Home Cinema Audio - 5.1.2

[GHowe1995]

I haven't really reviewed too many articles on Audioholics yet. I've taken a look at quite a few on Google and tried to look into Dolby Atmos through their site. But, not here per se. What you're saying about the sub range makes sense. I can't really judge until i have a decent frequency range. I'll give that a crack before proceeding with the speakers. If i am satisfied with the range and sound how should i select additional speakers for the setup? I don't think the manufacturer makes that model anymore as they are from 2007-2008.

 

[lovinthehd]

I haven't really reviewed too many articles on Audioholics yet. I've taken a look at quite a few on Google and tried to look into Dolby Atmos through their site. But, not here per se. What you're saying about the sub range makes sense. I can't really judge until i have a decent frequency range. I'll give that a crack before proceeding with the speakers. If i am satisfied with the range and sound how should i select additional speakers for the setup? I don't think the manufacturer makes that model anymore as they are from 2007-2008.

The main speakers for such a setup are the L/R/C, surrounds aren't nearly as critical (altho I think can be very nice for multich music, but for movies/tv, not much of a concern).

So you haven't even heard the current speakers?

 

[GHowe1995]

The main speakers for such a setup are the L/R/C, surrounds aren't nearly as critical (altho I think can be very nice for multich music, but for movies/tv, not much of a concern).

So you haven't even heard the current speakers?

I have. I borrowed a friend's AVR(it is a low end one) and linked it to the bluray player (Panasonic DP-UB9000) and watched a few series on Prime Video. It didn't sound bad. I've also tested them by using Bluetooth on the AVR and playing music.

If i am to utilize atmos then i would need surrounds though? I already have the two in the ceiling at the back. And the L/R/C at the front. Just need to add the surrounds and two additional ones in the ceiling(the positioning on the back ones is way off.. need to compensate).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I have. I borrowed a friend's AVR(it is a low end one) and linked it to the bluray player (Panasonic DP-UB9000) and watched a few series on Prime Video. It didn't sound bad. I've also tested them by using Bluetooth on the AVR and playing music.

If i am to utilize atmos then i would need surrounds though? I already have the two in the ceiling at the back. And the L/R/C at the front. Just need to add the surrounds and two additional ones in the ceiling(the positioning on the back ones is way off.. need to compensate).

Yes. To utilize atmos, you’ll need surrounds, and some version of front height/top speakers.(what are the dims of this room?) IMO the ceiling speakers that are in place, are too far apart but might work well enough. After time, you can probably decide whether it’s worth moving them. I also think it might be would be worth using the LCR for awhile. My guess is they’re contractor specials, but they are at least installed. Speaker tech has been mature for a long time so I wouldn’t worry about their age, but they probably aren’t awesome if they’re “builder specials” which are OK, but definitely not focals which imo, you should eventually upgrade to. (Or ditch the IW LCR in the future which will be better too).
So imo, the couch should move forward off the wall, and then it would be worth doing x.x.4. Otherwise, ditch the rear tops, and go 5.x.2.
It would look more like this

Also, again room sims will help decide subwoofage but I would go with something ported, and also a pair. Do you you have a budget? Maybe I missed. Anyway, a pair of PB/PC2000’s would be much better than an SB4000. Especially below30-35hz where movies have a lot of content.

Also, here’s an image of XO slopes to help visualize.

And some reading...(can’t remember if I added this or not)
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

 

[PENG]

I did some more research on this last night. Albeit it did take me some time to understand the specs. The Yamaha RX-A3080 9.2Ch Receiver looks as if it would handle the dips nicely. The Dynamic power rating says it can push somewhere between 295w and 410w for 2.9ohms for short periods of time. Also for normal usage it's pushing 230w - 4ohms on each channel which i think should cover things nicely. What are your thoughts on that model? Seating distance is about 5m away from the screen.

I think that model is one of Yamaha's best ever AVR in terms of features and specifications at that price point. Having said that, like @lovinthehd, who is a very experienced audiohoic obviously, I also prefer Denon because of their better feature set/$, i.e. better value. Yamaha's are often recommended because our resident insider/expert M Code told us Yamaha's AVRs have the best reliability track record. That is an important point to consider if you are going for an expensive flag ship or near flagship model and intend to keep it for longer than 5-6 years.

If you have no intention to go further than 9 channels of surround sound such as 5.1.4 or 7.1.2, then the RX-A2080 is a better choice because of the lower price. Interestingly, for whatever reasons, the RX-A20X0 models seemed to yield equal or a little more output power on the test benches of AV magazines. The internal amp sections are more than likely identical. The 2080 just has two fewer preamp channels and can process up to 9 discrete channels.

