Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[Ken32]

Hi, I plan on buying speakers + a receiver sometime this year. Currently in the process of demoing some speakers, and so far was really impressed by the Revel Concerta2 F36. But will be demoing more speakers in the coming months (in no rush to buy anything).

Anyway, as far as receivers are concerned, it'll probably come down to Yamaha (probably A1080/A2080) or Denon (X3500/X4500). I keep hearing people referring to Yamaha's as sounding bright, and Denons as sounding warm. How big of a difference is there really? Shouldn't they essentially sound the same (ignoring any DSP that may be turned on)?

I'll mainly be using two full size towers, maybe add a center speaker at some point, but probably no sub and no rear speakers (so will be a 2.0/3.0 setup most likely). Will be primarily for listening to music, secondarily movies/tv (yeah I could just get a 2 channel amp and be done, but I like the additional features that a receiver provides in an all-in-one package, such as streaming capabilities, HDMI inputs, etc.).

I know that Audyssey XT32 is considered very good. How far along has YPAO come from Yamaha? The room I'll be setting things up in is far from ideal, but it's the space I have for it. One speaker will be in a corner (wall behind and to the side),and another will just have a wall right behind it, but otherwise fairly open to the sides.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

I've spent countless time with AVR testing with Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Mcintosh. and i like them all except mcintosh. I don't feel they're worth 7,000 dollars by a long shot. I've got an 11 year old Onkyo that still works great. I've had a newer Denon x4400h that i sent back to keep my Onkyo RZ820 which I loved. They sounded the exact same, so i sent the Denon back to save 300 bucks at the time. I currently have a Marantz SR 6013 and I absolutely love it.

I cannot comment on Yamaha Aventage, places I've been to didn't carry them or they did but didn't have any stocked.

EQ {YPAO, Audyssey, Dirac, ARC etc...) are all subjective. Some work better for others based on room size, placement, furniture, acoustics, etc... I don't use Auto EQ at all (not everyone uses it). I measure my distances and use an SPL meter to measure each speaker sound level to match them. I mostly use Direct/Pure direct. However; with my new Marantz, I use manual EQ and i Prefer it over Direct listening mode, as does the wife.

My opinion, you cannot go wrong with any of them. I personally wouldn't spend more than 800-1000 on an AVR. Some would say less, some would say more. Again, subjective.

Look at {accessories 4 less} for refurb units, some units are half what new costs. Most of the time you can also get free 3 year warranty and free shipping. I ordered my Marantz from there this past Sunday for 799 {originally 1600) with free shipping and 3 year manufacturer warranty. It shipped Monday, I had it Wednesday (fed ex). Everything is flawless on the unit. Not a mark, scuff or scratch anywhere. It's awesome. The only issue i have is the remote. The buttons ( I have to smash them to work it) Marantz is sending me a brand new one no questions asked.

Don't buy a unit based on Auto EQ. Look for Price/Performance aspects. As far as that goes, look for which features are important to you, what you need, what you'll use and what you won't. Compare the features with other competitors and what their price is and choose.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I’ve spent a large amount of time with receivers other than the AVENTAGE series of Yamaha.

My current is a Marantz SR6013 and i absolutely love it.

Anyway, as far as receivers are concerned, it'll probably come down to Yamaha (probably A1080/A2080) or Denon (X3500/X4500). I keep hearing people referring to Yamaha's as sounding bright, and Denons as sounding warm. How big of a difference is there really? Shouldn't they essentially sound the same (ignoring any DSP that may be turned on)?

I'll mainly be using two full size towers, maybe add a center speaker at some point, but probably no sub and no rear speakers (so will be a 2.0/3.0 setup most likely). Will be primarily for listening to music, secondarily movies/tv (yeah I could just get a 2 channel amp and be done, but I like the additional features that a receiver provides in an all-in-one package, such as streaming capabilities, HDMI inputs, etc.).

