Dayton UM 18-22 clipping issue with sealed cabs and crown amps.

moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
I have dual um 18-22s in sealed cabinets with the crown 1502 hooked up to each sub. I have a Pioneer Elite AVR with a mini DSP placed in between the amps and the subs. My question is when I have my AVR set to loud volume such as -10 DB on the dial, on certain movies with heavy Bass the crown amp start to complain and clip in the red. Is anyone else experiencing this? For example one or two scenes in Tron legacy cliped the amp at -12 db. Is this because the 1502 doesn't have enough juice for the drivers? Just asking because with the AVR turned to -12 DB I would think that the subwoofer should perform without any trouble.. let me know what you think. Boost is already set to 0db in the AVR before anyone mentions it lol.
 
Last edited:
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
That’s a dual voice coil driver. Assuming you configured it for 4-ohms, the Crown puts out less than half the UM18’s maximum power handling capability.

Also important, how much EQ did you apply with the miniDSP? It’s typically not a good idea to have more than about 8 dB of EQ. Start applying EQ, and the amplifier needs even more power than the driver’s maximum rating spec.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
We have been over this ground many times before. So I will make it as brief as I can.

The drivers you are using only make a decent sub in sealed application.

The only reason for building a sealed sub is to reduce enclosure size.

Apart from reduced enclosure size using as sealed sub for high spl. is a terrible idea.

In the last octave a loudspeaker cone is a terrible coupler to the air. It is highly inefficient.

To be an an effective high spl. transducer in the last octave requires an acoustic transformer. You options are a Helmholtz resonator, a pipe or a horn.

Sealed designs, IBs and open baffle are not in contention.

I have reviewed my models of your drivers in sealed application.

To achieve 116 db at 35 Hz requires 800 watts of drive, which is the Pe of those drivers.

At 20 Hz the full 800 watts only achieves 100 db at 1 meter.

So in any event a high pass filter at 25 Hz of at least 12 db per octave is required to produce any high spl. levels above 25 Hz. If you want 20 Hz response or below that means severely curtailing spl above 25 Hz.

So what you describe is predicted by the model and to be expected.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
That’s a dual voice coil driver. Assuming you configured it for 4-ohms, the Crown puts out less than half the UM18’s maximum power handling capability.

Also important, how much EQ did you apply with the miniDSP? It’s typically not a good idea to have more than about 8 dB of EQ. Start applying EQ, and the amplifier needs even more power than the driver’s maximum rating spec.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
I'll have to take some time to check the parameters of the minidsp but I have each channel running to each coil so 775watts per coil X 2 = 1500 watts per amp so there is plenty of power to run a but of boost I would think.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
So in any event a high pass filter at 25 Hz of at least 12 db per octave is required to produce any high spl. levels above 25 Hz. If you want 20 Hz response or below that means severely curtailing spl above 25 Hz.
I don't have any high pass filter set. Should I set it to what you recommended above? If so, will this help reduce clipping?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I also have a linkwitz transform set to 18hz on each sub... Won't the highpass make this useless?
Yes, it will. But as I have pointed out that you have fallen right into the trap of designing for low end extension and high output by designing a sealed alignment. Unfortunately you have made yourself a wonderful teaching case.

So with that sub you can have either, but NOT BOTH, bass extension or higher output.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Yes, it will. But as I have pointed out that you have fallen right into the trap of designing for low end extension and high output by designing a sealed alignment. Unfortunately you have made yourself a wonderful teaching case.

So with that sub you can have either, but NOT BOTH, bass extension or higher output.
Interesting, so with my scenario, you are suggesting to erase the Linkwitz-Riley transform and set a high pass filter to 25hz @ 12 db per octave?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Interesting, so with my scenario, you are suggesting to erase the Linkwitz-Riley transform and set a high pass filter to 25hz @ 12 db per octave?
Actually I'm not suggesting anything. I'm presenting you with a stark choice.

You can go for higher output or bass extension.

However it is really pretty much universal to put a high pass filter at 25 Hz or above, on any sealed sub if you want high output, and less chance of damage.

The benefits of going lower than 25 Hz are slim and you actually will go lower than that because of room gain.

In any event the power output curve of that driver becomes flat at 25 Hz, which is why that is a good place to put the filter. So what I'm saying for your configuration increasing power to the driver below 25 Hz is actually at the point of diminishing returns.

As I said if you want 18 Hz and below, then you need an acoustic transformer. The foot print will be MUCH larger. You among other things have proved the validity of the iron man's law of Hoffman.

I'm sorry this interesting and crucial point has come at your expense, but it really illustrates in a real world situation what many of us have pointed out repeatedly over the years. I have to say though with that total design you have really illustrated the point.
 
N

NorCalRP

Full Audioholic
I'll have to take some time to check the parameters of the minidsp but I have each channel running to each coil so 775watts per coil X 2 = 1500 watts per amp so there is plenty of power to run a but of boost I would think.
I just ordered the same kit, but grabbed the XLS 2502. I'll be running the coils coupled. I wonder if the 2 Ohm impedence taxes the driver. In another thread I was told that when coupled the overall impedence is closer to 6 Ohms.

My hope is to run duals off of one 2502, with a total of four subs and two amps. Now I'm wondering if it might be a decent idea to exchange out the Crown for Behringers. What I like about the Crowns, however, is the higher SNR and the quieter operation.

