Best setup for my new toys

[IansDad88(Don)]

To begin, yes I'm essentially a noob. I know more about car audio than home systems, but I think I know a basic formula that works with both. Buy the best product you can afford, always from the best brand/manufacturer.

Having said that there are a few things I'm unsure of and rather than list a thousand questions I thought I might just list my products and ask a simple WWYD and see what gets thrown back at me.

Currently own -
Onkyo TX-8140. Is a few years old but relatively new to me. 70W x2 @ 008THD. Has A/B speaker option but no mention of BI-AMPING. Wireless but limited choices (Pandora is only real option of my subscriptions)

Speakers - Klipsch RP-160M

Arriving Thursday.
Marantz M-CR612.

Probably new enough I don't need to list stats, but {50Wx2. 007 THD @6 or 30W x 4 Bi-amped) so the big thing is the obvious Bi-amp option I now have for the Klipsch.

Needless to say this new toy has all the wireless options and since I already have my HEOS setup for my AVR (Marantz 6013 running my Home Theatre.).

Oh, yeah, not part of the query here as it's obvious but I also have a Klipsch 10" SWi wireless Sub. (definitely going in the mix) - - More importantly though to my question is this.

So.... What would you do..?

* I really like the Onkyo, but it's limited. It has more power, but no Bi-Amping.

* Obviously I love the RP-160M 's but I think I hear them begging me to remove the speaker wire connection plate so they can be even more awesome - Bi-amped.

* M-CR612 let's me Bi-amp but at less than half the power of the Onkyo. *and yes, I know watts as a power rating isn't a 1:1 ratio, all things considered. But I'm taking a guess that the THD and S/N being so similar between the Onkyo and Marantz that's is close enough to a 1:1 ratio... More or less...

Normally I wouldn't bother posting a question. I had an original backup plan just to swap the Marantz for the Onkyo anyway (then eventually using it for extra Height or Rears on the 6013 Home Theater, taking it from 9.2.1 to 11.2.1 or even 7.2.2)

Anyway, problem is everything I read about this Bi-Amping makes me think I'm robbing myself and my Klipsch of their best performance if I don't do it... But I can't afford the power distribution plant of the Marantz 7705 so the only amps I have are the ones I actually have!

So... Bi , Straight, mixed..? Ugh, sounds like that's for a different forum, but it's essentially just what I'm trying to figure out.

Well, assuming any of this makes sense written out as it almost does in my head, I ask you. What would you do..?

(location is not an issue, this is simply to get the best CD and Streaming sound, clarity and fidelity thru my RP-160M 's because I've wanted these since I was a kid 40 years ago, and I can finally try to get the best I can afford out of them. All things being relative (to my wallet to be specific)

Thanks... sorry it was so long, and doubly so if you read it and thought "what is this moron doing in this forum...?"

-Don

 

[nbk13nw]

I would rethink the "bi-amping" thing. Never heard a difference when I tried it years ago. No one lately has anything positive to say. Nothing negative, but no gains

 

[lovinthehd]

I wouldn't bother with the passive bi-amping of that speaker. Waste of wire IMO. Try this article https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

As long as your current amp works well, i.e. no distortion/clipping at your listening levels, I'd just enjoy the speakers. Don't worry so much about the electronics, the sound quality is mostly in your speakers and your room. Not sure why you want that Marantz unit at all....

Not sure what you mean about the Klipsch 160M being something you've longed for for 40 years....they're fairly recently released.

 

[ryanosaur]

No harm, but I agree... zero good reason to bi amp those speakers.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

What you’re really shortchanging yourself on is that sub. It’s a bottom-feeder.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[KEW]

Passive Bi-amping is generally considered a pointless project, yielding insignificant change in the sound quality.
However, in your case it would definitely be a step backwards because you are switching to lower powered amps when you bi-amp.
In the instance of your speakers, I believe it it safe to say the horn tweeter would not stress many amps!
However, the more traditional woofer is going to require more power than the tweeter.
So, right now you have 60 watts available to that woofer. When you Bi-amp, you will only have 30 Watts available to it. I believe the tweeter will be happy either way!
Maybe 30 Watts is enough to power the woofer, but if you like to crank it on occasion and do not sit close to the speakers, I could see the greater capability of the Onkyo proving its worth!

 

[KEW]

What you’re really shortchanging yourself on is that sub. It’s a bottom-feeder.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

What he said!

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

I wouldn't bother with the passive bi-amping of that speaker. Waste of wire IMO. Try this article

As long as your current amp works well, i.e. no distortion/clipping at your listening levels, I'd just enjoy the speakers. Don't worry so much about the electronics, the sound quality is mostly in your speakers and your room. Not sure why you want that Marantz unit at all....

