Home Cinema Audio - 5.1.2

[GHowe1995]

Hi Guys,

I'm fairly new to the home cinema side of things. But, I'm trying to get a Dolby Atmos enabled 5.1.2 setup going with the expectation that i'll upgrade the number of speakers and potentially subwoofers later. I currently have a 5.1 home cinema with inbuilt speakers in the wall and ceiling. But, the tech is from around 2007-2008. So, fairly dated. Which is why i'm looking to upgrade. I'm still trying to select exactly what i should get. The room is approximately 5m x 5m. This is what i've chosen so far:

Projector - BenQ 5700

Bluray player/recorder - Panasonic DP-UB9000.

In-Wall Speakers - Focal 300 iwlcr6 (x5)

In-Ceiling Speakers - Focal 300 ICW 8 (x2)

SubWoofer - SVS SB-4000 (x1)

Receiver - This is where i am unsure. I have looked at quite a lot of receivers and am just stumped.

Can anyone recommend a receiver that would be perfect for that setup?

Cheers,
Gareth

 

[Leemix]

What in wall speakers do you have already?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[GHowe1995]

The old ones are all TruAudio HT-55A ones.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hi Guys,

I'm fairly new to the home cinema side of things. But, I'm trying to get a Dolby Atmos enabled 5.1.2 setup going with the expectation that i'll upgrade the number of speakers and potentially subwoofers later. I currently have a 5.1 home cinema with inbuilt speakers in the wall and ceiling. But, the tech is from around 2007-2008. So, fairly dated. Which is why i'm looking to upgrade. I'm still trying to select exactly what i should get. The room is approximately 5m x 5m. This is what i've chosen so far:

Projector - BenQ 5700

Bluray player/recorder - Panasonic DP-UB9000.

In-Wall Speakers - Focal 300 iwlcr6 (x5)

In-Ceiling Speakers - Focal 300 ICW 8 (x2)

SubWoofer - SVS SB-4000 (x1)

Receiver - This is where i am unsure. I have looked at quite a lot of receivers and am just stumped.

Can anyone recommend a receiver that would be perfect for that setup?

Cheers,
Gareth

Couple things. What are the current speakers and layout of the ceiling speakers? Focal is a good choice but the ones in place might be pretty good too.
Do you have much experience with receivers? One big thing is being able to navigate and understand the menus, and also the remote control. Many receivers will accomplish the goal, so I big factor is ease of use. In my house I have AVR’s by pioneer, Marantz, Yamaha and Onkyo. They all sound good in their own ways, and all do room EQ differently.
My main system uses the Marantz and I’ve really come to enjoy using it.(7.3.4)
Ime audyssey is better than mcacc and ypao. Ymmv.

 

[GHowe1995]

Couple things. What are the current speakers and layout of the ceiling speakers? Focal is a good choice but the ones in place might be pretty good too.
Do you have much experience with receivers? One big thing is being able to navigate and understand the menus, and also the remote control. Many receivers will accomplish the goal, so I big factor is ease of use. In my house I have AVR’s by pioneer, Marantz, Yamaha and Onkyo. They all sound good in their own ways, and all do room EQ differently.
My main system uses the Marantz and I’ve really come to enjoy using it.(7.3.4)
Ime audyssey is better than mcacc and ypao. Ymmv.

 

[GHowe1995]

The current ones are all TruAudio HT-55A speakers. It’s not so much the navigation for me. It’s more the compatibility. The minimum impedance on the Focal 300 IWLCR6’s is 2.9ohms. Yet no receiver goes down that far. If need be I’ll replace the CR6’s with their ICW 8’s. The reason I like the CR6’s is because the frequency range goes lower than most. I’ve also attached pictures of the room with a rough birds eye view sketch. Thoughts?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The current ones are all TruAudio HT-55A speakers. It’s not so much the navigation for me. It’s more the compatibility. The minimum impedance on the Focal 300 IWLCR6’s is 2.9ohms. Yet no receiver goes down that far. If need be I’ll replace the CR6’s with their ICW 8’s. The reason I like the CR6’s is because the frequency range goes lower than most. I’ve also attached pictures of the room with a rough birds eye view sketch. Thoughts?

