Wireless vs. Cables

Barron

Barron

Enthusiast
With the emerging trend of wireless compatible AVRs, speakers, and subwoofers (and whatever else) I am questioning does wireless vs. cables have performance differences. With cables we have to mainly be worried about the insertion loss/resistance. But what are the concerns with wireless speakers and subwoofers receiving the RF transmission from the AVR? (right I do believe wireless transmission are radio waves? correct me if I'm wrong or expand if you know more about the physics)

These are the questions I have:
1. Wireless transmission is an RF signal i.e. radio frequency waves. Correct? [need to be sure to kick off the discussion correctly]

2. Do radio waves cause distortion to sound waves? Or vice versa? [which would impact the full system performance]

3. Radio waves are multi-directional , correct? Please expand. If yes, then because it's not a straight transmission to the wireless speaker or sub is this "multi-direction" the variable that can be compared to resistance in cables?

4. Do speakers & subs perform any different if operated wirelessly vs. with Cables? For discussion sake use an apples to apples comparison with the only difference the obvious one. (i.e. same speaker, same AVR)

I'm building my first home theater system. Mainly for music but of course movies too. Here are the items I have coming in the mail now. If you want to suggest what to buy for surrounds, center, atmos ceiling, and also amp & speakers for zone 2 that'd be cool ;). (maybe wireless to use multicast ). If not that's cool too I've been reading up on a lot of forums and articles on this site, so I'll figure it out eventually. ~1500 ft^3

Yamaha RX-A1080 AVR
Klipsch RP-8000F
14-4 Monoprice cable (100')
(Potentially) RSL speedwoofer 10s [x2]
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
1. Wireless transmission is an RF signal i.e. radio frequency waves. Correct? [need to be sure to kick off the discussion correctly]
Correct.


2. Do radio waves cause distortion to sound waves? Or vice versa? [which would impact the full system performance]
Hard to know what you mean by that. Soundwaves are produced by a speaker – it’s what you hear. RF does not affect that. If you mean “does the conversion of audio signals to RF cause distortion,” the answer is yes.


3. Radio waves are multi-directional , correct? Please expand. If yes, then because it's not a straight transmission to the wireless speaker or sub is this "multi-direction" the variable that can be compared to resistance in cables?
RF transmission is omnidirectional, yes. That’s why you can typically put the receiver anywhere. RF reception, however, is not.

Cable resistance is a non-issue for all intent and purposes, as long as the proper cable is used for the application and situation. Wireless – not so much.


4. Do speakers & subs perform any different if operated wirelessly vs. with Cables? For discussion sake use an apples to apples comparison with the only difference the obvious one. (i.e. same speaker, same AVR)
Any wireless system will increase background noise and distortion. Whether or not it’s audible will depend on the application. For instance, neither of those will affect a sub application. Increased noise could be an issue with highly-efficient speakers, but probably not with lesser-efficient speakers.

Wireless has other potential issues, such as drop-outs, etc. IMO, it’s oversold.

More bad news here.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
With the emerging trend of wireless compatible AVRs, speakers, and subwoofers (and whatever else) I am questioning does wireless vs. cables have performance differences. With cables we have to mainly be worried about the insertion loss/resistance. But what are the concerns with wireless speakers and subwoofers receiving the RF transmission from the AVR? (right I do believe wireless transmission are radio waves? correct me if I'm wrong or expand if you know more about the physics)

These are the questions I have:
1. Wireless transmission is an RF signal i.e. radio frequency waves. Correct? [need to be sure to kick off the discussion correctly]

2. Do radio waves cause distortion to sound waves? Or vice versa? [which would impact the full system performance]

3. Radio waves are multi-directional , correct? Please expand. If yes, then because it's not a straight transmission to the wireless speaker or sub is this "multi-direction" the variable that can be compared to resistance in cables?

4. Do speakers & subs perform any different if operated wirelessly vs. with Cables? For discussion sake use an apples to apples comparison with the only difference the obvious one. (i.e. same speaker, same AVR)

I'm building my first home theater system. Mainly for music but of course movies too. Here are the items I have coming in the mail now. If you want to suggest what to buy for surrounds, center, atmos ceiling, and also amp & speakers for zone 2 that'd be cool ;). (maybe wireless to use multicast ). If not that's cool too I've been reading up on a lot of forums and articles on this site, so I'll figure it out eventually. ~1500 ft^3

Yamaha RX-A1080 AVR
Klipsch RP-8000F
14-4 Monoprice cable (100')
(Potentially) RSL speedwoofer 10s [x2]
I wouldn't try to use wireless as the go-to medium for anything unless it's between a smart phone/tablet and something that can use Airplay or Bluetooth to receive audio or for mirroring video with a good app. For speakers/subs/signal, hard-wired is the way to go. Yes, there are ways to transmit audio wirelessly to an amplifier but nobody will see it as 'affordable' for a home.

The one thing I would recommend most strongly- install some kind of conduit with gentle bends for the HDMI that carries the signal from the AVR to the display- you'll be hating life if you don't.
 
Barron

Barron

Enthusiast
Hard to know what you mean by that. Soundwaves are produced by a speaker – it’s what you hear. RF does not affect that. If you mean “does the conversion of audio signals to RF cause distortion,” the answer is yes.

Wayne A. Pflughaupt
I quite literally meant do soundwaves and radio waves bang into each other in a room and cause the waves to spontaneously change direction. Like a car crash but not as extreme. This just displays my ignorance in how different wave types interact. Your point about the conversion is a well appreciated point. I didn't think of that.


Any wireless system will increase background noise and distortion. Whether or not it’s audible will depend on the application. For instance, neither of those will affect a sub application. Increased noise could be an issue with highly-efficient speakers, but probably not with lesser-efficient speakers.

