Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[snakeeyes]

But are you not interested in seeing the FRs comparing towers+subwoofer(s) with different XO? What I am saying is, if your towers has FR down low, chances are greater that they would actually work against the sub (against each other) instead of helping in an overall sense, i.e. less smooth, clear, and "musical". It may go the other for sure depending on your setup in your room.

Maybe worth graphing to know more, but the issue is I can localize the Rhytmik LVX12 sub Is front left when the towers are crossed over. I tried it a week then back for a couple weeks then another two weeks then put it back to full range the past 8 mo and am really happy this way. If I monkey with it again, I’ll need to make notes of all the current settings because it’s very good right now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is human psychology a compulsory course for you guys?

Definitely required to understand how the real world works.

What I don’t know is if jacking up the prices hurt their overall revenues or does it actually help their revenues?

Perhaps @M Code could chime in.

 

[PENG]

Definitely required to understand how the real world works.

What I don’t know is if jacking up the prices hurt their overall revenues or does it actually help their revenues?

Perhaps @M Code could chime in.

I think if they lose the psy edge they cannot compete with D&M, Y, and O and even Sony, because of their higher cost due to their inherently lower purchase vol.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Audyssey is taking away sound quality from my music. When i copied the values to the EQ for adjusting it had set my values to the following. 0 being flat.

2kHz +4.0
4kHz +3.5
8kHz +5.0
16kHz +6.0

I’m still surprised with how much Audyssey tried to increase the treble as much as +6dB.

Does this mean it takes a +6dB boost at 16kHz and +5dB boost at 8kHz to achieve a flatter on-axis FR for your speakers?

Here is the Stereophile on-axis of the 683s2.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-683-s2-loudspeaker-measurements

We can see that @ 2kHz, it is down -5dB. At 6kHz, it’s down -7dB. At 20kHz, it’s down -5dB.

So maybe that’s why Audyssey boosted the treble so much to make the on-axis FR closer to 0.0dB.

 

[PENG]

Maybe worth graphing to know more, but the issue is I can localize the Rhytmik LVX12 sub Is front left when the towers are crossed over. I tried it a week then back for a couple weeks then another two weeks then put it back to full range the past 8 mo and am really happy this way. If I monkey with it again, I’ll need to make notes of all the current settings because it’s very good right now.

Like I said, it's setup and room related. If it is objectively good now, REW graphs will confirm that but if it sounds the best to you now then I guess you don't need such confirmation.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think if they lose the psy edge they cannot compete with D&M, Y, and O and even Sony, because of their higher cost due to their inherently lower purchase vol.

That does make sense.

Since they cannot compete with all the other brands at lower price, they have no choice but to try and keep the high-end image/price.

I don’t know if it would cost too much and hurt the overall revenue too much if D/M and Yamaha were to switch to Dirac plus 10-band PEQ. But if they could do this and still keep the prices lower than Anthem and the likes, I bet that would kill these so-called high-end brands.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

but if it sounds the best to you now then I guess you don't need such confirmation.

I think that’s the difference between an engineering mind and a non-engineering mind.

Medical minds: gotta wash hands a million times a day

Engineer minds: gotta take measurements a million times a day

 

[PENG]

That does make sense.

Since they cannot compete with all the other brands at lower price, they have no choice but to try and keep the high-end image/price.

I don’t know if it would cost too much and hurt the overall revenue too much if D/M and Yamaha were to switch to Dirac plus 10-band PEQ. But if they could do this and still keep the prices lower than Anthem and the likes, I bet that would kill these so-called high-end brands.

I think a better approach is to include the hardware and minimum software to make it a FW updgradable option so only those interested need to pay for the license.

 

[PENG]

I’m still surprised with how much Audyssey tried to increase the treble as much as +6dB.

Does this mean it takes a +6dB boost at 16kHz and +5dB boost at 8kHz to achieve a flatter on-axis FR for your speakers?

Here is the Stereophile on-axis of the 683s2.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-683-s2-loudspeaker-measurements

We can see that @ 2kHz, it is down -5dB. At 6kHz, it’s down -7dB. At 20kHz, it’s down -5dB.

So maybe that’s why Audyssey boosted the treble so much to make the on-axis FR closer to 0.0dB.

That's weird, I have never seen that kind of boost to any of my stuff.

 

[Ken32]

I’m still surprised with how much Audyssey tried to increase the treble as much as +6dB.

Does this mean it takes a +6dB boost at 16kHz and +5dB boost at 8kHz to achieve a flatter on-axis FR for your speakers?

