Bi-Amping using AVR + External?

[JDM3030]

I have a Yamaha RX-A880 AVR as well as a Crown XLS 1502. Currently, I use the Crown to power my front mains (Klipsch RP-260Fs). I would also add that have a Crown 1002 powering my center channel and my AVR powers my 4 surround speakers (2 side and 2 rear).

Is it possible and/or would it make any sense to passively bi-amp my fronts using the Crown for the low end (300 watts) and the Yamaha Receiver to power the high end (100 watts)? Will the AVR allow for its internal amp to function while simultaneously providing a signal to the pre-out? Would gain matching be overly challenging? Does this even seem like a good idea? Would you anticipate any sonic improvement? Would speaker cables need to match in terms of gauge and length?

Alternatively, I could just bi-wire the speakers using the Crown or I could bi-amp using either the L/R channels of the Crown or use two Crown amps (1002 for high end and 1502 for low end). Or I could leave everything as-is and stop obsessing lol.

 

[j_garcia]

Not really any sonic benefit IMO. Unless you have a massive room, the amount of power you're feeding them now should be plenty.

Bi-wiring is a complete and utter waste of time. Yes, no need to obsess, your current setup sounds fine

 

[JDM3030]

Not really any sonic benefit IMO. Unless you have a massive room, the amount of power you're feeding them now should be plenty.

Bi-wiring is a complete and utter waste of time. Yes, no need to obsess, your current setup sounds fine

Thanks for the feedback. I kind of assumed the bi-wiring was a waste but figured I would throw it out there just in case. In addition, I am already using 12 gauge wire for the fronts, so bi-wiring is likely even less valuable.

In terms of bi-amping, I am definitely not trying to get any more power as the Crown delivers plenty. The room is about 18'x19' with 7.5' ceilings. My listening position for stereo is about 11-12 feet from each speaker with the speakers about 11-12 feet apart. I provided the various wattage to ensure I would not be mismatching the amps somehow. I am assuming I need less power for the high end. My theoretical goal in bi-amping would be to improve the separation and clarity for music.

 

[Swerd]

You didn't mention what speakers are you using for your left and right fronts?

Edit: I just re-read your original post. You have Klipsch RP-260F as your main speakers. Klipsch claims they have a sensitivity of 97 dB. While Klipsch, and other companies, have been known to exaggerate sensitivity numbers, that high a sensitivity is hard to believe. Just the same, Klipsch does have a reputation for rather sensitive speakers. Even if the sensitivity is 90 dB, your speakers should be quite easy to drive with your Yamaha AVR.

Is it possible and/or would it make any sense to passively bi-amp my fronts?

I agree with j_garcia. Bi-amping is a controversial topic only because it gets repeated so often over the internet. It shouldn't. There is simply no evidence that it has any audible benefit. Unless you're doing concert hall or stadium sound with a pro sound system, don't bother with bi-amping.

Is it possible and/or would it make any sense to passively bi-amp my fronts using the Crown for the low end (300 watts) and the Yamaha Receiver to power the high end (100 watts)?

Using two different amplifiers with possibly different gain structures and polarities can be a large source of trouble. Avoid it.

Will the AVR allow for its internal amp to function while simultaneously providing a signal to the pre-out?

It should, but for the reasons (above) you shouldn't use both at the same time. I see no problem if you want to use one of those Crown amps to drive your front left & right speakers, while using the Yamaha as a pre-amp. But don't go down the bi-amp rabbit hole.

Alternatively, I could just bi-wire the speakers using the Crown or I could bi-amp using either the L/R channels of the Crown or use two Crown amps (1002 for high end and 1502 for low end).

Bi-wire? We don't go there – and you shouldn't either.

Or I could leave everything as-is and stop obsessing lol.

 

[JDM3030]

You didn't mention what speakers are you using for your left and right fronts?
I agree with j_garcia. Bi-amping is a controversial topic only because it gets repeated so often over the internet. It shouldn't. There is simply no evidence that it has any audible benefit. Unless you're doing concert hall or stadium sound with a pro sound system, don't bother with bi-amping.
Using two different amplifiers with possibly different gain structure and polarity can be a large source of trouble. Avoid it.
It should, but for the reasons (above) you shouldn't use both at the same time. I see no problem if you want to use one of those Crown amps to drive your front left & right speakers, while using the Yamaha as a pre-amp. But don't go down the bi-amp rabbit hole.
Bi-wire? We don't go there – and you shouldn't either.

I am using Klipsch RP-260F for fronts.

I hear you regarding the gain mismatch. I was afraid of that.

Sounds like a waste given the replies above. Wouldn't cost more than a set a cables though
But yes, I don't want to chase my tail on this issue if it's not going to generate any sonic improvements.

 

[Swerd]

But yes, I don't want to chase my tail on this issue if it's not going to generate any sonic improvements.

With sensitive speakers like yours, there is no need at all for high-powered amps. Your Yamaha should do well unaided.

If you don't like the sound of those speakers, it's not the amp, it's the speakers themselves.

