Bi-wire/bi-amp

[Sparkus]

Yes sir. Appreciate the clarification.

I do believe everyone who has said it does not. I also believe those who say passive bi-amping does nothing. I think all the info leads me to believe one of 2 things, terminations (which I do for a living...so I have doubts but will review) or something to do with wire quality/size. Until I find the cause of improvement, it's all I got.

I used a Southwire speaker cable from Lowe's but can find nothing on the Southwire site, including this cable, nor can I find any spec sheets to check the resistance. Although I'll cut a piece and put my meter on it.

I'll try a few wiring tests in the next few days with wire sizes and see what happens.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes sir. Appreciate the clarification.

I do believe everyone who has said it does not. I also believe those who say passive bi-amping does nothing. I think all the info leads me to believe one of 2 things, terminations (which I do for a living...so I have doubts but will review) or something to do with wire quality/size. Until I find the cause of improvement, it's all I got.

I used a Southwire speaker cable from Lowe's but can find nothing on the Southwire site, including this cable, nor can I find any spec sheets to check the resistance. Although I'll cut a piece and put my meter on it.

I'll try a few wiring tests in the next few days with wire sizes and see what happens.

A blind test is really the way to go. Don't underestimate the power of expectation bias. Seriously doubt it has to do with the wire in any case but good luck!

 

[Sparkus]

Appreciated @lovinthehd I get what you saying. Wish you could hear the difference, it's not the wishful thinking I've read about. Unfortunately, there is no way to do a blind test. My dogs don't know how to wire and they have no thumbs.
So it's just me, myself and I.

 

[lovinthehd]

Appreciated @lovinthehd I get what you saying. Wish you could hear the difference, it's not the wishful thinking I've read about. Unfortunately, there is no way to do a blind test. My dogs don't know how to wire and they have no thumbs.
So it's just me, myself and I.

Would be glad to come over and help you with one, but we're not likely all that close to one another....but if you're in Oregon....but ya never know someone might be close enough to help you out....

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yes sir. Appreciate the clarification.

I do believe everyone who has said it does not. I also believe those who say passive bi-amping does nothing. I think all the info leads me to believe one of 2 things, terminations (which I do for a living...so I have doubts but will review) or something to do with wire quality/size. Until I find the cause of improvement, it's all I got.

I used a Southwire speaker cable from Lowe's but can find nothing on the Southwire site, including this cable, nor can I find any spec sheets to check the resistance. Although I'll cut a piece and put my meter on it.

I'll try a few wiring tests in the next few days with wire sizes and see what happens.

Passive bi-amping does no harm, properly configured. I wouldn't sweat whether or not it really makes an improvement. I'd just leave it alone and be happy. Life is too short to screw around questioning your sanity for no beneficial outcome.

 

[Sparkus]

The interesting thing is that the increase was in volume and quality. The overall sound changed for the better. I'm sure something was not right before. I can't put the amp specs up on the TX-RZ820 if it'd help...I was sure I read in the manual that unused channels power would go to used channels, can't find it again yet of course, but I would expect that to be the case. So, doubtful I'm getting more power. Doesn't seem likely anyway..right?

 

[Sparkus]

Nah, I'm not. Don't have that much time and life is too short. It'll bug me till I figure out what made the change but I'm enjoying the better sound and I'm learning a lot thinking about it. Started watching Audioholic's You Tube videos so it's a good spring board for other things.
You folks are really great...always helpful.

 

[PENG]

The interesting thing is that the increase was in volume and quality. The overall sound changed for the better. I'm sure something was not right before. I can't put the amp specs up on the TX-RZ820 if it'd help...I was sure I read in the manual that unused channels power would go to used channels, can't find it again yet of course, but I would expect that to be the case. So, doubtful I'm getting more power. Doesn't seem likely anyway..right?

The puzzling part is, the often claimed benefits of passive bi-amp should have very little effect (assuming such effects are even audible) at low volume, yet you are saying it is audible to you at all volume iirc.

Another potentially possible cause could be that the specific speakers you have may be more receptive to be the bi-amp connection. That is, if their crossovers are not well designed. I am no expert in crossover design, but I think it is conceivable that a poorly designed crossover may in fact benefit from it being separated at the input and connected to two separate amps. Not really sure how it can be though, still thinking about it as a possibility only..

 

[Sparkus]

I would say volume is the larger portion of improvement and clarity at higher volume is much better. Apologies if I wasn't clear, I definitely don't express myself well

The clarity is very welcome as the window for good sound and volume previous was very small, between -18db and 0.0 db reference, above 0.0db was all distortion regardless of music playing. That window is now -28db and +3db to +10db ; music choice, record quality, etc being the differance for max volume.