Another thing to mention is that I'm not concerned as much about output as I am about coverage throughout the room. I have an SVS PC-2000 and HSU VTF-3 MK4. Shady mentioned some differences between the Ultimax and my current subs. It was interesting to me that outside of 20hz-35hz that the Ultimax outperforms- even on the lower side.

@TLS Guy I'd love some of your insight. The musicality of the UM18-22 appeals, hence the shift, and I know it's more suited to that than what I'm working with right now. Gear, btw, will be 4400H running to 2x4hd to the Crown (haven't put the kit together yet, so just my Denon handling everything right now).
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Actually I'm not suggesting anything. I'm presenting you with a stark choice.

You can go for higher output or bass extension.

However it is really pretty much universal to put a high pass filter at 25 Hz or above, on any sealed sub if you want high output, and less chance of damage.

The benefits of going lower than 25 Hz are slim and you actually will go lower than that because of room gain.

In any event the power output curve of that driver becomes flat at 25 Hz, which is why that is a good place to put the filter. So what I'm saying for your configuration increasing power to the driver below 25 Hz is actually at the point of diminishing returns.

As I said if you want 18 Hz and below, then you need an acoustic transformer. The foot print will be MUCH larger. You among other things have proved the validity of the iron man's law of Hoffman.

I'm sorry this interesting and crucial point has come at your expense, but it really illustrates in a real world situation what many of us have pointed out repeatedly over the years. I have to say though with that total design you have really illustrated the point.
So if I set the high pass to 25 Hz should I do away with the linkwitz transform?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
So if I set the high pass to 25 Hz should I do away with the linkwitz transform?
Yes. I will reply to the respondent above about his issues. That will also further expand on your issue.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I just ordered the same kit, but grabbed the XLS 2502. I'll be running the coils coupled. I wonder if the 2 Ohm impedence taxes the driver. In another thread I was told that when coupled the overall impedence is closer to 6 Ohms.

My hope is to run duals off of one 2502, with a total of four subs and two amps. Now I'm wondering if it might be a decent idea to exchange out the Crown for Behringers. What I like about the Crowns, however, is the higher SNR and the quieter operation.

Another thing to mention is that I'm not concerned as much about output as I am about coverage throughout the room. I have an SVS PC-2000 and HSU VTF-3 MK4. Shady mentioned some differences between the Ultimax and my current subs. It was interesting to me that outside of 20hz-35hz that the Ultimax outperforms- even on the lower side.

@TLS Guy I'd love some of your insight. The musicality of the UM18-22 appeals, hence the shift, and I know it's more suited to that than what I'm working with right now. Gear, btw, will be 4400H running to 2x4hd to the Crown (haven't put the kit together yet, so just my Denon handling everything right now).
To much attention is paid to solely how low will it go. The other side of the coin is how loud will it go at that frequency. At 25 Hz those drivers become limited in power output to 100 db 1 meter. If you have 2 of them then 103 db and 3 db for each one you have. Domestically for most that is pretty good. If you are a real "bass head" though probably not enough. Also people tend to set their subs far too loud in my opinion. That sort of sonic imbalance seems far too prevalent.

The other issue is that those drivers below 25 do not increase their power output with increased drive due to mechanical limitations.

If it were not for size factor no one would ever stuff a woofer in a sealed box. Basically it is a terrible idea and extremely crude.

At low frequencies a loudspeaker cone is horribly inefficient. I know generating sound is all about moving air, but a speaker cone does not move a lot of air. It takes pressure to move air.

That is where the concept of using an acoustic transformer comes in. The analogy is identical to an electric circuit. Voltage cause current to flow, the higher the voltage the high the current and the greater the power. Pressure is equivalent to voltage. Air movement equivalent to current. So we need pressure variation to move air.

That is what ported enclosures, pipes and horns do. The provide high pressure to the back of the cone. Much higher in fact than the restoring force of a sealed box. On top of that the rear radiation from the cone is totally adsorbed in the box and therefore wasted..

So good enclosures harness the power from the rear of the cone where there is very high pressure. This pressure then generates highly significant air displacement from the port, pipe or horn mouth. Of these the horn is by far the most efficient and the pipe close behind. A pipe closed at one end is the easiest to understand.

In a pipe where there is maximal pressure there in no air movement. Where there is no pressure there is maximal air movement. So at the closed end there can not be air movement only pressure change. The pressure is high, and therefore ideal for limiting cone movement and controlling it. At the open end these high pressures generated at the closed end result in large air movements from the open end.

In the ported enclosure the pressures are high and we have to make sure that the port has sufficient cross sectional area to not generate turbulence and noise. (chuffing).

A horn in front of the horn throat generates enormous pressure for high output at the horn mouth.

To cut to the bottom line, you never select a sealed solution for a sub if you have room for a bigger box. If it were not for the size issue we would not be talking about closed boxes ever.

So yes, my advice to you is to not go for a sealed solution if you have the space for something better.

The notion that sealed designs are inherently more musical is arrant nonsense.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Yes. I will reply to the respondent above about his issues. That will also further expand on your issue.
Would adding more power in the form of another amp solve the clipping issue? Thanks for your time.
 
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