 

[JDM3030]

With sensitive speakers like yours, there is no need at all for high-powered amps. Your Yamaha should do well unaided.

If you don't like the sound of those speakers, it's not the amp, it's the speakers themselves.

I have no complaints with the speakers. Just always chasing ways to make it better.

I have found the higher powered Crown amps valuable vs the Yamaha alone. I think this is primarily because I like to listen at louder volumes. The Crown amp sounds cleaner to me at high volume and has more punch and authority. At least that what I think I hear...

 

[j_garcia]

The Crown should give you less distortion at higher volume, so it will sound more clear than the Yamaha. That does not necessarily mean "better", which people often equate with "louder", but the benefit is still undeniably there because you can crank it more before distortion is audible.

 

[ryanosaur]

Swerd and J said it already.
I’ve talked to professional speaker designers and asked them about it, too. They pretty much all agree it’s s waste! They still put the two pairs of binding posts on their speakers though because people expect it, and not doing so may hurt resale value down the road... was one explanation.
Truth is, the only real benefit of Buy-Wiring is that you alter the impedance of the wires, two sets per speaker lowers their impedance, thus “allowing more current to flow.” I’ve only heard one designer claim that he hears a difference doing that.
Regardless, with 12AWG, you don’t need to worry about cable impedance.
I was very intrigued by the conversations and purported benefits of bi-amping too. I chose not too. Didn’t make sense from a cost vs effect standpoint. Though if you do it properly, it won’t hurt anything, you do need matching amps for it.
The only time non matching amps are employed is in active bi-amping where a person may use a beefy solid state amp for the lows and a nice tube amp for the tweeter and maybe mid (if not a separate amp there as well). Active bi-amping is also expensive. Along with the amps, you have to buy the external active crossovers too and be able to program them.

 

[JDM3030]

The Crown should give you less distortion at higher volume, so it will sound more clear than the Yamaha. That does not necessarily mean "better", which people often equate with "louder", but the benefit is still undeniably there because you can crank it more before distortion is audible.

I think I understand what you mean. I am sure there are amps that spec out much better than the Crown at lower volumes or produce a sweeter sound. I just like the option of cranking the volume sometimes for music. Also, it's never a bad thing to crank the volume for some first person shooter game with loud explosions all around you lol. My girlfriend isn't a fan but she isn't always home. I feel like the Yamaha sounds very good but if I crank it, the audio starts to fall apart. Off subject though...

 

[JDM3030]

I was very intrigued by the conversations and purported benefits of bi-amping too. I chose not too. Didn’t make sense from a cost vs effect standpoint. Though if you do it properly, it won’t hurt anything, you do need matching amps for it.
The only time non matching amps are employed is in active bi-amping where a person may use a beefy solid state amp for the lows and a nice tube amp for the tweeter and maybe mid (if not a separate amp there as well). Active bi-amping is also expensive. Along with the amps, you have to buy the external active crossovers too and be able to program them.

I think my logic for using the Receiver amp for the highs was that the Yamaha amp might be slightly better specs which could matter more for the highs? I figured combining that with the Crown for the lows would still take the load off the receiver amp and potentially allow for better fidelity. Plus the receiver amp is free!

It sounds like the whole idea is flawed though because I would be introducing too much room for error with mismatched gain on the amps.

 

[Pogre]

I've done both. Made no difference aside from my speakers giving a light *pop* on powering up so I put the jumpers back on and haven't thought about it since. What do you have for subwoofage?

 

[JDM3030]

I've done both. Made no difference aside from my speakers giving a light *pop* on powering up so I put the jumpers back on and haven't thought about it since. What do you have for subwoofage?

That's very helpful. I do believe I will abandon the notion of bi anything.

I have duel PB-1000's positioned just inside the two front towers. My gut tells me upgrading the subs would make the most sonic improvement. However, it will also cost the most coin. The bi-amp notion was partially driven by the low cost involved.


Not to change the issue and dive into a different controversy... What input sensitivity would you anyone recommend for the Crown amps? I can use 0.775v or 1.4v, and I believe the receiver outputs 1v per the specs. I have set the system up using both. If I use 0.775v, I end up running the amps at about 70% gain. If I use 1.4v, I nearly max out the amp gain. What is the potential advantage or disadvantage of both?

 

[ryanosaur]

That's very helpful. I do believe I will abandon the notion of bi anything.

I have duel PB-1000's positioned just inside the two front towers. My gut tells me upgrading the subs would make the most sonic improvement. However, it will also cost the most coin. The bi-amp notion was partially driven by the low cost involved.


Not to change the issue and dive into a different controversy... What input sensitivity would you anyone recommend for the Crown amps? I can use 0.775v or 1.4v, and I believe the receiver outputs 1v per the specs. I have set the system up using both. If I use 0.775v, I end up running the amps at about 70% gain. If I use 1.4v, I nearly max out the amp gain. What is the potential advantage or disadvantage of both?

There have been other threads on this topic. Search on xls amps and you should find two or three that discuss that.