Mind you, I would like to prefer 2 channel, no sub, for music and maybe I need to abandon that idea with these speakers. HT 5.1 sounds more than good enough -20db is plenty and -10db is quite loud. Even music at 5.1 is louder and better but sounds too much like 5.1 , if that makes sense.
It's only the 2 channel music I'm struggling with...so that may be the answer...it's better, but still not what my uninformed purchase expected. Listening with my sub won't help much at this point as it's too small, I'm looking hard at SVS, still not very informed but I get a good feeling from what I read and @Pogre recommended them, he seems pretty much in the know.

One thing I'm learning well. There's an awful lot of sand in this audio hobby, hard to pan the gold out.
Thanks man.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would say volume is the larger portion of improvement and clarity at higher volume is much better. Apologies if I wasn't clear, I definitely don't express myself well

The clarity is very welcome as the window for good sound and volume previous was very small, between -18db and 0.0 db reference, above 0.0db was all distortion regardless of music playing. That window is now -28db and +3db to +10db ; music choice, record quality, etc being the differance for max volume.

Mind you, I would like to prefer 2 channel, no sub, for music and maybe I need to abandon that idea with these speakers. HT 5.1 sounds more than good enough -20db is plenty and -10db is quite loud. Even music at 5.1 is louder and better but sounds too much like 5.1 , if that makes sense.
It's only the 2 channel music I'm struggling with...so that may be the answer...it's better, but still not what my uninformed purchase expected. Listening with my sub won't help much at this point as it's too small, I'm looking hard at SVS, still not very informed but I get a good feeling from what I read and @Pogre recommended them, he seems pretty much in the know.

One thing I'm learning well. There's an awful lot of sand in this audio hobby, hard to pan the gold out.
Thanks man.

You're comparing in the same mode? Same number of speakers used? Only difference is speaker wire? Do you have a way of measuring spl?

 

[Sparkus]

You're comparing in the same mode? Same number of speakers used? Only difference is speaker wire? Do you have a way of measuring spl?

No. Music is 2 channel, not even 2.1, just 2. I really don't care for the sound of 5.1 music and the sub isn't up to 2.1 music. 5.1 music is loud and clear...but it sounds like a movie, not music.
I'm honestly, aside from this "improvement", beginning to think these are not the speakers for music. sound way better but not what I'm wanting. So the last few days I'm thinking, got an entire house...small as it is, to myself. 2 rooms upstairs...maybe I should set up a music system, 2 channel, no clutter of furniture or such things. I mean, so far I'm into this for about 1k...if I'm investing in music, which I want more than HT...maybe a music room with a system geared for that is the way to go.
Mind you, just a thought.
I am beginning to think these are good HT speakers, but not good 2 channel music speakers. I've read a few things on that, and I'm trending to believe it.

 

[lovinthehd]

So you're comparing completely different things?

I use my systems for both music and movies without problems (I have four multich systems, the one 2ch setup is only because I ran out of other gear, so it's got some old 2ch gear, not because I wanted a dedicated 2ch system and its in a spare bedroom/office I don't use much).

Good speakers are good speakers....maybe the Polks simply don't suit you. With the frequency response they have they may be okay without a sub, altho I'd definitely use a sub with them as I do like a lower response capability (doesn't come into play as much with music as movies, but I do like to hear it if it's there).

 

[Sparkus]

I'm thinking that is overall the case. What I read is they are good HT mains, the highs are high...which they are, I've actually turned down the EQ on highs for music, that helped. A LOT of posts around on bi-amping them and all swear it made a difference, which I resisted until last. They are power hungry was another common thread...yet, the AVR I have should be adequate. I think they are probably good HT mains as a primary entertainment...but yeah, not at all what I expected for music. Then again, I had no clue when I bought them in Jan, and until the last few months of getting more involved in music listening...have I found these dislikes.
No biggie, no giant investment.
I would like to know why there is a difference with the passive bi-amping, or if I corrected an error...whatever, would like to find out why...just for knowing.
No matter, they sound okay for now. Gotta get up to speed on tech specs, a better understanding of how things are working.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm thinking that is overall the case. What I read is they are good HT mains, the highs are high...which they are, I've actually turned down the EQ on highs for music, that helped. A LOT of posts around on bi-amping them and all swear it made a difference, which I resisted until last. They are power hungry was another common thread...yet, the AVR I have should be adequate. I think they are probably good HT mains as a primary entertainment...but yeah, not at all what I expected for music. Then again, I had no clue when I bought them in Jan, and until the last few months of getting more involved in music listening...have I found these dislikes.
No biggie, no giant investment.
I would like to know why there is a difference with the passive bi-amping, or if I corrected an error...whatever, would like to find out why...just for knowing.
No matter, they sound okay for now. Gotta get up to speed on tech specs, a better understanding of how things are working.