I know that Audyssey XT32 is considered very good. How far along has YPAO come from Yamaha? The room I'll be setting things up in is far from ideal, but it's the space I have for it. One speaker will be in a corner (wall behind and to the side),and another will just have a wall right behind it, but otherwise fairly open to the sides.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

I've spent countless time with AVR testing with Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Mcintosh. and i like them all except mcintosh. I don't feel they're worth 7,000 dollars by a long shot. I've got an 11 year old Onkyo that still works great. I've had a newer Denon x4400h that i sent back to keep my Onkyo RZ820 which I loved. They sounded the exact same, so i sent the Denon back to save 300 bucks at the time. I currently have a Marantz SR 6013 and I absolutely love it.

I cannot comment on Yamaha Aventage, places I've been to didn't carry them or they did but didn't have any stocked.

EQ {YPAO, Audyssey, Dirac, ARC etc...) are all subjective. Some work better for others based on room size, placement, furniture, acoustics, etc... I don't use Auto EQ at all (not everyone uses it). I measure my distances and use an SPL meter to measure each speaker sound level to match them. I mostly use Direct/Pure direct. However; with my new Marantz, I use manual EQ and i Prefer it over Direct listening mode.

My opinion, you cannot go wrong with any of them. I personally wouldn't spend more than 800-1000 on an AVR. Some would say less, some would say more. Again, subjective.

Look at {accessories 4 less} for refurb units, some units are half what new costs. Most of the time you can also get free 3 year warranty and free shipping. I ordered my Marantz from there this past Sunday for 799 {originally 1600) with free shipping and 3 year manufacturer warranty. It shipped Monday, I had it Wednesday (fed ex). Everything is flawless on the unit. Not a mark, scuff or scratch anywhere. It's awesome. The only issue i have is the remote. The buttons ( I have to smash them to work it) Marantz is sending me a brand new one no questions asked.

Don't buy a unit based on Auto EQ. Look for Price/Performance aspects. As far as that goes, look for which features are important to you, what you need, what you'll use and what you won't. Compare the features with other competitors and what their price is and choose.[/QUOTE]

Hey Ken, glad you’re enjoying your Marantz! FWIW, I had a similar thing with my remote too. I didn’t find I needed to smash them, but it just seems to take longer for the unit to respond. The Onkyo it replaced was responsive as lightning, so it took a little getting used to. The pioneer in my bedroom is somewhere in between. Curious how the new remote is.

 

[Ken32]

Hey Ken, glad you’re enjoying your Marantz! FWIW, I had a similar thing with my remote too. I didn’t find I needed to smash them, but it just seems to take longer for the unit to respond. The Onkyo it replaced was responsive as lightning, so it took a little getting used to. The pioneer in my bedroom is somewhere in between. Curious how the new remote is.

I thought that it was the unit itself at first. I then noticed when i was pushing buttons on the remote the main button located top left wasn't lighting up until i literally mashed the buttons. Otherwise, the unit is self is pretty responsive. Especially if i use the HEOS app/iphone remote app. So far, I feel like this is going to be a keeper. Unless something drastic happens.

I should get the new remote this week some time. We'll see how that goes when i get it.

 

[hemiram]

The remotes on my Yamaha receivers, going back to the first AVR, and I can't remember the model # anymore, have been the weak link. A backlight wouldn't have killed them to put in, at least a useful one, and I don't know why audio companies seem to almost all make remotes in the long skinny format. A tablet format, with different colored buttons would have been great, but that buck or two more is a no no. The Yamaha receivers generally sounded fine, IMHO, maybe a touch brighter than friend's Denon, Onkyo, or Marantz AVRs did/do, but they didn't fatigue me, which comes from speakers mostly, and none of them really had any quality related issues, unlike other brands friends had. I found out the meaning of fatigue when I bought a pair of Q Acoustics 3020 speakers when I moved into my apartment. In a showroom, I liked them. They annoyed the hell out of me to the point I decided to go around to friend's places and listed to music and movies I knew well, and the Polk LSiM703's I have 2 pairs of now made it to a short list, and when I found a deal on them, I grabbed up 2 pairs and I have no complaints about them. They aren't perfect, but they don't annoy me, as the 3020's did, and many other speakers have over the years. Laid back is kind of my thing with speakers. The Polks are like that, with very good bass for the size and they don't have a hole in the upper bass like the 3020's do. That I got them new and cheap is a bonus.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hi, I plan on buying speakers + a receiver sometime this year. Currently in the process of demoing some speakers, and so far was really impressed by the Revel Concerta2 F36. But will be demoing more speakers in the coming months (in no rush to buy anything).

