Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[Ken32]

So what is missing in the sound now? The bass?

You're not using a subwoofer?

No subwoofer. Just my Towers and Sats. Audyssey is taking away sound quality from my music. When i copied the values to the EQ for adjusting it had set my values to the following. 0 being flat.

63Hz -2.0
125Hz -2.5
250Hz +2.5
500Hz -1.0
1kHz +0.5
2kHz +4.0
4kHz +3.5
8kHz +5.0
16kHz +6.0

No wonder it made music sound more alive and sparkly! It's overkill and when I was listening fatigue was setting in and that's when i decided to go in and check frequency bands. I made some adjustments and got it closer to where i wan't but no matter what, I can't get what I'm after.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Manual EQ may be fun, but in theory I can't see how it can be better than auto,

In terms of just getting the in-room response graph FLAT, I don't think manual EQ can beat a good auto EQ.

Where Parametric EQ can "beat" auto EQ is in how it allows the users to fine-tune their personal auditory-sensory preferences --- since we know that not everyone prefers a flat sound, especially in the 20Hz-100Hz bass region.

 

[Ken32]

Hmm. That’s disappointing. I’m thinking the Monitor Audio Silver center might be worth trying out. I’m also going to try KEF R series.

It was very disappointing. Especially since i had to drive 5 hours round trip to get them home. KEF R series is next on my list to try as well. Something about that concentric design that gives me the "I must have feeling!"

 

[ryanosaur]

This recent conversation here is exactly why I've been looking at mDSP and Dirac Live as a solution. Based on everything I can see, the DDRC88A/BM puts that control within reach and the only limiting factor in your set-up is the actual room layout and the channels you can assign through your AVR.
I don't think it is a golden bullet by any means, nor will it be right for everybody in every situation.
But consider that Poes and Shady have much higher opinions about Dirac than any of the other products on the market. You can dial in XOs to the number and slope you choose, so for my 25Hz Phil 3s, If I want to apply a LR4 slope starting only a half octave up at 32.5 Hz, I can.
Instead of buying a $4-5K AVP like the Monolith or Emo, plus all required amp channels (2x Monolithx7 =$3600 or 2x Emo XPA7 =$4200) you can take any of your favorite AVRs that meet your functionality requirements, and add in the necessary mDSP components and run... In my case, an SR6012 at $900, 5x Outlaw 2200 at $1500, and 2xDDRC88A/BM for $2000 and I'd be running at half the cost of those 2 AVP options plus their associated amps. I would not have the ability to assign channels how and where I choose, at least until such a time as I upgrade to another budget friendly AVR. A small price for not spending twice as much!

Regardless, considering the impact of the room and its own unique resonance/Schroeder Frequency on bass performance, then add in the complexities of different equipment including what drivers in what cabinet at what tuning at what roll-off slope... There's a reason even a $20 App doesn't always get it right.

FWIW, I did use the Marantz Graphic EQ to great effect by tuning out a small dip at 2K to tame some borderline fatigue inducing midrange brightness. I think the key is that you need to apply such things minimally and gently and they are not meant to look like the old school mid-'80s component equalizers that people would have maxed at the bass and treble and bottomed out in the mids. Frankly, that didn't work all that well then.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No subwoofer. Just my Towers and Sats. Audyssey is taking away sound quality from my music. When i copied the values to the EQ for adjusting it had set my values to the following. 0 being flat.

63Hz -2.0
125Hz -2.5
250Hz +2.5
500Hz -1.0
1kHz +0.5
2kHz +4.0
4kHz +3.5
8kHz +5.0
16kHz +6.0

No wonder it made music sound more alive and sparkly! It's overkill and when I was listening fatigue was setting in and that's when i decided to go in and check frequency bands. I made some adjustments and got it closer to where i wan't but no matter what, I can't get what I'm after.

Well, the Marantz doesn't have the Parametric EQ, but see what happens if you set all the frequencies from 250-16 kHz to 0.0dB and boost the 63Hz and 125Hz a few decibels to your preference (try 2dB, 3dB, etc.).