If reliability record means not too much to you, check out the Denon AVR-X4500H and Marantz SR7013. About a month ago, the SR7013 dropped to C$1249, that is US$950 at Bestbuy and Amazon.ca, so don't pay bargain hard and don't pay more than that.

By the way, the spl calculator gives you the theoretical number as you already said it yourself. The fact is, there is no way those little Focal speakers can produce any more than 115 dB at 1 meter, let alone 5 meters, without sounding horrible or blowing up in smoke. So anything like the AVR-X4500H or RX-A2080 should be more than powerful enough to drive your speakers without worry about that 2.9 ohm dip.

 

[GHowe1995]

Yes. To utilize atmos, you’ll need surrounds, and some version of front height/top speakers.(what are the dims of this room?) IMO the ceiling speakers that are in place, are too far apart but might work well enough. After time, you can probably decide whether it’s worth moving them. I also think it might be would be worth using the LCR for awhile. My guess is they’re contractor specials, but they are at least installed. Speaker tech has been mature for a long time so I wouldn’t worry about their age, but they probably aren’t awesome if they’re “builder specials” which are OK, but definitely not focals which imo, you should eventually upgrade to. (Or ditch the IW LCR in the future which will be better too).
So imo, the couch should move forward off the wall, and then it would be worth doing x.x.4. Otherwise, ditch the rear tops, and go 5.x.2.
It would look more like this

Also, again room sims will help decide subwoofage but I would go with something ported, and also a pair. Do you you have a budget? Maybe I missed. Anyway, a pair of PB/PC2000’s would be much better than an SB4000. Especially below30-35hz where movies have a lot of content.

Also, here’s an image of XO slopes to help visualize.

And some reading...(can’t remember if I added this or not)
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

Yes. To utilize atmos, you’ll need surrounds, and some version of front height/top speakers.(what are the dims of this room?) IMO the ceiling speakers that are in place, are too far apart but might work well enough. After time, you can probably decide whether it’s worth moving them. I also think it might be would be worth using the LCR for awhile. My guess is they’re contractor specials, but they are at least installed. Speaker tech has been mature for a long time so I wouldn’t worry about their age, but they probably aren’t awesome if they’re “builder specials” which are OK, but definitely not focals which imo, you should eventually upgrade to. (Or ditch the IW LCR in the future which will be better too).
So imo, the couch should move forward off the wall, and then it would be worth doing x.x.4. Otherwise, ditch the rear tops, and go 5.x.2.
It would look more like this

Also, again room sims will help decide subwoofage but I would go with something ported, and also a pair. Do you you have a budget? Maybe I missed. Anyway, a pair of PB/PC2000’s would be much better than an SB4000. Especially below30-35hz where movies have a lot of content.

Also, here’s an image of XO slopes to help visualize.

And some reading...(can’t remember if I added this or not)
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

The dimensions are L: 5.77m, W:4.81m, H(Floor to ceiling):2.5m H(Floor to Dropped Bulkhead): 2m.

Looking at the atmos diagrams the speakers being about 4.6m apart do seem to be way off. I think they originally intended for them to be the surrounds. I can take them out fairly easily and then just patch and paint over the holes. Might as well get it done now.

I could start by doing 5.2.2. Then either go to 7.2.2 or 5.2.4 which ever would be more beneficial in the room. For now i could keep the current LRC speakers and then upgrade after everything is in place if needed. Another option is to rip out the surrounds that are in place and utilize them as side speakers for now and just opt straight for 7.2.2. Thoughts?

The surround speakers seem to be on an angle in the atmos diagrams toward the couch. Replicating that with IW speakers might be kind of hard. So, maybe i could mount bookcase speakers or do two tower speakers?

As for the subwoofers. The budget for subs is around $3500 to $4000 AUD.

 

[GHowe1995]

I think that model is one of Yamaha's best ever AVR in terms of features and specifications at that price point. Having said that, like @lovinthehd, who is a very experienced audiohoic obviously, I also prefer Denon because of their better feature set/$, i.e. better value. Yamaha's are often recommended because our resident insider/expert M Code told us Yamaha's AVRs have the best reliability track record. That is an important point to consider if you are going for an expensive flag ship or near flagship model and intend to keep it for longer than 5-6 years.