Anyway, as far as receivers are concerned, it'll probably come down to Yamaha (probably A1080/A2080) or Denon (X3500/X4500). I keep hearing people referring to Yamaha's as sounding bright, and Denons as sounding warm. How big of a difference is there really? Shouldn't they essentially sound the same (ignoring any DSP that may be turned on)?

I'll mainly be using two full size towers, maybe add a center speaker at some point, but probably no sub and no rear speakers (so will be a 2.0/3.0 setup most likely). Will be primarily for listening to music, secondarily movies/tv (yeah I could just get a 2 channel amp and be done, but I like the additional features that a receiver provides in an all-in-one package, such as streaming capabilities, HDMI inputs, etc.).

I know that Audyssey XT32 is considered very good. How far along has YPAO come from Yamaha? The room I'll be setting things up in is far from ideal, but it's the space I have for it. One speaker will be in a corner (wall behind and to the side), and another will just have a wall right behind it, but otherwise fairly open to the sides.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

They do sound the same when not using any kind of EQ (Auto Room EQ, Manual EQ) or DSP. Don’t believe otherwise.

I used Denon for a long time (AVP-A1HDCI, AVR-5308CI, and mostly the AVR-3xxx and X3xxx series).

Now I use Yamaha (CX-A5100, MX-A5000).

I think if you are only using Auto EQ (not into manual EQ), then Audyssey XT32 is better than YPAO.

If you are into manual EQ (instead of auto EQ), then Yamaha has the advantage because of the nice 7-band Parametric EQ. Denon/Marantz manual Graphic EQ is useless.

Gene uses the Yamaha YPAO, then uses the Yamaha Parametric EQ to fine tune.

I only use the Parametric EQ to fine tune the bass below 100Hz since I don’t believe in messing with the EQ of anything above 100Hz frequencies.

Yamaha operates cooler in temp than Denon/Marantz. So definitely get an external fan for Denon, but probably good idea to get fans for everything.

Yamaha is supposed to be more reliable and more HDMI-compatible than D/M, according to our local insider guru (M Code).

But in terms of pure Auto EQ, I think Audyssey XT32 is better than YPAO.

 

[PENG]

Hi, I plan on buying speakers + a receiver sometime this year. Currently in the process of demoing some speakers, and so far was really impressed by the Revel Concerta2 F36. But will be demoing more speakers in the coming months (in no rush to buy anything).

Anyway, as far as receivers are concerned, it'll probably come down to Yamaha (probably A1080/A2080) or Denon (X3500/X4500). I keep hearing people referring to Yamaha's as sounding bright, and Denons as sounding warm. How big of a difference is there really? Shouldn't they essentially sound the same (ignoring any DSP that may be turned on)?

I'll mainly be using two full size towers, maybe add a center speaker at some point, but probably no sub and no rear speakers (so will be a 2.0/3.0 setup most likely). Will be primarily for listening to music, secondarily movies/tv (yeah I could just get a 2 channel amp and be done, but I like the additional features that a receiver provides in an all-in-one package, such as streaming capabilities, HDMI inputs, etc.).