Yeah the Polk fans (particularly their forum) are famous for the passive bi-amping thing and being power hungry nonsense. Can take a while to find the right speaker, tho. I haven't heard any modern Polks at all, all the ones I've heard were a long time ago or at least made a long time ago. I'm very curious about how much changed....it would be interesting for you to measure spl with each set of wires for the volume ranges you mention....

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm very curious about how much changed....it would be interesting for you to measure spl with each set of wires for the volume ranges you mention....

This!
I would love to see measurements comparing your speakers with noise... pure direct, wired both ways. Same if you start learning REW. Get a Umik and measure your system, pure direct, with standard wiring and bi-amped.

 

[PENG]

I would like to know why there is a difference with the passive bi-amping, or if I corrected an error...whatever, would like to find out why...just for knowing.
No matter, they sound okay for now. Gotta get up to speed on tech specs, a better understanding of how things are working.

I mentioned the poorly designed XO being a potential possibility in my last post, I was very skeptical about that scenario at the time, but after thinking about it some more, I think I am ready to delete the adjective "potential".

That's because:

1. I re-read some of you posts and realize you have the Polk Audio RTiA7.
2. If I remember right @TLS Guy might have commented on the RTiA9, or RTi9? and said something about their designs. I hope he will chime in and share his opinion on the RTiA7.

I don't always agree with TLSGuy on everything, but I trust his instinct on loudspeaker/crossover designs even if he based his opinions only on available specifications.

If the crossovers are in fact poorly designed, separating the HPF andd LPF might just happen (by chance..) to provide some help in reducing the counter emf effects from the 2X7" woofers and 1X6.5" mid. The XO design would probably have to quite bad though, for the effects to be audible. If the XO is doing its job, the high pass network shouldn't allow the low pass section to interfere much at all when the inputs are tied together in the single amp configuration. So while I am not ruling out poor XO design being a possibility, I still think the real reason remains to be found, something isn't right, e.g. some bad connection somewhere, or, no offense, you may just be more prone to Placebo/expectation bias.

 

[PENG]

What I read is they are good HT mains, the highs are high...which they are, I've actually turned down the EQ on highs for music, that helped. A LOT of posts around on bi-amping them and all swear it made a difference, which I resisted until last. They are power hungry was another common thread...yet, the AVR I have should be adequate. I think they are probably good HT mains as a primary entertainment...but yeah, not at all what I expected for music.

If you have are going to remain in this hobby for a long time, you may eventually (hopefully) learn that while it is good to read a lot on hot topics such those about sound quality, it is better to take the subjective part with a grain of salt and pay a lot more attention to the objective side of things. I still read the subjective stuff, but mostly for fun.

On the objective side though, it still could be a hit and miss thing if you are not careful with the sources of the information. For example, I just came across some Y-tube videos featuring someone from PS Audio, in the one about passive bi-amping, the speaker (person) couldn't even get the formula to calculate the impedance of a capacitor right. It could be a slip of the tongue kind of mistake, but I doubt it, as he repeated the error making it quite clear to me he was really mistaken. I found it hard to believe, and if I know how to contact him about the error I would certain let him know and in the hope that he may be willing to update that video. That's one thing I found about audio, it does not affect safety, so nobody care much about what anyone, or even self proclaimed experts say on the internet. So people are fed with false information all the time and the internet is filled with hearsay.

 

[Sparkus]

No offense at all, I have skin and I'm no audiophile, so I honestly am in a big learning curve here.

I agree it's a physical thing. Something wasn't right and I haven't found it. I'll spend time this weekend checking things out. I bought a sub and center for an 20 yr old Technics system...uninformed of course , then bought these RTi's expecting everything would work. I'm pretty sure after I get a bit more informed and get new sub, center matched to main speakers...I'll hear what I would like in 2 channel. Ya think?

 

[Sparkus]

As I said, I've learned there's a lot of sand in this hobby and it's hard to pan the gold.
Your right, lots of horseshit.
I'll be in it until I can't hear anymore...won't live long enough to be very smart at it, but I'll get enough to enjoy the music.
Thanks man

 

[Sparkus]

Yeah the Polk fans (particularly their forum) are famous for the passive bi-amping thing and being power hungry nonsense. Can take a while to find the right speaker, tho. I haven't heard any modern Polks at all, all the ones I've heard were a long time ago or at least made a long time ago. I'm very curious about how much changed....it would be interesting for you to measure spl with each set of wires for the volume ranges you mention....

To be honest, I think I could put all the watts these could take and they probably wouldn't sound that much better for music. Fine for HT multi channel...but they don't seem to be able to stand alone. They ain't music speakers. I think you can add to the system to make them sound different but not better. Keep in mind...I have no idea what I'm doing . It's an uninformed opinion.