Ok. Well, as far as the minimum impedance is concerned, that will only be at certain frequencies, and likely nothing to be tooooo concerned with. @PENG will be good to answer that better.
For speaker placement I was hoping the rack will make way for the center channel as obviously you don’t want gear in front of it. Lol Bigger thing is the back of the room. You can’t have IC surrounds and still have Atmos. If that were my room, I would use the current surrounds as top rears(although they’re kind of far apart), and install top fronts to match. Then find some book shelf speakers or IW speakers for surround duty.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf
Here’s a little reading. It’s actually quite interesting.

 

[PENG]

The current ones are all TruAudio HT-55A speakers. It’s not so much the navigation for me. It’s more the compatibility. The minimum impedance on the Focal 300 IWLCR6’s is 2.9ohms. Yet no receiver goes down that far. If need be I’ll replace the CR6’s with their ICW 8’s. The reason I like the CR6’s is because the frequency range goes lower than most. I’ve also attached pictures of the room with a rough birds eye view sketch. Thoughts?

The 300IWLCR6 is rated 92 dB/2.83V/1m, 8 ohms nominal, 2.9 ohm minimum and recommended amp power 50-150 W. That tells me the 2.9 ohm dip won't cover too wide a range, otherwise the nominal impedance would have been rated lower such as 6 or 4 ohms.

For AVR output power requirement, it depends on your seating distance. To be on the conservative side, something like the current Denon/Marantz/Yamaha 4000/7000/2000 series or their higher models should be all you need.

 

[GHowe1995]

Ok. Well, as far as the minimum impedance is concerned, that will only be at certain frequencies, and likely nothing to be tooooo concerned with. @PENG will be good to answer that better.
For speaker placement I was hoping the rack will make way for the center channel as obviously you don’t want gear in front of it. Lol Bigger thing is the back of the room. You can’t have IC surrounds and still have Atmos. If that were my room, I would use the current surrounds as top rears(although they’re kind of far apart), and install top fronts to match. Then find some book shelf speakers or IW speakers for surround duty.

Ah bugga. Good point. I wish i had been the first owner of the house so i could've ensured they didn't install them that way. I don't think it will be possible to install the focal IW speakers at the back as the wall cavity is only 9cm and from memory the focal 300 iwlcr6's require 9.8cm. Is there any mounting accessory that will allow me to have them sticking out the wall by 1cm? If not, i could always mount two bookshelf speakers on the wall or find different speakers for the surround(any suggestions?). Any recommendations in terms of the model for the bookshelf speakers? As for the two speakers being far apart for IC speakers. I don't mind doing a 5.1.4 setup. However, unless i actually took the speakers out of the ceiling, patched and painted it and moved them where they should be for IC speakers it wouldn't be the perfect angle for atmos. Will the angle matter? Or would it be okay if it was inline with the sketch i've just attached?

 

[GHowe1995]

Here is the sketch:

 

[GHowe1995]

The 300IWLCR6 is rated 92 dB/2.83V/1m, 8 ohms nominal, 2.9 ohm minimum and recommended amp power 50-150 W. That tells me the 2.9 ohm dip won't cover too wide a range, otherwise the nominal impedance would have been rated lower such as 6 or 4 ohms.

For AVR output power requirement, it depends on your seating distance. To be on the conservative side, something like the current Denon/Marantz/Yamaha 4000/7000/2000 series or their higher models should be all you need.

I did some more research on this last night. Albeit it did take me some time to understand the specs. The Yamaha RX-A3080 9.2Ch Receiver looks as if it would handle the dips nicely. The Dynamic power rating says it can push somewhere between 295w and 410w for 2.9ohms for short periods of time. Also for normal usage it's pushing 230w - 4ohms on each channel which i think should cover things nicely. What are your thoughts on that model? Seating distance is about 5m away from the screen.