Wireless has other potential issues, such as drop-outs, etc. IMO, it’s oversold.

More bad news here.

Wayne A. Pflughaupt
This is the type of response I was hunting for. I didn't even think of drop-outs. What are the etcs? I'm interested in a full list of justifiable reasons why not to choose wireless. Right now I'm not convinced to go wireless regardless but will monitor these reasons over the years to witness the inflection point and maybe try wireless then.
 
Barron

Barron

Enthusiast
I wouldn't try to use wireless as the go-to medium for anything unless it's between a smart phone/tablet and something that can use Airplay or Bluetooth to receive audio or for mirroring video with a good app. For speakers/subs/signal, hard-wired is the way to go. Yes, there are ways to transmit audio wirelessly to an amplifier but nobody will see it as 'affordable' for a home.
Okay cool pretty much just put the nail in the coffin. Thanks!

The one thing I would recommend most strongly- install some kind of conduit with gentle bends for the HDMI that carries the signal from the AVR to the display- you'll be hating life if you don't.
Just for a bit of clarity are you suggesting to use conduit IF someone also had a wireless transmission set up to some speakers or subs? Or are you suggesting conduit from the AVR to the Display just in general? I'm assuming the former because I'm hoping you'll expand on the result of a radio wave causing a problem to an HDMI cable or something along those lines.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
Okay cool pretty much just put the nail in the coffin. Thanks!



Just for a bit of clarity are you suggesting to use conduit IF someone also had a wireless transmission set up to some speakers or subs? Or are you suggesting conduit from the AVR to the Display just in general? I'm assuming the former because I'm hoping you'll expand on the result of a radio wave causing a problem to an HDMI cable or something along those lines.
Wireless audio has come a long way...I use it to communicate with my system (volume control, some content, via the Marantz ap) as a permanent option it's still too unstable to replace a wired system imo..
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Okay cool pretty much just put the nail in the coffin. Thanks!



Just for a bit of clarity are you suggesting to use conduit IF someone also had a wireless transmission set up to some speakers or subs? Or are you suggesting conduit from the AVR to the Display just in general? I'm assuming the former because I'm hoping you'll expand on the result of a radio wave causing a problem to an HDMI cable or something along those lines.
The conduit is for cables that may need to be replaced or added in the future and with HDMI being such a freaking disaster, its time WILL come. HDMI is the least reliable cable I have ever seen and I have hated it from day 1. For long distances from the AVR to the display, I wouldn't even use an actual HDMI, I would use Category cable (Cat6 is best, at this point) and HDMI extenders. Unfortunately, there's no low priced way to go more than 30' with 4K/HDR/full color gamut.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
@Barron, it is clear (and cool) that you are somewhat of a newbie on this, so take your time and ask questions to get a handle on it.

Wireless is the big myth. It is often very good, and there are times when it is completely appropriate to use wireless for certain applications. Most notably, using wireless subwoofers in some rooms makes a lot of sense. Especially rooms with a speaker bar and finished drywall.

But, in almost all cases, whenever possible, to help eliminate potential issues, run wires if you can.

Speakers need to have power to make them work. They also need an audio signal. So, a speaker wire carries both power to make the speakers move, and the power that is carried is the audio signal as well. This means that when you run a wire, you take care of two things at once. The power and the audio signal. If you want to use a wireless speaker, then that speaker must include an amplifier of some sort as well as have a means to power it. This means a nearby plug, or battery power. Batteries are fine to run a portable setup for a few hours, but in a home, this is never something you want to deal with. Then you have to figure out how to get audio to that speaker. In a single room with basic audio and no TV, then Bluetooth is very common and can work well. In larger spaces, using the homes wi-fi is common. But, both are subject to potential interference and audio dropouts.

Neither is appropriate for video. This is because wi-fi and Bluetooth both have small delays in their transmission.

If wireless is used in conjunction with video, like wireless headphones designed for TV watching, or a wireless subwoofer, then these systems use a dedicated point to point RF transmitter/receiver that work in near real time. Now, I love my older wireless headphones, but they certainly did pick up a lot of noise in them. My newer digital wireless headphones sound awesome... until I turn on the microwave and they start cutting in and out with audio completely. Yes, wireless seems like a good idea, but it still isn't 100% perfect.

Now, if you are talking about audio quality if sending music from your phone around the home, then there are systems with very little to no audio loss at all. Audio has very little bandwidth compared to video, so it can be sent over many systems with CD quality audio just fine. But, once it is at the playback device, like your Yamaha receiver, then you want to maintain a wired connection all the way to the speakers if at all possible.

There is a lot more to it than this, so you want to consider all your options. For example, your Yamaha receiver may be able to connect to your home's wi-fi connection AND it has a wired network port on the back of the receiver. If at all possible, use the wired connection directly into your home's network. Avoid wi-fi if at all possible for all devices and sources that are located in your theater and throughout your home. Your streaming devices, such as a 'smart' TV, or a media player like AppleTV, Roku, or Chromebox units should be wired. Gaming systems should be wired. This gives them better access to the Internet and your home network and it takes away that overhead from the wireless network.

As for using conduit between the A/V receiver and your TV... This is a completely different subject. But, if it is difficult to run a HDMI cable or other cables between your Yamaha receiver and the television, then you should put in 1.25" or larger conduit so you can add/remove cabling in the future. Otherwise, when (not if) the HDMI cable is no longer appropriate, you can upgrade it to the latest standard without tearing out drywall.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
When you run wireless you insert three active devices into the signal path A transmitter, a receiver, and an amplifier. Each active devices in the signal path insert a touch of their own personality* into whatever signal passes through them. Here you have three. Also, keep in mind that each needs it's own power. Think about that for a minute...

* noise, distortion, whatever
 
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