I assume that even with the basic graphic EQ, setting the Frequencies to 0.0dB is the same thing as BYPASSING the EQ for those frequencies.

I think the ONLY way you will find the sound you want --- which I assume is Dynamic Crystal Clear sound + Bass that is Punchy, Chest-Thumping, Bone-crunching --- is to add at least one high quality Subwoofer -- also assuming your towers can produce Dynamic Crystal Clear sound on their own without any kind of EQ.

 

[ryanosaur]

Hmm. That’s disappointing. I’m thinking the Monitor Audio Silver center might be worth trying out. I’m also going to try KEF R series.

KEF R series is next on my list to try as well.

I really enjoyed the MA Silver sound. Would love to hear your thoughts, Snake, if you get to play with that.
KEF R series sounded super nice... only heard the R900 towers... bright mids, though. the Uni-Q driver is cool, but not without it's drawbacks. I think it was Shady that said they should not be toed in at the LP, which made me wonder how the center would perform if you happen to be right in its path.

 

[Ken32]

Well, the Marantz doesn't have the Parametric EQ, but see what happens if you set all the frequencies from 250-16 kHz to 0.0dB and boost the 63Hz and 125Hz a few decibels to your preference (try 2dB, 3dB, etc.).

I assume that even with the basic graphic EQ, setting the Frequencies to 0.0dB is the same thing as BYPASSING the EQ for those frequencies.

I think the ONLY way you will find the sound you want --- which I assume is Dynamic Crystal Clear sound + Bass that is Punchy, Chest-Thumping, Bone-crunching --- is to add at least one high quality Subwoofer -- also assuming your towers can produce Dynamic Crystal Clear sound on their own without any kind of EQ.

I've tried that yesterday setting the eq flat entails no difference between it and Direct mode. My bass is great. these towers cover that well (not subwoofer well) but they hold their own. I actually had to use the bungs in the port hole to dumb them down. They sounded too boomy and less controlled without them.

So far i adjusted the eq down as follows,

63 +1.5
125 +2.5
500 -1.0
1 +0.5
2 +2
4 +1.5
8 +2
16 +3

So far I like i better than before but cannot help to think it could be adjusted elsewhere but with the graphic eq it's just limited.

I plan on ordering the Yamaha A1080 and trying to adjust EQ using their parametric style and see if it makes a difference. At least from what I've read, that style seems to choice by many.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

mDSP and Dirac Live... 2xDDRC88A/BM for $2000

Maybe Sound United will go bold and put Dirac + Parametric EQ in all their flagship units that retail $2K or more.

I was looking at the Bryston SP4 pre-pro, which is probably over $10K. But it seems an awful lot like the DataSat/ATI/Monolith pre-pros with Dirac + Parametric EQ and mainly HDMI and XLR Inputs/Outputs.

 

[ryanosaur]

Maybe Sound United will go bold and put Dirac + Parametric EQ in all their flagship units that retail $2K or more.

I was looking at the Bryston SP4 pre-pro, which is probably over $10K. But it seems an awful lot like the DataSat/ATI/Monolith pre-pros with Dirac + Parametric EQ and mainly HDMI and XLR Inputs/Outputs.

Not eager to drop 2K (1909+shipping) more for two of those units (necessary for 11 channels and 3 subs!), but there is nothing wrong with my SR6012. My biggest complaint is Bass management protocols and the channel assignability. If I could set up 5.x.6 as my 11 channels I'd be stoked just for the flexibility.
An AVR offering those features with assignable Amps that can keep up with external front Amps would be great. I don't really want separates (except for the mental masturbatory enjoyment or brag-ability of it , no thanks).
That would be the great equalizer for me... external room correction and Bass Managemnet. Take Audyssey and YPAO and MCACC and ARC and jam it!

I was looking at the Bryston SP4 pre-pro, which is probably over $10K. But it seems an awful lot like the DataSat/ATI/Monolith pre-pros with Dirac + Parametric EQ and mainly HDMI and XLR Inputs/Outputs.