If you have no intention to go further than 9 channels of surround sound such as 5.1.4 or 7.1.2, then the RX-A2080 is a better choice because of the lower price. Interestingly, for whatever reasons, the RX-A20X0 models seemed to yield equal or a little more output power on the test benches of AV magazines. The internal amp sections are more than likely identical. The 2080 just has two fewer preamp channels and can process up to 9 discrete channels.

If reliability record means not too much to you, check out the Denon AVR-X4500H and Marantz SR7013. About a month ago, the SR7013 dropped to C$1249, that is US$950 at Bestbuy and Amazon.ca, so don't pay bargain hard and don't pay more than that.

By the way, the spl calculator gives you the theoretical number as you already said it yourself. The fact is, there is no way those little Focal speakers can produce any more than 115 dB at 1 meter, let alone 5 meters, without sounding horrible or blowing up in smoke. So anything like the AVR-X4500H or RX-A2080 should be more than powerful enough to drive your speakers without worry about that 2.9 ohm dip.

You're not wrong. It's a tad easier to afford over their CX-A5200 and MX-A5200 combo. Well i've had a look at Denon and Onkyo. I had a look at Denon's X6500h and X8500h models and Onkyo's TX-RZ1100. The main reason i opted for RX3080 is because:
- The rated power output and dynamic power rating look to be able to easily handle those Focals
- I don't plan on going over 9.2ch
- Reliability. Used their music equipment before back in highschool and we never had a problem with it. Not once.

I'll take a look at the RX2080 too then. Surprisingly it's not that much cheaper than the 3080. About $400 AUD.

 

[lovinthehd]

You're not wrong. It's a tad easier to afford over their CX-A5200 and MX-A5200 combo. Well i've had a look at Denon and Onkyo. I had a look at Denon's X6500h and X8500h models and Onkyo's TX-RZ1100. The main reason i opted for RX3080 is because:
- The rated power output and dynamic power rating look to be able to easily handle those Focals
- I don't plan on going over 9.2ch
- Reliability. Used their music equipment before back in highschool and we never had a problem with it. Not once.

I'll take a look at the RX2080 too then. Surprisingly it's not that much cheaper than the 3080. About $400 AUD.

I'd think the Denon 8500 would even be more capable amp-wise....

 

[GHowe1995]

I'd think the Denon 8500 would even be more capable amp-wise....

Unfortunately, It's also about $3000 more expensive over here. Does look like a very nice AVR. From memory it won the EISA award for best AVR over $5000. Certainly would 'kill the pig' in terms of doing the job.

 

[lovinthehd]

Unfortunately, It's also about $3000 more expensive over here. Does look like a very nice AVR. From memory it won the EISA award for best AVR over $5000. Certainly would 'kill the pig' in terms of doing the job.

That's why I usually wait a while before buying a flagship avr, at USD 4000 list....more than I'm willing to pay. I'll wait til it gets to $2k while some other new "feature" is added to the 9500 or whatever My $2.6k list price avr I paid $1k for, but wasn't needing the latest/greatest feature either. What does the 3080 go for? (just looked at a BestBuy ad here, it was USD 2k).

 

[GHowe1995]

That makes sense. It's the same logic i applied when choosing the projector. BenQ utilised a new type of lighting for their latest CinePro projector. Philips HLD. Meant to be very good. But, overpriced for now.

The best price i can get for the 3080 is $3195 AUD atm. However, the data cable guy i used to wire the home cinema said he might be able to get some of the parts cheaper for me since he deals with one of the retailers over here. So, maybe $3000 AUD if i'm lucky.

The best price i could get for the X8500H is $6000.

Like, they advertise the X8500H as being future proof because it is just that good. But, is it really worth the extra $3000 at this stage?

 

[lovinthehd]

That makes sense. It's the same logic i applied when choosing the projector. BenQ utilised a new type of lighting for their latest CinePro projector. Philips HLD. Meant to be very good. But, overpriced for now.

The best price i can get for the 3080 is $3195 AUD atm. However, the data cable guy i used to wire the home cinema said he might be able to get some of the parts cheaper for me since he deals with one of the retailers over here. So, maybe $3000 AUD if i'm lucky.

The best price i could get for the X8500H is $6000.

Like, they advertise the X8500H as being future proof because it is just that good. But, is it really worth the extra $3000 at this stage?

Nothing is future proof I think with avrs....they keep coming up with features to churn. I'm still happy with 1080p and no Atmos, tho. I know things are more expensive down your way but half price for the 3080 over the 8500 is a no-brainer They're not that different. I'd still not get hung up on the Focals...or any speaker that has difficult amplification requirements for that matter....but that's me.