I know that Audyssey XT32 is considered very good. How far along has YPAO come from Yamaha? The room I'll be setting things up in is far from ideal, but it's the space I have for it. One speaker will be in a corner (wall behind and to the side),and another will just have a wall right behind it, but otherwise fairly open to the sides.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

Speaker choice is much more important so I hope you will take all the time you need to choose the right one. For AVR, imo it is a good idea to avoid the A1080 and stick with either the A2080 or X4500H/SR7013. They all are better fit to you potentially 4 ohm rated Revel speakers and if not, they both have pre outs for external power amps. Denon/Marantz would be better if you intend to go beyond 9 discrete channels (Atmos, Auro 3D),the Yamaha may win in terms of reliability and likely have more dynamic output power, though we all know you need double the power output just to gain 3 dB of sound pressure level.

If you prefer the looks of the Marantz, then the SR7013 is the equivalent, same schematics, same audio electronic parts, Marantz, from the SR(5013 and up, but not the slim line series) do have an extra buffer stage (in between the pre out and power amp in) they refer to as HDAM. Sound quality between those two will not be audible, but people do hear differences because it is really hard to compare two units properly, even if side by side at home, so the perceived/claimed audible differences are often driven by the well known Placebo effects and/or expectation bias. For example, Marantz fans will think HDAM makes the better difference, Denon fans may feel simplicity is better, more parts more distortion, more variability etc. etc.. The fact is, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, all measured very well on various lab benches historically and the audio specs of the X4500H and SR7013 are even identical.

 

[sakete]

They do sound the same when not using any kind of EQ (Auto Room EQ, Manual EQ) or DSP. Don’t believe otherwise.

I used Denon for a long time (AVP-A1HDCI, AVR-5308CI, and mostly the AVR-3xxx and X3xxx series).

Now I use Yamaha (CX-A5100, MX-A5000).

I think if you are only using Auto EQ (not into manual EQ), then Audyssey XT32 is better than YPAO.

If you are into manual EQ (instead of auto EQ), then Yamaha has the advantage because of the nice 7-band Parametric EQ. Denon/Marantz manual Graphic EQ is useless.

Gene uses the Yamaha YPAO, then uses the Yamaha Parametric EQ to fine tune.

I only use the Parametric EQ to fine tune the bass below 100Hz since I don’t believe in messing with the EQ of anything above 100Hz frequencies.

Yamaha operates cooler in temp than Denon/Marantz. So definitely get an external fan for Denon, but probably good idea to get fans for everything.

Yamaha is supposed to be more reliable and more HDMI-compatible than D/M, according to our local insider guru (M Code).

But in terms of pure Auto EQ, I think Audyssey XT32 is better than YPAO.

I don't mind doing a bit of fine tuning to get it just right, and I like the peace of mind of knowing Yamaha is more reliable. Also had a Yamaha in the past (RX-V 600 series) and it always ran quite cool which to me always seems like a sign of good design.

Probably leaning towards Yamaha at this point.

 

[sakete]

Speaker choice is much more important so I hope you will take all the time you need to choose the right one. For AVR, imo it is a good idea to avoid the A1080 and stick with either the A2080 or X4500H/SR7013. They all are better fit to you potentially 4 ohm rated Revel speakers and if not, they both have pre outs for external power amps. Denon/Marantz would be better if you intend to go beyond 9 discrete channels (Atmos, Auro 3D),the Yamaha may win in terms of reliability and likely have more dynamic output power, though we all know you need double the power output just to gain 3 dB of sound pressure level.

If you prefer the looks of the Marantz, then the SR7013 is the equivalent, same schematics, same audio electronic parts, Marantz, from the SR(5013 and up, but not the slim line series) do have an extra buffer stage (in between the pre out and power amp in) they refer to as HDAM. Sound quality between those two will not be audible, but people do hear differences because it is really hard to compare two units properly, even if side by side at home, so the perceived/claimed audible differences are often driven by the well known Placebo effects and/or expectation bias. For example, Marantz fans will think HDAM makes the better difference, Denon fans may feel simplicity is better, more parts more distortion, more variability etc. etc.. The fact is, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, all measured very well on various lab benches historically and the audio specs of the X4500H and SR7013 are even identical.

Yeah I was wondering if I should go with a more powerful receiver in case I end up getting hard to drive speakers. At this point I'm leaning towards Yamaha because of the better overall reliability, though in testing I see that for whatever reason at comparable loads, Denons tend to put out more power than Yamaha.

