs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

"As is typical of these AVRs, nominal output falls short of 2 volts we like to see out of stand-alone DACs. To get there, I turned up the volume a couple of dBs "

"The unit though was at the verge of shutting down despite me leaving speaker terminals disconnected. If I just dialed up the volume 0.5 to 1 dB, it would shut down. So for the rest of the measurements I went with 0 dB volume level. "

Based on that, along with Gene's measurements on the AVR-X3300H, I would say as long as one sticks with power amps with gain 28-29 dB, rated 150-200 W, the RX-A10X0 should be fine. For those who need much more WPC, such as those using the notorious Polk Audio big towers and sit 3m or more, and who needs near ref level spl, then I would go with D&M's.

That's all about pre out performance, for power output the 20X0 and 30X0 are virtually the same but not the 10X0s are obviously less powerful.

I might be able say more about the potential difference between the RX-A1080, 2080, 3080 if someone would spend a few dollars to buy the service manuals for me.

 

[snakeeyes]

If you like the A2000, then go with the A2080. My 2060 has been a great AVR for me.

 

[beermati]

Thanks for the replies. It looks like the consensus is that the Yamaha A2080 is the better option vs A1080, based on these replies.

If buying Yamaha, avoid the A8X0 or A10X0. The A20X0 or A30X0 are fine!
You might be fine with the efficiency of the Klipsch speakers, but I would not chance it. Denon does a better job for power in this price range.

@KEW - I think understand: you meant if I were to go with A880 or A1080, then the Denon is better in the lower price range, but that the RX-A2080 or 3080 are preferred vs Denon.

 

[KEW]

Thanks all the quick replies!

I'm not clear on this comment. Are you saying A3600H is better option than A2000?

I think we cleared a10x0. It has the same 2v preouts as 30x0. Unless there is another issue which I dont know about.

Sorry, I probably should not have made that post since I was so sketchy on the facts. I do remember the A10X0 was consider "a good one" and was surprised when it later came to light that there was some question of its performance. It was probably the review that Peng referenced.
In any case, I will defer to PENG's evaluation as being much more informative!

 

[KEW]

Thanks for the replies. It looks like the consensus is that the Yamaha A2080 is the better option vs A1080, based on these replies.



@KEW - I think understand: you meant if I were to go with A880 or A1080, then the Denon is better in the lower price range, but that the RX-A2080 or 3080 are preferred vs Denon.

I, personally, would go with the Denon over the 2080. I would consider both solid AVRs and fully capable from a power standpoint. The Yamaha may have a slight edge in reliability, but I have never had a reliability issue (I also am very conscious of keeping the temperature down by allowing clearance and/or ventilation).
The reason I would choose the Denon is because of the Audyssey XT 32 feature combined with the add-on app for controlling Audyssey.

Here is a better explanation of why I believe this is significant:

New Setup

Well the “befores” don’t look too bad except for the huge peak at 30hz. Couple of dips but nothing super offensive. Of course now I’ll have to look again lol. But just so you know, the “after” graphs are only estimates that Audyssey makes as to what it can do. They’re not the actual...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[beermati]

I, personally, would go with the Denon over the 2080. I would consider both solid AVRs and fully capable from a power standpoint. The Yamaha may have a slight edge in reliability, but I have never had a reliability issue (I also am very conscious of keeping the temperature down by allowing clearance and/or ventilation).
The reason I would choose the Denon is because of the Audyssey XT 32 feature combined with the add-on app for controlling Audyssey.

@KEW - thanks for the additional details, including your personal view. I had read about the Audyssey XT32 and other improvements on the Denon vs Yamaha recently. I agree on the reliability, I've not had any problems with AVRs, it's always a replacement on functionality.

 

[KEW]

@KEW - thanks for the additional details, including your personal view. I had read about the Audyssey XT32 and other improvements on the Denon vs Yamaha recently. I agree on the reliability, I've not had any problems with AVRs, it's always a replacement on functionality.

Just in case you don't read the linked material, my point is that the combination of Audyssey XT32 with the app allows you to only apply Audyssey to the low frequencies where bass is subject to room modes. There is lots of debate on using RoomEQ for full range correction. There is little debate on using room correction for the low frequencies where room resonances enter into the equation. If you are already using something like a miniDSP with REW to tune your subs, it may not be relevant to you, but the AUdyssey/app approach does have the advantage of also addressing bass frequencies just above the crossover point which are subject to room resonances.

 

[beermati]

Kurt - thanks, I will read the material, but had not when I posted. I don't mind spending the extra $400 for A2080, but if the Denon has similar performance and some feature advantages (oversimplified, I know).

 

[snakeeyes]

I did see in the RP-8000F review it was less efficient than Klipsch stated but you said reference not reference premier so I’ll agree with Everett’s post. . Most Klipsch are extremely efficient but not all.

I’m not sure if Denon 3500 would be enough power for the RP-8000F plus surrounds without a 2ch amp.

 

[PENG]

I did see in the RP-8000F review it was less efficient than Klipsch stated but you said reference not reference premier so I’ll agree with Everett’s post. . Most Klipsch are extremely efficient but not all.

I’m not sure if Denon 3500 would be enough power for the RP-8000F plus surrounds without a 2ch amp.

How much less efficient, or rather, sensitive?

It's specified 98 dB, suppose it is actually 95 dB, pairing them with a 50 W amp would be like pairing a 89 dB sensitive speaker with a 200 W amp.

Not too many would consider a 200 W amp driving 89 dB/2.83v/1m, 8 ohms nominal not adequate, but as always seating distance and desired spl play a large part. So my favorite response, it depends..

 

[snakeeyes]

How much less efficient, or rather, sensitive?

It's specified 98 dB, suppose it is actually 95 dB, pairing them with a 50 W amp would be like pairing a 89 dB sensitive speaker with a 200 W amp.

Not too many would consider a 200 W amp driving 89 dB/2.83v/1m, 8 ohms nominal not adequate, but as always seating distance and desired spl play a large part. So my favorite response, it depends..

Actually in re-reading James’s review it’s still very efficient, just not 98 so no problem for the Denon 3500.

He measured:

92.1 dB for 2.83v at 1 meter

 

[beermati]

Thanks for those additional replies. As an FYI, my Klipsch are older RF-3 (sides), RC-3 (center), RS-3 (surround) and I don't recall the model on the in-wall rears, which I added later. I also don't have the sub model number, but it's the powered Klipsch sub that was part of the Reference Series at the original purchase.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for those additional replies. As an FYI, my Klipsch are older RF-3 (sides), RC-3 (center), RS-3 (surround) and I don't recall the model on the in-wall rears, which I added later. I also don't have the sub model number, but it's the powered Klipsch sub that was part of the Reference Series at the original purchase.

With those speakers, you can hit reference level from 3-4 meters with just one speaker powered by 100 WPC. The X3600H can do the job, but you should put an external fan (the Infinity ones on the lowest speed will do and it will be quiet) on top just for better longivity.

If you want to give them 3 dB additional headroom, not that you have to, then a 3X200 WPC power amp for the L/R/C speakers should be good enough.