 

[GHowe1995]

The current projector i have only does 720P. They installed it back in 2007-2008 i think. Had to have component cables replaced to HDMI. Tbh i probably wouldn't have bothered upgrading it so soon if it had been 1080P...The funny thing is that the realtor advertised it as being Full HD.

My thoughts too. I could do a lot of other things with that $3000. i.e. a new couch for the room. I haven't locked the Focals in for the speakers just yet either. I am happy to use what is already there if it does the job. I know that Focal is a reputable international brand when it comes to speaker tech. So, that was my first instinct. One of my mates uses a lot of their tech for his car audio system. He recommended them. I've also had a look at BOSE and B&W for IW and IC speakers. I have a mate who works in sound for our local entertainment center. He says that BOSE are renowned for terrible quality in his game. So, i kinda just sidelined them. But, I haven't ruled out B&W yet. The main issue is that i'd like the speakers to be IW ones so i don't have to alter the room too much. If you know of any other good brands that do IW and IC ones i'm happy to take recommendations.

 

[lovinthehd]

The current projector i have only does 720P. They installed it back in 2007-2008 i think. Had to have component cables replaced to HDMI. Tbh i probably wouldn't have bothered upgrading it so soon if it had been 1080P...The funny thing is that the realtor advertised it as being Full HD.

My thoughts too. I could do a lot of other things with that $3000. i.e. a new couch for the room. I haven't locked the Focals in for the speakers just yet either. I am happy to use what is already there if it does the job. I know that Focal is a reputable international brand when it comes to speaker tech. So, that was my first instinct. One of my mates uses a lot of their tech for his car audio system. He recommended them. I've also had a look at BOSE and B&W for IW and IC speakers. I have a mate who works in sound for our local entertainment center. He says that BOSE are renowned for terrible quality in his game. So, i kinda just sidelined them. But, I haven't ruled out B&W yet. The main issue is that i'd like the speakers to be IW ones so i don't have to alter the room too much. If you know of any other good brands that do IW and IC ones i'm happy to take recommendations.

Sorry, can't help you with IW or IC speaker selection, never wanted 'em....and not sure what other choices you have either.

 

[PENG]

That makes sense. It's the same logic i applied when choosing the projector. BenQ utilised a new type of lighting for their latest CinePro projector. Philips HLD. Meant to be very good. But, overpriced for now.

The best price i can get for the 3080 is $3195 AUD atm. However, the data cable guy i used to wire the home cinema said he might be able to get some of the parts cheaper for me since he deals with one of the retailers over here. So, maybe $3000 AUD if i'm lucky.

The best price i could get for the X8500H is $6000.

Like, they advertise the X8500H as being future proof because it is just that good. But, is it really worth the extra $3000 at this stage?

Okay, now that we know you are in Australia, I would suggest you do the following:

Do a price comparison based the best price you can get in Australia, brand new with full manufacturer warranty, and the price you can get the same from Amazon.com (yes, American prices) on the following products:

- RX-A2070, RX-A2080 (no point paying any extra for the 3080 if you are sure you only need 9 channels)
- Denon AVR-X4500H
- Denon AVR-X6500H
- NAD T777 V3
- Marantz SR-7013
- Marantz SR-6013
- Denon AVR-X3600H

I know you are not going to buy from Amazon.com, but I recommend you use it for comparison because their pricing should reflect more adequate "values vs prices" due to the much larger consumer market.

For example, if the RX-A2080 in Australia is AUD $2,699, and the Denon AVR-X4500H is $3299 whereas their prices on Amazon.com are: RX-A2080 - $1,599, Denon AVR-X4500H - $1,399

Then your choice should be very obvious. If you were in North America, you would be able to get better performance/price ratio on the Denon/Marantz/Onkyo models for sure. In Australia, my impression is that you can do much better with Yamaha's.

 

[GHowe1995]

Okay, now that we know you are in Australia, I would suggest you do the following:

Do a price comparison based the best price you can get in Australia, brand new with full manufacturer warranty, and the price you can get the same from Amazon.com (yes, American prices) on the following products:

- RX-A2070, RX-A2080 (no point paying any extra for the 3080 if you are sure you only need 9 channels)
- Denon AVR-X4500H
- Denon AVR-X6500H
- NAD T777 V3
- Marantz SR-7013
- Marantz SR-6013
- Denon AVR-X3600H

I know you are not going to buy from Amazon.com, but I recommend you use it for comparison because their pricing should reflect more adequate "values vs prices" due to the much larger consumer market.