Not sure what you mean about the Klipsch 160M being something you've longed for for 40 years....they're fairly recently released.

Thanks for the link, I'll read it. I meant wanting "Klipsch" speakers and decent ones for all those years. They were making them back then and I just really liked them. I still remember the sound room from back in the day. Obviously not Forte III's but I think you understand now. In my house these are the best bookshelves in my budget and I really like them.

I guess, also because of my age, my Mom tossed my Albums when I went into the Service, but I've maintained a decent collection of CDs. So I don't have a decent CD player/DAC or full service streaming system outside of the 6913. And I don't always listen to music on that.

You really think it was a waste? I almost got the 6006 CD player and an amp but that was almost $500 more.

I'm actually a retired, partially disabled vet, so income is a factor. Sometimes means getting a combo unit vs components, sometimes means a 6013 reduced $600 at new model release.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

What you’re really shortchanging yourself on is that sub. It’s a bottom-feeder.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Thanks... No doubt you're right, but again, it's in my price range and I'm just wanting to hear a decent representation of some bass when I put on Moving Pictures or some Talking Heads. I know I won't win awards, but I have a pretty snall house with small rooms and I only need a solid tight thump that I don't want the speakers trying to reproduce at volume. Your suggestion was the 12, or going mismatched brands?

Thanks again...

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Passive Bi-amping is generally considered a pointless project, yielding insignificant change in the sound quality.
However, in your case it would definitely be a step backwards because you are switching to lower powered amps when you bi-amp.
In the instance of your speakers, I believe it it safe to say the horn tweeter would not stress many amps!
However, the more traditional woofer is going to require more power than the tweeter.
So, right now you have 60 watts available to that woofer. When you Bi-amp, you will only have 30 Watts available to it. I believe the tweeter will be happy either way!
Maybe 30 Watts is enough to power the woofer, but if you like to crank it on occasion and do not sit close to the speakers, I could see the greater capability of the Onkyo proving its worth!

Appreciate the response. If I'm reading you correctly you're saying like everyone else, just let the Onkyo 70W keep doing its thing, OR possibly put the Onkyo on the Woofers and the 50 Watts from the M-CR612 on the tweeters and then balance them out..?

I apologize if I misunderstood. I'm really trying to learn, and understand all my options.

Sounds like the general consensus is to "pre" the CD/Streamer thru the Onkyo to the speakers, bypassing the lower amp power in the M-CR612, and just keep it simple. I'm fine with that, like I said, I'm trying to learn.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the link, I'll read it. I meant wanting "Klipsch" speakers and decent ones for all those years. They were making them back then and I just really liked them. I still remember the sound room from back in the day. Obviously not Forte III's but I think you understand now. In my house these are the best bookshelves in my budget and I really like them.

I guess, also because of my age, my Mom tossed my Albums when I went into the Service, but I've maintained a decent collection of CDs. So I don't have a decent CD player/DAC or full service streaming system outside of the 6913. And I don't always listen to music on that.

You really think it was a waste? I almost got the 6006 CD player and an amp but that was almost $500 more.

I'm actually a retired, partially disabled vet, so income is a factor. Sometimes means getting a combo unit vs components, sometimes means a 6013 reduced $600 at new model release.

Klipsch today doesn't have a lot to do with Klipsch of 40 years ago IMO, especially not that model, fairly different. Liking the speakers is a good thing tho. For more bass you have a sub altho the 8140 isn't the best tool for integration, but it will work.

I meant the Marantz M-CR612 not the 6013; the M-CR612 just duplicates something you already have. A decent optical disc player (bluray players these days can play cd, dvd and bluray discs) can do what you want for far less than the M-CR612; your 8140 already has a DAC and streaming capabilities. The amp section certainly is superfluous and not as powerful. Particularly if money is a concern, I just don't "get" the M-CR612's value since you already have a good receiver to use.

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Just finished the link, and believe I understand it. Thanks again for that.

I also think I understand you're point about the DVD to the Onkyo and just dealing with it. Especially since I don't have a problem matching that amp to the Speakers.

Only problem is, the DVD and Bluray are on the living room running the Home Theatre thru the 6013. - The setup were talking about is in a different location entirely. So that's why. I don't have a second DVD or Bluray, (at least not one that isn't a 20 year old $50 Sony half of which is a VCR! - The old DVD/VCR combo). And I didn't want to drop 2 channels from the 6013 to go with a Zone 2.

So again the 6006 with a PM 8006..? I think the 70W model was would have been great but this is minimum $500 less.