I could pick up a Yamaha A2070 for 800 on A4L, or Denon X5200 for 800 as well (x4400 for 750). I don't like the look of Marantz at all

 

[PENG]

Yeah I was wondering if I should go with a more powerful receiver in case I end up getting hard to drive speakers. At this point I'm leaning towards Yamaha because of the better overall reliability, though in testing I see that for whatever reason at comparable loads, Denons tend to put out more power than Yamaha.

I could pick up a Yamaha A2070 for 800 on A4L, or Denon X5200 for 800 as well (x4400 for 750). I don't like the look of Marantz at all

Denon/Marantz typically only tested better in 5 and 7 channel driven tests, so most likely due to their different approach in their protective schemes.

The RX-A2080 actually tested much better than the RX-A3080 in 5 and 7 channel driven tests, and better than the X4400H and SR7013 as well. I don't know if that is some sort of aberration/one off, or a sign that Yamaha may be finally coming around, to go less aggressive on the protection settings.

I thought most people prefer the Marantz look, if you don't then sure, save a few hundred dollars going Denon. If you can wait a few months, I think the X4500H at $799 to even $899 would be the best deal of the year, why settle for refurbished (again, I mean if you can wait). To me, from the X3400H, SR6012, RX-A1080 and up, SQ is not an issue at all. I know because I have compared some of them meticulously and critically to my separates.

 

[sakete]

Denon/Marantz typically only tested better in 5 and 7 channel driven tests, so most likely due to their different approach in their protective schemes.

The RX-A2080 actually tested much better than the RX-A3080 in 5 and 7 channel driven tests, and better than the X4400H and SR7013 as well. I don't know if that is some sort of aberration/one off, or a sign that Yamaha may be finally coming around, to go less aggressive on the protection settings.

I thought most people prefer the Marantz look, if you don't then sure, save a few hundred dollars going Denon. If you can wait a few months, I think the X4500H at $799 to even $899 would be the best deal of the year, why settle for refurbished (again, I mean if you can wait). To me, from the X3400H, SR6012, RX-A1080 and up, SQ is not an issue at all. I know because I have compared some of them meticulously and critically to my separates.

Yeah I can probably wait, am in no hurry. Also have a newborn at home so right now I wouldn't get that much enjoyment out if it anyway

So x4500 or A2080? You said the A2080 tested much better than A3080? Did you mean better than A2070?

 

[KEW]

I could pick up a Yamaha A2070 for 800 on A4L, or Denon X5200 for 800 as well (x4400 for 750). I don't like the look of Marantz at all

One thing to consider relative to the Denon 5200 is it predates the Denon/Marantz Audyssey app. Personally, I think this app is a game changer because it allows a level of control over Audyssey that was not previously an option.
For example you can use the app (which costs $20 through playstore) to only apply Audyssey at 300Hz and below so as to correct the bass room effects and leave the upper frequencies alone!

 

[PENG]

Yeah I can probably wait, am in no hurry. Also have a newborn at home so right now I wouldn't get that much enjoyment out if it anyway

So x4500 or A2080? You said the A2080 tested much better than A3080? Did you mean better than A2070?

I meant better than the 3080, in 5 and 7 ch driven tests only, by Audiovision.de.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't mind doing a bit of fine tuning to get it just right, and I like the peace of mind of knowing Yamaha is more reliable. Also had a Yamaha in the past (RX-V 600 series) and it always ran quite cool which to me always seems like a sign of good design.

Probably leaning towards Yamaha at this point.

I can elaborate on the coolness temp operation.

Every single Denon I've owned operates really hot after a few hours of use, including the $7,500 AVP-A1HDCI and $5,500 AVR-5308CI. These things get hot enough that I personally wouldn't touch the top rear of the chassis any more than a split second.

Both the Yamaha CX-A5100 and MX-A5000 I have now operate very cool after a whole day of watching movies. I mean literally cool to the touch. Not warm to the touch, but actually cool.