For example, if the RX-A2080 in Australia is AUD $2,699, and the Denon AVR-X4500H is $3299 whereas their prices on Amazon.com are: RX-A2080 - $1,599, Denon AVR-X4500H - $1,399

Then your choice should be very obvious. If you were in North America, you would be able to get better performance/price ratio on the Denon/Marantz/Onkyo models for sure. In Australia, my impression is that you can do much better with Yamaha's.

Okay, that makes sense. I’ll have a look. However, say I did want 11.2ch would the 3080 therefore be the best choice in terms of best value as it has the option to add an additional power amp using the pre outs?

Yeah Australia can have its limitations

 

[PENG]

Okay, that makes sense. I’ll have a look. However, say I did want 11.2ch would the 3080 therefore be the best choice in terms of best value as it has the option to add an additional power amp using the pre outs?

Yeah Australia can have its limitations

Yes, unless you can find a better deal for the RX-A3070 brand new in a factory sealed box with full warranty. There isn't much difference between the 3070 and 3080.

It is just too bad that in Australia you guys have to pay premium for Denon and Marantz.

The AVR-X3600H and the SR6013 can do 7.1.4 (11 channels Atmos) and is going for $899 on Amazon. That's just AUD 1,310!! According to Google, those things are selling for AUD 2,250 to AUD 2,300 in Australia.

So for AUD 3,199, versus the comparable Denon AVR-X6500H's AUD 5,199, it does look like Australians get much better deals on Yamaha's.

 

[GHowe1995]

Yes, unless you can find a better deal for the RX-A3070 brand new in a factory sealed box with full warranty. There isn't much difference between the 3070 and 3080.

It is just too bad that in Australia you guys have to pay premium for Denon and Marantz.

The AVR-X3600H and the SR6013 can do 7.1.4 (11 channels Atmos) and is going for $899 on Amazon. That's just AUD 1,310!! According to Google, those things are selling for AUD 2,250 to AUD 2,300 in Australia.

So for AUD 3,199, versus the comparable Denon AVR-X6500H's AUD 5,199, it does look like Australians get much better deals on Yamaha's.

It's a sad sad life sometimes. In the future if transportation and freight becomes cheaper it might cost the same. Could also be due to import duties.

I do like the option of adding another two channels to complete a full 7.2.4 setup. What power amp would you go for assuming you went with the Yamaha? Would you stick with the Yamaha brand and go for something like the PX3?

In addition, do you know much about mixing and matching speakers? i.e since i currently have 5 IW speakers i plan to utilise them for the L/C/R and side L & R. But, for the IC speakers and surround speakers is there anything i need to watch out for? I've read a few articles and they tend to say that as long as your L/C/R are the same brand within the same series then you should be find with doing whatever with the other speakers. I'd consider getting something like the Yamaha NS-F700 for floor-standing surround speakers and Focal ICW8's for in-ceiling. Thoughts?

 

[PENG]

It's a sad sad life sometimes. In the future if transportation and freight becomes cheaper it might cost the same. Could also be due to import duties.

I do like the option of adding another two channels to complete a full 7.2.4 setup. What power amp would you go for assuming you went with the Yamaha? Would you stick with the Yamaha brand and go for something like the PX3?

In addition, do you know much about mixing and matching speakers? i.e since i currently have 5 IW speakers i plan to utilise them for the L/C/R and side L & R. But, for the IC speakers and surround speakers is there anything i need to watch out for? I've read a few articles and they tend to say that as long as your L/C/R are the same brand within the same series then you should be find with doing whatever with the other speakers. I'd consider getting something like the Yamaha NS-F700 for floor-standing surround speakers and Focal ICW8's for in-ceiling. Thoughts?

Australia is closer to Vietnam, Malaysia, and Japan, wonder why transportation cost would be higher. I guess it has something to do with marketing and the local audio myth/hearsay, for example, in the US/CA, a lot of people thought Marantz is higher end than Denon, and has a "warmer" sound, so they can sell them a little more than the equivalent Denon. That doesn't seem to be the case in Japan, probably not in Australia as well? Just a thought, no idea if that's true or not.

@M Code, could you shed some light on why Denon/Marantz AVRs are listed so much higher than comparable Yamaha RX-A models in Australia (I bet in NZ too, but not HK so it's not an Asia thing..), that seems completely opposite to what we have here in the US and Canada?? Thank you in advance.