And lastly the Onkyo doesn't have Amazon or Tidal streaming, and the CR612 being a 2019 model has everything. I'm kinda hoping to go with the highest AAC bitrate for both systems. Lastly, HEOS blows away the lame app the Onkyo has available.

But again, since I'm learning and trying to forget what I think I know and take in everything as a complete moon, I wouldn't be shocked if you told me that was all just goobly goo mumbo jumbo as well.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks... No doubt you're right, but again, it's in my price range and I'm just wanting to hear a decent representation of some bass when I put on Moving Pictures or some Talking Heads. I know I won't win awards, but I have a pretty snall house with small rooms and I only need a solid tight thump that I don't want the speakers trying to reproduce at volume. Your suggestion was the 12, or going mismatched brands?

Thanks again...

Use the money you're going to spend on cables and electronics and put it into a decent sub. That amp you're talking about getting seems like a step backward, imo. Passive bi amping won't net you any gains. I've switched back and forth with it a couple of times now and to me there is absolutely no difference in sound quality at all. I would not buy electronics just for the capability.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just finished the link, and believe I understand it. Thanks again for that.

I also think I understand you're point about the DVD to the Onkyo and just dealing with it. Especially since I don't have a problem matching that amp to the Speakers.

Only problem is, the DVD and Bluray are on the living room running the Home Theatre thru the 6013. - The setup were talking about is in a different location entirely. So that's why. I don't have a second DVD or Bluray, (at least not one that isn't a 20 year old $50 Sony half of which is a VCR! - The old DVD/VCR combo). And I didn't want to drop 2 channels from the 6013 to go with a Zone 2.

So again the 6006 with a PM 8006..? I think the 70W model was would have been great but this is minimum $500 less.

And lastly the Onkyo doesn't have Amazon or Tidal streaming, and the CR612 being a 2019 model has everything. I'm kinda hoping to go with the highest AAC bitrate for both systems. Lastly, HEOS blows away the lame app the Onkyo has available.

But again, since I'm learning and trying to forget what I think I know and take in everything as a complete moon, I wouldn't be shocked if you told me that was all just goobly goo mumbo jumbo as well.

LOL sometimes you just have to expand on what you're after and why and what your gear available is....I almost brought up zones but I think the Onkyo would be better already at that. You don't have a smart phone or tablet or similar available? I'd think you can use wifi from a phone/tablet to the Onkyo easily enough for Amazon or Tidal etc. Not familiar with the ins/outs of HEOS. All you need is a modest bluray player to my way of looking at your situation rather than a $700 receiver with some network and disk playing capabilities (and bluray players usually come with features for networking/apps, too)....I think the Marantz CD6006 for $500 is too much for a cd-only player, and I think the same of the 2ch integrated amp PM8006 for $1200. Overall you want to keep the electronics expense to a minimum and if throwing money at anything, better speakers....

How does HEOS figure into this? Highest AAC bitrate is hard to get? What do you have feeding it AAC with?

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Use the money you're going to spend on cables and electronics and put it into a decent sub. That amp you're talking about getting seems like a step backward, imo. Passive bi amping won't net you any gains. I've switched back and forth with it a couple of times now and to me there is absolutely no difference in sound quality at all. I would not buy electronics just for the capability.

Cool... Got it. I'm caught up on the Bi amping now. Everyone seems to agree, the article on the link was pretty clear.

Just FYI I didn't get the new M-CR612 for the Bi amping, I was just curious because it had the option and I'd never done it. I got it primarily as a CD player with all the latest streaming options available for a location apart from my Home Theatre. So I can't see that as a regression since the Onkyo lacks those features.

Though I am starting to think I could have just got the $400 CD 6006 and hitched it to the Onkyo. But I'm learning.

Thanks again.

Oboe last thing. You've mentioned wires a few times. Are you talking RCA, HDMI, OR Speaker Wire.? Because I think I'm using pretty decent stuff now. Of course within my budget... Same as the sub. I don't need to wake the neighbors, I just want the proper tight thump, and to be able to crossover at about 65-80hz. When I play Limelight or Tom Sawyer, or Psycho Killer, Take me to the River... I just cube want the Bookshelves even trying.

 

[lovinthehd]

Here's a great site for things wire, particularly speaker wire but other connector subjects are covered as well http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm. Not a lot to it if you choose the right one for the job at hand. I didn't see you particularly mention cables, tho many do get caught up in much of the nonsense in audio about them....

