Subwoofer pairing with Revel F35/F36

[sakete]

Hi,

I have Revel F35/F36 on my shortlist for speakers I'd want to get and will probably want to pair it with a good affordable sub. Want a 2.1 setup mainly for music.

What are some good subs I should be looking at around $500. I don't know too much about subs, is it better to get a vented design or sealed? What other factors should I consider.

The back wall for the speakers is about 9ft long, with the right wall being ~11ft long. It'll be in that corner I'll place the sub, with one of the speakers right next to it. The left side is open (no wall) and leads into the kitchen and front living room. Back wall is about 17ft long until it hits a half-height divider that's about 8ft long, and then beyond that is the kitchen area.

In the attached image, the corner I'm referring to is in the bottom left.

Thanks!

 

[shadyJ]

I would go for a vented design, and one that digs deep in order to justify adding a sub to speakers that are already so capable in low-frequencies. In the $500 range I would be looking at the SVS PB-1000, Monoprice Monolith 10" THX Select, and the Hsu Research VTF-2 mk5.

 

[sakete]

I would go for a vented design, and one that digs deep in order to justify adding a sub to speakers that are already so capable in low-frequencies. In the $500 range I would be looking at the SVS PB-1000, Monoprice Monolith 10" THX Select, and the Hsu Research VTF-2 mk5.

Thanks. And is placement in a corner like I proposed generally a good thing to do?

 

[Pogre]

Agree with @shadyJ and would also say that it's worth spending a li'l bit extra for a quality sub (any that shady mentioned are good brands), and if you can afford it I don't believe you can have "too much" sub. In this case bigger is better, especially in a large room.

A lot of folks will underestimate how much a good quality subwoofer (or 2) can really elevate a system when set up properly.

 

[snakeeyes]

I can recommend the HSU VTF2 mk5. I really like my pair.

 

[Pogre]

I can recommend the HSU VTF2 mk5. I really like my pair.

Hsu make great subs. I have a pair of VTF-3 MK5's and love 'em. IME Hsu about as good as it gets bang for buck unless you wanna go the DIY route...

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks. And is placement in a corner like I proposed generally a good thing to do?

Corner placement is generally OK but don't get hung on it if it doesn't sound great. My advice would be try different placement throughout the room and keep it where it sounds best to your ears.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks. And is placement in a corner like I proposed generally a good thing to do?

In my experience, corner loading is not always good. I highly recommend doing the Subwoofer Crawl to experiment with how it sounds in your room. Since, as Shady said, you already have 2 good sources for some LF on your front wall, I would recommend experimenting with placing it on the sides or back wall. This will spread out your Lows and help even out the response a touch. (Yes, even though you will be crossing the subs at some point, say 60 or 80 Hz, as an example, your speakers and subs will still be reproducing the same information and having some space between them will potentially help avoid any nulls and cancelations in FR.)

 

[snakeeyes]

In my experience, corner loading is not always good. I highly recommend doing the Subwoofer Crawl to experiment with how it sounds in your room. Since, as Shady said, you already have 2 good sources for some LF on your front wall, I would recommend experimenting with placing it on the sides or back wall. This will spread out your Lows and help even out the response a touch. (Yes, even though you will be crossing the subs at some point, say 60 or 80 Hz, as an example, your speakers and subs will still be reproducing the same information and having some space between them will potentially help avoid any nulls and cancelations in FR.)

So are you saying to go with the F35 over the F36?

 

[ryanosaur]

So are you saying to go with the F35 over the F36?

I'll play... 35 Hz on the smaller F35 is still pretty good. Also, the smaller 5.25" woofer might cross better with the tweeterthan the 6.5" woofer on the F36.
What I don't like so much is the 2.5-way design. Still not being a design master, I'm leery of having multiple woofers crossed at different points. It can be done well, but one of the design gurus studied it and said that the benefit was minimal at best. IIRC, there were some drawbacks too.
I won't be able to look for that reference until much later tonight. But I'll get back to you, Snake!
Regardless, I think everybody here that's seen a post from me on the topic knows my predilection for a good 3-way over anything else. The only exception to that would be a very well made 2-way by DM through Salk.
Ya, I'm a silly bastard. But you asked.