Here is the Stereophile on-axis of the 683s2.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-683-s2-loudspeaker-measurements

We can see that @ 2kHz, it is down -5dB. At 6kHz, it’s down -7dB. At 20kHz, it’s down -5dB.

So maybe that’s why Audyssey boosted the treble so much to make the on-axis FR closer to 0.0dB.

Wow, They already sound lifeless across the board at 0. I couldn't imagine going in the negative that much more....

I boosted the mids and bass slightly and upped the treble a little more than both. Sounds better than how audyssey had it. After listening for quite some time with audyssey, fatigue started setting in. Reminded me of the time a salesman lead me to demo klipsch and the first 15 seconds in i walked away

@AcuDefTechGuy I strongly agree with you that the remote app is garbage. I've been trying all day today to stream siriusXM and it has cut out at least 15 times and stopped playing altogether. I know it isn't my connection. When i test it, it shows 53 meg steadily. Error messages have popped up stating "SR6013 has lost connection and isn't able to currently play" everything is wired to my router direct.

This is pretty aggravating. I've tried resetting my net to be sure and also cycling the receiver and see if it helped. NOPE! sure didn't. When i started the unit and tried to play it. Not only will the video not show on screen, but it won't play SXM for more than 20-30 seconds before it drops out.

If you say you've never had an issue with music cast dropping out, well. That's enough for me to make my mind up. This is frustrating.... Last night while me and the wife were watching Stranger Things, I kept seeing these red lines shoot the screen of my TV. Then audio would go out and not come back on until I'd restarted the unit. Less than a week and already issues...

 

[Ken32]

That's weird, I have never seen that kind of boost to any of my stuff.

I ran it in all 8 positions with a tripod at ear level. My room was dead silent. Even my old Onkyo with 3 position Audyssey didn't flex the eq that much.

 

[KEW]

If I monkey with it again, I’ll need to make notes of all the current settings because it’s very good right now.

Probably prudent to make those notes regardless! Sooner or later, something is likely to require an AVR reset or something, and you might not get the chance to take those notes!
Pics on phone of the setup screens is a fairly quick route!

 

[Verdinut]

I have a matched pair of subs but if I move them from one room to another, there’s no guarantee my long haired boss will allow them back in the living room. LOL

Then you just have to buy two more!

 

[PENG]

I’m still surprised with how much Audyssey tried to increase the treble as much as +6dB.

Does this mean it takes a +6dB boost at 16kHz and +5dB boost at 8kHz to achieve a flatter on-axis FR for your speakers?

Here is the Stereophile on-axis of the 683s2.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-683-s2-loudspeaker-measurements

We can see that @ 2kHz, it is down -5dB. At 6kHz, it’s down -7dB. At 20kHz, it’s down -5dB.

So maybe that’s why Audyssey boosted the treble so much to make the on-axis FR closer to 0.0dB.

I missed the link until I read you post again. Yes it looks like Audyssey might have legit reasons to make that much of a boost considering those speakers do seem to have some major dips in the 2 to 20 kHz range as shown in Stereophile's measurements. If D&M follows Audyssey's guidelines they probably could boost up to a maximum of 9 dB. Of course Stereophile's measurements are considered much more reliable because they are supposed to be comparable to measurements done in an anechoic chamber.

Imo, it is a must to spend $20 and get the Audyssey Editor App if one wants to use Audyssey but may not want Audyssey's default attempt to boost the highs of speakers that have serious dips.

There is nothing wrong to try and flatten/smooth the highs, experts are against that only because they believe the data obtained from measuring above the room transition frequency will not be reliable or meaningful, and correction made based on such data are not good, and may make things worse.

 

[snakeeyes]

Probably prudent to make those notes regardless! Sooner or later, something is likely to require an AVR reset or something, and you might not get the chance to take those notes!
Pics on phone of the setup screens is a fairly quick route!

It’s like opening Pandora’s box...

Mains full, center 80, sides 100, (Atmos not installed yet but tested it)
Front 3.1 all at 10.4 ft, sides at 3.8 ft
Levels zero except sub at +2.0dB
Parametric EQ Natural
Lipsync 43ms
Dynamic range Maximum
Treble 1.0dB
Bass 1.0d
YPAO volume Off
Adaptive DRC Off
Extra Bass Off
Enhancer On
Dialogue 3
Dialog lift 3
Sub trim 1.0dB

Sub gain knob at 3/4 and marked

 

[PENG]

It’s like opening Pandora’s box...