 

[lovinthehd]

Why do you think you need to change speakers rather than get some subwoofage going? You haven't mentioned a built in sub, is there one or not? What is it?

 

[GHowe1995]

Why do you think you need to change speakers rather than get some subwoofage going? You haven't mentioned a built in sub, is there one or not? What is it?

Well, i'm doing a complete overhaul of the cinema room. I didn't have any say on the old setup. I only just bought this house... The new setup will require additional speakers. So, might as well get them all to the same level. And yes, there will be a sub - SVS SB-4000. But, this is not an IW sub. It will sit on the floor.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, i'm doing a complete overhaul of the cinema room. I didn't have any say on the old setup. I only just bought this house... The new setup will require additional speakers. So, might as well get them all to the same level. And yes, there will be a sub - SVS SB-4000. But, this is not an IW sub. It will sit on the floor.

I'd personally get the sub first before replacing the inwalls, altho have no clue as to either the one's your proposing vs the ones you already have....it could be a good move. Adding a sub is necessary to say you have 5.1 currently, is that right? The in-walls don't need to dig very deep if you have good subs (and reasonable sats).

 

[GHowe1995]

I'd personally get the sub first before replacing the inwalls, altho have no clue as to either the one's your proposing vs the ones you already have....it could be a good move. Adding a sub is necessary to say you have 5.1 currently, is that right? The in-walls don't need to dig very deep if you have good subs (and reasonable sats).

Yeah, i will get the sub first in terms of the project. Technically i only have 3.0.2 atm. The surround speakers are in the ceiling... What do you mean by 'reasonable sats'?

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, i will get the sub first in terms of the project. Technically i only have 3.0.2 atm. The surround speakers are in the ceiling... What do you mean by 'reasonable sats'?

Sats that have a frequency response that work well with the sub(s) and are of reasonable capability for your intended use. How loud will you be listening? How far is the seating from the speakers? That sort of thing....you might play with this spl calculator to get an idea of the power needed for given speakers (aside from dynamic power spec) http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[GHowe1995]

Sats that have a frequency response that work well with the sub(s) and are of reasonable capability for your intended use. How loud will you be listening? How far is the seating from the speakers? That sort of thing....you might play with this spl calculator to get an idea of the power needed for given speakers (aside from dynamic power spec) http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Okay, i had a look at that calculator. I tested the front left right and center speaker position to the couch at the back of the room - 16.4 feet. The db SPL is 110 for the Focal 300 IWLCR6 model matched with the Yamaha RX-A3080 which has a rated power output of 230W at 4ohms. The surround ones measure at 115.8 - 121.8 db SPL for a distance of 3.2 - 6.4 feet. But, these are maximum theoretical values for if i were to turn it up that loud which i honestly wouldn't because i value my hearing. Could be useful if i ever have an annoying neighbour though

How does this all tie in with the sub(s) exactly? So far i'm understanding that this tells you the max sound level for where you are seated in the room.

 

[lovinthehd]

Okay, i had a look at that calculator. I tested the front left right and center speaker position to the couch at the back of the room - 16.4 feet. The db SPL is 110 for the Focal 300 IWLCR6 model matched with the Yamaha RX-A3080 which has a rated power output of 230W at 4ohms. The surround ones measure at 115.8 - 121.8 db SPL for a distance of 3.2 - 6.4 feet. But, these are maximum theoretical values for if i were to turn it up that loud which i honestly wouldn't because i value my hearing. Could be useful if i ever have an annoying neighbour though

How does this all tie in with the sub(s) exactly? So far i'm understanding that this tells you the max sound level for where you are seated in the room.

More intended to give you an idea of the relationship of speaker sensitivity, amp power, distance from them as well as spl level goals. I don't see that the 3080 actually has a s manufacturer's rating at 4 ohm at all, but does have a 8 ohm rating at 1kHz and 10% THD (JEITA standard). 105 spl per channel is the usual movie reference peak level (85 average, allowance for 20dB peaks, and 115 dB for the LFE channel). Max wattage/volume doesn't mean it will sound good with a given speaker, tho. The sub will handle most of the work below a given crossover point, so your satellites (i.e. speakers not the sub, not full range speakers in and of themselves) have to do less. That's why I recommend trying your current speakers and add the sub first then determine if something is lacking for your use.