 

[snakeeyes]

I'll play... 35 Hz on the smaller F35 is still pretty good. Also, the smaller 5.25" woofer might cross better with the tweeterthan the 6.5" woofer on the F36.
What I don't like so much is the 2.5-way design. Still not being a design master, I'm leery of having multiple woofers crossed at different points. It can be done well, but one of the design gurus studied it and said that the benefit was minimal at best. IIRC, there were some drawbacks too.
I won't be able to look for that reference until much later tonight. But I'll get back to you, Snake!
Regardless, I think everybody here that's seen a post from me on the topic knows my predilection for a good 3-way over anything else. The only exception to that would be a very well made 2-way by DM through Salk.
Ya, I'm a silly bastard. But you asked.

I’m curious because of the savings mostly.

 

[sakete]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'll probably go for the Hsu and will also experiment with putting it in the back corner (so instead of front right, in the back right).

And based on what ryanosaur said I'm even more inclined to just go for the F35, might be a better overall balance if I'm getting a sub. But perhaps I'll just get the speakers first, and a sub later, and first see if I even need a sub. It's a relatively small space and maybe the room response will boost the lows enough to my liking for (for music purposes). But I do like the idea of adding a sub as with some of my music there are some very deep bass notes that on many speakers sound rolled off (the notes sound softer when really they should be at the same volume, if you will, as the higher bass notes that are above 50hz).

 

[sakete]

So on another forum I was recommended the Rythmik L12, a sealed design, and pretty small (I do like the small form factor). How would that compare to the ported designs you guys recommended here (HSU, SVS, Monolith)?

 

[snakeeyes]

So on another forum I was recommended the Rythmik L12, a sealed design, and pretty small (I do like the small form factor). How would that compare to the ported designs you guys recommended here (HSU, SVS, Monolith)?

I have that sub in my bedroom 1350 cu ft and it sounds great with my Canton Ventos at normal volume levels but I don’t think it will be enough for 1700 cu ft.

I think for sealed the HSU ULS15 is a good bet. It’s a sealed 15

 

[shadyJ]

So on another forum I was recommended the Rythmik L12, a sealed design, and pretty small (I do like the small form factor). How would that compare to the ported designs you guys recommended here (HSU, SVS, Monolith)?

I don't think that sub would be a great fit for some tower speakers. The reason is it will not be able to play deep bass very well, like stuff below 30 Hz. But your speakers can already take care of the range above that pretty well, so what's the point in getting a sub that can only really do what your speakers are already pretty good at? That's why I suggest a ported sub with a deep tuning frequency. They can make a far more significant contribution. The catch is that the sub must necessarily be a bit larger than a small sealed enclosure.

 

[sakete]

I don't think that sub would be a great fit for some tower speakers. The reason is it will not be able to play deep bass very well, like stuff below 30 Hz. But your speakers can already take care of the range above that pretty well, so what's the point in getting a sub that can only really do what your speakers are already pretty good at? That's why I suggest a ported sub with a deep tuning frequency. They can make a far more significant contribution. The catch is that the sub must necessarily be a bit larger than a small sealed enclosure.

Got it, your explanation makes perfect sense. Guess I'll be getting the Hsu then, I like the versatility of being able to tune it in different ways, and they're otherwise all about the same size. Hope my wife will approve

 

[ryanosaur]

I won't be able to look for that reference until much later tonight. But I'll get back to you, Snake!