Mains full, center 80, sides 100, (Atmos not installed yet but tested it)
Front 3.1 all at 10.4 ft, sides at 3.8 ft
Levels zero except sub at +2.0dB
Parametric EQ Natural
Lipsync 43ms
Dynamic range Maximum
Treble 1.0dB
Bass 1.0d
YPAO volume Off
Adaptive DRC Off
Extra Bass Off
Enhancer On
Dialogue 3
Dialog lift 3
Sub trim 1.0dB

"Parametric EQ Natural"? That looks like just semi manual. Normally for parametric EQ one has to set the "Q" as well, not just the gain. Without measurements to reference to, imo using parametric EQ is very much a hit and miss thing and if go by ears, it would take forever to do it "right".

 

[PENG]

Found an interesting read. It was a case of manual EQ (parametric) using the XTZ analyzer Pro II to analyze the room, and miniDSP to implement, vs Audyssey XT32.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2012111audyssey-xt32-vs-parametric-eq-html/

The writer claimed the result was a wash, though you can see that Audyssey was clear superior if it wasn't the "suck out" he got just above 85 Hz. He was potentially biased, since he's promoting the XTZ analyzer and manual Parametric EQ/miniDSP as an alternative approach to Auto REQ. To me, that huge suck out, if created by XT32 as he alluded to, then it could be fixed or at least improved easily. That comparison was done in 2012, now with the Editor App, I am 100% sure that "suck out" he got with XT32 would not be an issue any more.

 

[photographer86]

I think it goes with saying how well they're made, the time put in from the the people that know what they're doing. Ever notice there is always one product of a line that really stands out! It's this product that had this and had that and was made right. The other part is marketing. People still need to research before they buy. Though us people they do our research before we buy a limiting in the world we live in now many are not educated on electronics, most people are happy with a iphone or media device in the busy world we have. Not many left like us here that maybe our parents showed us there stereo or come from a music background. Not many of us left that like to sit down to a cup of tea, beer, or beverage of choice and enjoy your favorite music. With all that said many brands are good. I think of those brand things are still made right and proper. I don't know how else to say it but you have to do some research. These forums are great for this! Someone has to have the mentality to go research. Or they may never know what is out there. So much has also gone to china. Sure in some of the top 4 brands the boards and such are made in china but quality control is done better? Things put in better. So many difference and yes the thread def opens up so much. When you know the basics to electronics, know the basics of music and audiophile stuff and not told wrong but right about different speaker wire and other market things it gets easier. So to new members and new people looking to really enjoy the music, read the right reviews by creditable people and do your research and ask questions. From then on you'll find the right products.

 

[KEW]

"Parametric EQ Natural"? That looks like just semi manual. Normally for parametric EQ one has to set the "Q" as well, not just the gain. Without measurements to reference to, imo using parametric EQ is very much a hit and miss thing and if go by ears, it would take forever to do it "right".

Glad you said that! I was thinking it and assuming that is why D&M is sticking with Graphic EQ; but wanted confirmation from someone who has been around the bock a few more times than I have (w.r.t. EQ systems)!
If you are using REW, the parametric is definitely superior, but for the normal bloke adjusting his system the graphic is much easier to use.
The majority of customers will never take measurements.

 

[KEW]

I think it goes with saying how well they're made, the time put in from the the people that know what they're doing. Ever notice there is always one product of a line that really stands out! It's this product that had this and had that and was made right. The other part is marketing. People still need to research before they buy. Though us people they do our research before we buy a limiting in the world we live in now many are not educated on electronics, most people are happy with a iphone or media device in the busy world we have. Not many left like us here that maybe our parents showed us there stereo or come from a music background. Not many of us left that like to sit down to a cup of tea, beer, or beverage of choice and enjoy your favorite music. With all that said many brands are good. I think of those brand things are still made right and proper. I don't know how else to say it but you have to do some research. These forums are great for this! Someone has to have the mentality to go research. Or they may never know what is out there. So much has also gone to china. Sure in some of the top 4 brands the boards and such are made in china but quality control is done better? Things put in better. So many difference and yes the thread def opens up so much. When you know the basics to electronics, know the basics of music and audiophile stuff and not told wrong but right about different speaker wire and other market things it gets easier. So to new members and new people looking to really enjoy the music, read the right reviews by creditable people and do your research and ask questions. From then on you'll find the right products.

Kind of in-line with what you are saying. Since you are asking questions here and listening, we will narrow down your options to good choices and it is for you to determine your best choice! Or maybe a better way of putting that is you don't have to worry about making a bad choice. You can decide what is important to you for selecting your best choice among the good choices!