 

[GHowe1995]

I thought that we took the Rated Output Power for a single channel and utilized that for compatibility with the speaker? I am fairly new to this so there is a strong chance that i am wrong lol. I understand that between the frequency range of 20Hz - 20kHz that the speakers and sub tend to handle different levels. i.e. sub 20Hz-200Hz ideally and speakers 40Hz - 20kHz and that the crossover as such tends to be 40Hz - 200Hz. This is the rating for the current speakers:

TruAudio HT-55a:
Frequency Response : 45Hz - 20kHz
Running that SPL test result same distance of 16.4 ft = 108.4 dB SPL

So, what you're saying is that given that rating that those speakers are perfectly good to handle the majority of movies for where i am viewing them from?

So, now if we add the proposed subwoofer the SVS SB-4000. That has a frequency response of 19-310Hz +/- 3dB. Which means that if i added that sub to the system then it would solely handle everything from 19Hz - 45Hz. Then crossover after that to 310Hz where the speakers would solely handle everything after.

I see what you're saying in that i don't essentially need to upgrade those speakers because in reality a speaker is a speaker and if the SPL is all good at a certain distance then why buy more expensive speakers? Is that correct?

If that is correct, then now that i want to have a Dolby Atmos setup how should i proceed? Should i leave the current speakers in and just add some additional speakers on the surround and ceiling? Say the Focal 300 IW6's?

 

[lovinthehd]

I thought that we took the Rated Output Power for a single channel and utilized that for compatibility with the speaker? I am fairly new to this so there is a strong chance that i am wrong lol. I understand that between the frequency range of 20Hz - 20kHz that the speakers and sub tend to handle different levels. i.e. sub 20Hz-200Hz ideally and speakers 40Hz - 20kHz and that the crossover as such tends to be 40Hz - 200Hz. This is the rating for the current speakers:

TruAudio HT-55a:
Frequency Response : 45Hz - 20kHz
Running that SPL test result same distance of 16.4 ft = 108.4 dB SPL

So, what you're saying is that given that rating that those speakers are perfectly good to handle the majority of movies for where i am viewing them from?

So, now if we add the proposed subwoofer the SVS SB-4000. That has a frequency response of 19-310Hz +/- 3dB. Which means that if i added that sub to the system then it would solely handle everything from 19Hz - 45Hz. Then crossover after that to 310Hz where the speakers would solely handle everything after.

I see what you're saying in that i don't essentially need to upgrade those speakers because in reality a speaker is a speaker and if the SPL is all good at a certain distance then why buy more expensive speakers? Is that correct?

If that is correct, then now that i want to have a Dolby Atmos setup how should i proceed? Should i leave the current speakers in and just add some additional speakers on the surround and ceiling? Say the Focal 300 IW6's?

In a way, but the output power isn't a strict definition, nor is the speakers' ability to handle that power (not only mechanically but up to where it still sounds good). It seems your speakers may be capable of what you need them to do, altho you may simply not like the speakers' sound, that's always possible. That's why I say, try a sub with a decent avr with your current speakers and go from there. The 3080 is certainly a decent receiver, altho personally not a fan of Yamaha, I prefer Denon. Many upper end avrs have the ability to handle low impedance loads up to a point, but a sub can only help and I'd get that before further changes....those speakers on their own without a sub I'd certainly find unsatisfying as to frequency range.

A crossover isn't a brick wall, it's a crossing point of slopes (that of the high pass filter for your speakers and the low pass filter for your subs). 80 is generally considered a good starting point, for your speakers maybe even 100. Get the sub and experiment with crossover. Have you reviewed various articles available here on Audioholics regarding general setup of speakers and subs?