@snakeeyes
So the reference I was thinking about is Dickason's LDC v7. Specifically what he discusses is a comparison of WTW (d'Appolito) as a 2-way vs the same configuration with a 2.5-way with one of the woofers (lower) crossed 1 octave lower than the other which crosses normally to the tweeter. In this instance, his modeling showed that the lobing you would experience in a 2-way WTW was lessened with the 2.5-way at the cost of increased asymmetry in the vertical dispersion. His contention is that the lobing in a traditional 2-way WTW is the lesser evil and is less audible perhaps than the resulting asymmetry in dispersion from the 2.5-way version.
His modeled polar plot for vertical dispersion showed a decided upward tilt in the 2.5-way speaker. His subjective listening experience using the same speaker, one set as a 2-way, the other as a 2.5-way, played mono and compared side by side, was that they shared a similar timbre, but that the image depth was lacking in the 2.5-way.

I cannot say whether this effect might carry over in any way to a speaker like the F35 or F36. I don't have the experience building or testing speakers to know what to expect. I think it is interesting though that Dickason dedicated a small space in his book to discussing this in terms of why and where drivers are placed on the baffle and the resulting effects.

My instinct is that using matching drivers with different XO points is not optimal, rather a comprimise to tease performance out of a complex system. In my mind, if you are going to the effort of building XOs with 2 different high-pass filters, you might as well go to the extent of putting a mid-woof in and building a bandpass filter, thus taking the risk of crossing woofers too high or tweeters too low completely off the table.

Perhaps @shadyJ can shed some light on this? Not so much geared toward a specific speaker, but in general terms?

Cheers!

 

[snakeeyes]

@snakeeyes
So the reference I was thinking about is Dickason's LDC v7. Specifically what he discusses is a comparison of WTW (d'Appolito) as a 2-way vs the same configuration with a 2.5-way with one of the woofers (lower) crossed 1 octave lower than the other which crosses normally to the tweeter. In this instance, his modeling showed that the lobing you would experience in a 2-way WTW was lessened with the 2.5-way at the cost of increased asymmetry in the vertical dispersion. His contention is that the lobing in a traditional 2-way WTW is the lesser evil and is less audible perhaps than the resulting asymmetry in dispersion from the 2.5-way version.
His modeled polar plot for vertical dispersion showed a decided upward tilt in the 2.5-way speaker. His subjective listening experience using the same speaker, one set as a 2-way, the other as a 2.5-way, played mono and compared side by side, was that they shared a similar timbre, but that the image depth was lacking in the 2.5-way.

I cannot say whether this effect might carry over in any way to a speaker like the F35 or F36. I don't have the experience building or testing speakers to know what to expect. I think it is interesting though that Dickason dedicated a small space in his book to discussing this in terms of why and where drivers are placed on the baffle and the resulting effects.

My instinct is that using matching drivers with different XO points is not optimal, rather a comprimise to tease performance out of a complex system. In my mind, if you are going to the effort of building XOs with 2 different high-pass filters, you might as well go to the extent of putting a mid-woof in and building a bandpass filter, thus taking the risk of crossing woofers too high or tweeters too low completely off the table.

Perhaps @shadyJ can shed some light on this? Not so much geared toward a specific speaker, but in general terms?

Cheers!

I am even more ignorant on this than you, as you probably guessed .

So lobing is more noticeable in a horizontal speaker rather than vertical speaker orientation from what I’m aware of so that part makes sense.

I’m unclear what you are saying when you say imagining depth gets compromised in a 2.5 way though. That part didn’t sink in for me. LOL

 

[lovinthehd]

Are Dickason's comments valid outside of that specific driver arrangement, tho?

 

[ryanosaur]

I am even more ignorant on this than you, as you probably guessed .

So lobing is more noticeable in a horizontal speaker rather than vertical speaker orientation from what I’m aware of so that part makes sense.

I’m unclear what you are saying when you say imagining depth gets compromised in a 2.5 way though. That part didn’t sink in for me. LOL

To be fair, he was very clear in stating that was his subjective experience when listening. What he showed in his modeling was that perhaps the cause was the upward tilt in vertical dispersion as everything else matched up pretty well between the two designs.

For that last point, good sir, that's why I summoned the big guns in.