*sighs
Would be nice to play with a $10K pre-pro. If I walk into the local shoppe, they start following you. You reach out to touch something and I think they slap your hand. But that also begs the question... does a $10K AVP work with $300/channel amplification? Seems like you need at least $700 per channel amplification. There's a reason us Proles aren't allowed into the Bourg-y parties!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not eager to drop 2K (1909+shipping) more for two of those units

How do you hook up those external Dirac units?

Do you connect the AVR Pre-outs to the Dirac Inputs and then from the Dirac Pre-outs to the Amp?

 

[snakeeyes]

The dsp units are up to 8 inputs only I think.

 

[ryanosaur]

The dsp units are up to 8 inputs only I think.

Yes, you would need two for a full atmos system. I think there is a way to do the 2x4 hd to manage the subs and still utilize the Dirac Live BM module. Assuming you aren't exceeding 7 channels for your speakers that is.

 

[snakeeyes]

Yes, you would need two for a full atmos system. I think there is a way to do the 2x4 hd to manage the subs and still utilize the Dirac Live BM module. Assuming you aren't exceeding 7 channels for your speakers that is.

Does Dirac do much for the overhead speakers?

 

[ryanosaur]

Does Dirac do much for the overhead speakers?

Might not be necessary, true. The speakers I have are all capable well into the resonance of my room, though, those AAs often get tagged as Large by Audyssey for example. At the point I may be tuning and managing all the little details that Dirac allows for, it feels amiss to not be able to tweak and control everything.
Hell, I might not even go there, but for now... it's a strong consideration.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

In terms of which is best: D/M, Yamaha, or Anthem; each has it's own proprietary method of auto EQ (Audyssey, YPAO, ARC) which appear to approach a problem similarly, getting the system to sound good in any environment. The only difference I see is D/M & Yamaha has a range of product in the roughly $300 to thousand dollar range, whereas Anthem starts in the thousands.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Does Dirac do much for the overhead speakers?

Excellent point. Why care to EQ the ceiling speakers and even rear surround speakers?

If I care to EQ at all, it would just be the main front 3 speakers (maybe 2 surround if available) and subs. So the 8-Input Dirac would enough.

 

[PENG]

I have a matched pair of subs but if I move them from one room to another, there’s no guarantee my long haired boss will allow them back in the living room. LOL

But are you not interested in seeing the FRs comparing towers+subwoofer(s) with different XO? What I am saying is, if your towers has FR down low, chances are greater that they would actually work against the sub (against each other) instead of helping in an overall sense, i.e. less smooth, clear, and "musical". It may go the other for sure depending on your setup in your room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In terms of which is best: D/M, Yamaha, or Anthem; each has it's own proprietary method of auto EQ (Audyssey, YPAO, ARC) which appear to approach a problem similarly, getting the system to sound good in any environment.

Yeah, I guess they do try to make every system “sound better” in any environment, but not everyone thinks they succeed.

I would say their goal is to get a FLAT in-Room ON-AXIS frequency response. And I think they do succeed here because they can easily measure and show you the flat on-axis graph.

But does this flat On-axis FR graph alone equate to better sound?

1. Since the off-axis FR is also important, do we even know exactly what these Auto REQ do to the off-axis? What if they screw up the off-axis somehow for certain environments and we don’t know it because they don’t measure the off-axis?

2. Not everyone prefers the sound of a flat IN-ROOM on-axis FR in certain environments, which is NOT the same as a flat ANECHOIC on-axis FR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The only difference I see is D/M & Yamaha has a range of product in the roughly $300 to thousand dollar range, whereas Anthem starts in the thousands.

Well, if Anthem lowered their prices to match Yamaha/DM, then people would no longer think they sound better than Yamaha, D/M.

A lot of people think more money = better sound. They have to keep their high-end image since image is everything.

 

[PENG]

Well, if Anthem lowered their prices to match Yamaha/DM, then people would no longer think they sound better than Yamaha, D/M.

A lot of people think more money = better sound. They have to keep their high-end image since image is everything.

Is human psychology a compulsory course for you guys?