Now you could add 2 x 120mm fans atop the Denon to cool the AVR.

For example, if I don't use 2 x 120mm fans atop my Denon X3100, it will SHUT DOWN after I sing 3 Karaoke songs (as well as I sing ).

With the 2 x 120mm fans, the Denon still gets warm, but it doesn't shut down at all.

 

[Ken32]

I can elaborate on the coolness temp operation.

Every single Denon I've owned operates really hot after a few hours of use, including the $7,500 AVP-A1HDCI and $5,500 AVR-5308CI. These things get hot enough that I personally wouldn't touch the top rear of the chassis any more than a split second.

Both the Yamaha CX-A5100 and MX-A5000 I have now operate very cool after a whole day of watching movies. I mean literally cool to the touch. Not warm to the touch, but actually cool.

Now you could add 2 x 120mm fans atop the Denon to cool the AVR.

For example, if I don't use 2 x 120mm fans atop my Denon X3100, it will SHUT DOWN after I sing 3 Karaoke songs (as well as I sing ).

With the 2 x 120mm fans, the Denon still gets warm, but it doesn't shut down at all.

I’ve ran that Marantz of mine yesterday at moderate levels listening to SiriusXM and when i placed my hand on top it was very warm. But it was never hot.

 

[PENG]

Also had a Yamaha in the past (RX-V 600 series) and it always ran quite cool which to me always seems like a sign of good design.

Probably leaning towards Yamaha at this point.

Yamaha and Denon's amps are both class AB so if Yamaha's comparable models run much cooler, it could mean they used lower bias current; and while that improves efficiency, thereby reducing heat production, it could also result in a little more crossover distortions. As ADTG mentioned, the heat issue can be solved by an external fan. I have one $10 fan on top of each, but many prefer to have two. They do have internal fans, but won't turn on until the unit gets really warm, obviously they are there for protection within the 3 year warranty period, not for longevity.

 

[sakete]

I can elaborate on the coolness temp operation.

Every single Denon I've owned operates really hot after a few hours of use, including the $7,500 AVP-A1HDCI and $5,500 AVR-5308CI. These things get hot enough that I personally wouldn't touch the top rear of the chassis any more than a split second.

Both the Yamaha CX-A5100 and MX-A5000 I have now operate very cool after a whole day of watching movies. I mean literally cool to the touch. Not warm to the touch, but actually cool.

Now you could add 2 x 120mm fans atop the Denon to cool the AVR.

For example, if I don't use 2 x 120mm fans atop my Denon X3100, it will SHUT DOWN after I sing 3 Karaoke songs (as well as I sing ).

With the 2 x 120mm fans, the Denon still gets warm, but it doesn't shut down at all.

You're sure it's shutting down because of heat, and not just protesting your singing?

Honestly, to me that makes me lean more and more towards the Yamaha. I don't want to have a bunch of fans in my living room, too noisy.

 

[sakete]

Yamaha and Denon's amps are both class AB so if Yamaha's comparable models run much cooler, it could mean they used lower bias current; and while that improves efficiency, thereby reducing heat production, it could also result in a little more crossover distortions. As ADTG mentioned, the heat issue can be solved by an external fan. I have one $10 fan on top of each, but many prefer to have two. They do have internal fans, but won't turn on until the unit gets really warm, obviously they are there for protection within the 3 year warranty period, not for longevity.

I wonder if there is a way to verify your hypothesis of lower bias current in the Yamaha.

 

[snakeeyes]

Go for the RXA2070. I really like my 2060.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have one $10 fan on top of each, but many prefer to have two.

One is such a lonely number. You gotta have two.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I’ve ran that Marantz of mine yesterday at moderate levels listening to SiriusXM and when i placed my hand on top it was very warm. But it was never hot.

Regarding the temperature-touch-sensitivity, I bet we all have different thermo-receptors and different temperature sensitivities.

Just get 2 x 120mm fans and you should be okay.