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

LOL sometimes you just have to expand on what you're after and why and what your gear available is....I almost brought up zones but I think the Onkyo would be better already at that. You don't have a smart phone or tablet or similar available? I'd think you can use wifi from a phone/tablet to the Onkyo easily enough for Amazon or Tidal etc. Not familiar with the ins/outs of HEOS. All you need is a modest bluray player to my way of looking at your situation rather than a $700 receiver with some network and disk playing capabilities (and bluray players usually come with features for networking/apps, too)....I think the Marantz CD6006 for $500 is too much for a cd-only player, and I think the same of the 2ch integrated amp PM8006 for $1200. Overall you want to keep the electronics expense to a minimum and if throwing money at anything, better speakers....

How does HEOS figure into this? Highest AAC bitrate is hard to get? What do you have feeding it AAC with?

Well again I might be way off on all this but.... Yes, I can and have used my S8+ and my tablet to Bluetooth to the Onkyo, but for some reason the volume is significantly lower doing this. I do not pretend to know why. It just is. Same goes with the 6013.

That's where the HEOS comes in. When I connect thru the HEOS instead of regular Bluetooth it sounds right. It's louder and clearer. Someone else will have to say why. I just know that it is.

As far as the AAC quality goes, (repeat disclaimer about my possibly being a moron) but my subscription options for Pandora max out at 128 or sometimes 196. Kbps

Amazon plays everything at 256 kbps
And Tidal is always at 320 kbps.

So I'm thinking the closest I get to WMV, or a highest lossy value is better, cleaner, fuller and less compressed. = Better.

So I cut the lawn with Pandora and ear phones.

I play the 6013 exclusively via physical CD or the higher kbps of Amazon or preferably Tidal for now. Eventually as I can afford it I'd go with the highest available streaming service I can afford. Which was again why the Onkyo was lacking. It has Pandora and a few others but since it's 5 it 6 years old it's behind on all these options. The M-CR612 is a 2019 model fully updated.

And that + the Physical disc player were the main reasons.

And just to be clear I get and fully appreciate your point about the DVD/Bluray player doing the same. But it just so happens I need to upgrade that (and my TV still) in my Home Theatre and I promised my son could have my current Samsung. So going that route I'd end up buying 2 bluray. One for this and another new 4k for the Home Theatre.

BTW, it's getting late and I'm getting tired so forgive me if I'm missing out on some spellchecking. LOL...

 

[IansDad88(Don)]

Here's a great site for things wire, particularly speaker wire but other connector subjects are covered as well http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm. Not a lot to it if you choose the right one for the job at hand. I didn't see you particularly mention cables, tho many do get caught up in much of the nonsense in audio about them....

Thank s, I'll read that. Tomorrow I think as I'm already starting to lose the battle with my spellchecker.

I do have everything run with 12 or 14ga speaker wire. Though I'm not sure I have any other specific info off the top of my head at the moment. It's good solid wire and RCA ARE shielded. HDCP 2.2 on my HDMI going from Bluray to AVR.

I'll know more after reading the link.

 

[lovinthehd]

The level thing might be setup related, possibly even in the phone. Many receivers have a way of bringing levels up for particular inputs, too (so as to match other inputs, think Onkyo calls theirs IntelliVolume). I doubt much gear these days would have a problem with any of the lossy codecs like AAC/MP3/WMA/OGG etc or even the lossless ones like FLAC or WAV etc. Maybe limits on the hi-res bit depths/sampling frequencies. I'd have to look at the Onkyo's wifi capabilities, I assumed it was just dlna over wifi where you don't need anything in the receiver particularly as long as audio can be sent to it. You're using the free streaming music service levels only? I send audio to my bluray players easily enough from a phone as long as they are wifi capable (I have several systems going).

12 or 14g speaker wire does it in most cases. Proper bandwidth HDMI cables are designated by speed, not HDMI or HDCP version. See this https://www.hdmi.org/consumer/finding_right_cable.aspx. RCA cables are easily had from a variety of sources, Monoprice or Mediabridge are what I usually get. I usually buy bulk speaker wire from Monoprice as well, same for optical cables or coax etc.

 

[KEW]

Appreciate the response. If I'm reading you correctly you're saying like everyone else, just let the Onkyo 70W keep doing its thing, OR possibly put the Onkyo on the Woofers and the 50 Watts from the M-CR612 on the tweeters and then balance them out..?

I apologize if I misunderstood. I'm really trying to learn, and understand all my options.

Sounds like the general consensus is to "pre" the CD/Streamer thru the Onkyo to the speakers, bypassing the lower amp power in the M-CR612, and just keep it simple. I'm fine with that, like I said, I'm trying to learn.

Yeah, just use the Onkyo for power.