 

[PENG]

Is it possible and/or would it make any sense to passively bi-amp my fronts using the Crown for the low end (300 watts) and the Yamaha Receiver to power the high end (100 watts)? Will the AVR allow for its internal amp to function while simultaneously providing a signal to the pre-out? Would gain matching be overly challenging?

Yes, because the pre outs are always "hot". No it wouldn't be "overly" challenging because the Crown amp has a good range of variable sensitivity adjustments but you do have to know what you are doing, and need a good spl meter.

Does this even seem like a good idea? Would you anticipate any sonic improvement? Would speaker cables need to match in terms of gauge and length?

A good idea just for fun, but no, I wouldn't anticipate any sonic improvement, not audible improvement anyway. Speaker cables don't need to match in terms of gauge and length as long as they are all size right or over sized for the length and ampacity.

Alternatively, I could just bi-wire the speakers using the Crown or I could bi-amp using either the L/R channels of the Crown or use two Crown amps (1002 for high end and 1502 for low end). Or I could leave everything as-is and stop obsessing lol.

Agreed with what others have said already, so "stop obsessing"..

 

[JDM3030]

There have been other threads on this topic. Search on xls amps and you should find two or three that discuss that.

I have looked at many similar threads. I might be slow but I still don't fully understand it. I have run my system with both input sensitivities. The only difference I can tell is that with the higher sensitivity, I just need to turn the amp gain up more. I guess my real question is what is the downside of getting it wrong either way? Is one scenario truly detrimental?

 

[ryanosaur]

I have looked at many similar threads. I might be slow but I still don't fully understand it. I have run my system with both input sensitivities. The only difference I can tell is that with the higher sensitivity, I just need to turn the amp gain up more. I guess my real question is what is the downside of getting it wrong either way? Is one scenario truly detrimental?

I am no expert on adjusting gain. The important point may be that the AVR pre-out signal is matching the input sensitivity of the Crown just right. In that case, there is no problem having the gain set at full on the Crown. If you are detecting any clipping whatsoever, then it is time to adjust. If you set it at the lower voltage, then your AVR may very well be supplying a much higher voltage than necessary to achieve full amplification. This is where clipping can become a big problem, assuming I understand the electrical process correctly. If your preout signal is too strong, then the amp will amplify that distortion. this is what can do damage to your system. I am uncertain if turning the gain knobs down would adequately compensate for that. Perhaps @PENG can comment, please?
Again, I stress, this is something I haven't really learned very well yet. *blushes

 

[JDM3030]

I am no expert on adjusting gain. The important point may be that the AVR pre-out signal is matching the input sensitivity of the Crown just right. In that case, there is no problem having the gain set at full on the Crown. If you are detecting any clipping whatsoever, then it is time to adjust. If you set it at the lower voltage, then your AVR may very well be supplying a much higher voltage than necessary to achieve full amplification. This is where clipping can become a big problem, assuming I understand the electrical process correctly. If your preout signal is too strong, then the amp will amplify that distortion. this is what can do damage to your system. I am uncertain if turning the gain knobs down would adequately compensate for that. Perhaps @PENG can comment, please?
Again, I stress, this is something I haven't really learned very well yet. *blushes

Thanks for the feedback. I currently have it set to the 1.4v sensitivity which is less sensitive. I have talked to Yamaha and they have given me conflicting information

I can see it two ways but I have no clue what I am talking about...

If I am using a higher sensitivity on the amp (0.775v), the amp will see the pre-out signal as hotter so perhaps the amp distorts because the signal is too hot?

If I am using the lower/normal sensitivity (1.4v), I will need to turn the volume up higher on my AVR to get the same volume. Could this clip the pre-amp in the AVR?

The receiver specs say the output is 1v.

So much conflicting info out there on this and I clearly don't understand the consequences or benefits or either scenario.

 

[lovinthehd]

The nominal output of your pre-outs isn't much to go on. How did you determine your gain settings on the amps? I have older Crowns without the adjustable sensitivity (1.4V) and depending on pre-amp, my gains tend to be in the 60-90% range (shouldn't be any problem with even full gain). As long as you're not getting any bothersome noise I'd just leave it at the 1.4V level which yields the best snr spec for the amp. I'd also say the bi-wiring or passive bi-amping not to be worth the time/effort.

 

[Swerd]

I have looked at many similar threads. I might be slow but I still don't fully understand it. I have run my system with both input sensitivities. The only difference I can tell is that with the higher sensitivity, I just need to turn the amp gain up more. I guess my real question is what is the downside of getting it wrong either way? Is one scenario truly detrimental?

As far as I know, the only downside comes when you use more than one external amp with differing input sensitivities or gain structures. You might have more difficulty in balancing the sound among all the channels. You could still make it work, but with more effort. It won't be detrimental in the sense that it could cause damage to speakers or electronic gear.

You're over-thinking this .

Go ahead and use one of your Crown amps. It will provide more power to your speakers, and you may very well hear a difference vs. the Yamaha's amp section. But don't fool yourself into thinking that bi-amping makes anything sound better, or even different.