Marantz 8805 review - very poor measurements

[Irvrobinson]

3. No, I did not know that most class-D amps filter out frequencies above 20kHz, but that's all good to me.

Class D amps don't usually have a high voltage low-pass filter in the output stage. The measurement specifications for Class D amplifiers usually specify a steep low-pass filter for measurements. The most used specification for the measurement filter is called AES-17. This is why I like Amir's (seemingly unique) unfiltered measurements of Class D amplifiers. They show you what ultra-sonic distortion the filters are hiding from us, and I'll decide if I can live with it, thank you very much.

 

[Irvrobinson]

So....for non-engineers/technologists, what's the takeaway message?

If none of these measurements (spectrum analysis, SNR, etc.) are really audible, who's to say what's more important?

Inaudible Harmonic distortion or inaudible low-distortion implementation is more important than inaudible SNR, Crosstalk, FR, and THD?

Remember, all measurements are just indicators, data points if you will, about equipment performance, and they can tell you a lot about design implementation quality. Audibility and relevance of certain performance levels are individual decisions. In my case, given how many choices there are in the marketplace and how much of a truly solved problem audio amplifiers are, one bad measurement is enough for me to walk away. For DACs, what Amir's measurements over so many products show, is that just using a good DAC ASIC isn't good enough, implementation quality varies widely, and is not well-correlated to price. One could reasonably question if 3db worse linearity at -100DB is really relevant, but if given the choice I want to see the best measured performance I can get overall. Of course, there's more to a DAC product than the D to A conversion. Output stages vary too. Is any of this audible? It depends, but I like the information for a buying decision. I made a mistake, for example, with the Outlaw 975 I owned, and appropriate test results could have prevented that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The amps don't usually have a high voltage low-pass filter in the output stage. The measurement specifications for Class D amplifiers usually specify a steep low-pass filter for measurements. The most used specification for the measurement filter is called AES-17. This is why I like Amir's (seemingly unique) unfiltered measurements of Class D amplifiers. They show you what ultra-sonic distortion the filters are hiding from us, and I'll decide if I can live with it, thank you very much.

So if a non-engineer/non-technologist asks if the Marantz does indeed have "poor measurements", the answer is, "That depends on whether you're an 1) engineer/technologist or 2) just regular consumer reading S&V lab measurements"?

If you're #2, then it's awesome.

If you're #1, then it's not so great.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Remember, all measurements are just indicators, data points if you will, about equipment performance, and they can tell you a lot about design implementation quality. Audibility and relevance of certain performance levels are individual decisions. In my case, given how many choices there are in the marketplace and how much of a truly solved problem audio amplifiers are, one bad measurement is enough for me to walk away. For DACs, what Amir's measurements over so many products show, is that just using a good DAC ASIC isn't good enough, implementation quality varies widely, and is not well-correlated to price. One could reasonably question if 3db worse linearity at -100DB is really relevant, but if given the choice I want to see the best measured performance I can get overall. Of course, there's more to a DAC product than the D to A conversion. Output stages vary too. Is any of this audible? It depends, but I like the information for a buying decision. I made a mistake, for example, with the Outlaw 975 I owned, and appropriate test results could have prevented that.

I think I see the point.

I'm not very familiar with some other measurements. But if you asked me whether I want to buy an Amp with a SNR of 130dB or an Amp with a SNR of 105dB, I would buy the Amp with the SNR of 130dB (if we are just looking at one thing) even if the difference is not audible.

Which pre-pro would you have bought if you had the measurements you were looking for?

 

[PENG]

So if a non-engineer/non-technologist asks if the Marantz does indeed have "poor measurements", the answer is, "That depends on whether you're an 1) engineer/technologist or 2) just regular consumer reading S&V lab measurements"?

If you're #2, then it's awesome.

If you're #1, then it's not so great.

Only if you were the Marantz tech support rep.

 

[Verdinut]

IMO, there's a tendency to go overboard with measurements. The real question is "CAN ONE HEAR THE DIFFERENCE WITH SCIENTIFIC PROOF?"

 

[Irvrobinson]

Which pre-pro would you have bought if you had the measurements you were looking for?

Since I wasn't willing to pay for a really decent pre-pro, like a Marantz or a Yamaha, I probably would have succumbed to the compromise I recently made, which was buy a $500 AVR and use it as a pre-pro.

 

[PENG]

Since I wasn't willing to pay for a really decent pre-pro, like a Marantz or a Yamaha, I probably would have succumbed to the compromise I recently made, which was buy a $500 AVR and use it as a pre-pro.

I thought you would prefer the SR models for the HDAM, good to know you don't give a damn about HDAM and settled for the NR.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I thought you would prefer the SR models for the HDAM, good to know you don't give a damn about HDAM and settled for the NR.

I actually believe that the best IC op-amps are better than discrete circuits, so I'm obviously not in the HDAM target market.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

IMO, there's a tendency to go overboard with measurements. The real question is "CAN ONE HEAR THE DIFFERENCE WITH SCIENTIFIC PROOF?"

we cannot hear the difference because we don’t have golden ears.

But some of these guys can hear the significant differences among all DACs, Amps, Preamps, AVRs, even in identical and absolutely perfect level-matched conditions.

So yeah, they can hear the smallest difference.

But to be fair, many of us go overboard on many things because it’s not just about audibility. It’s about personal preferences.

 

[Verdinut]

we cannot hear the difference because we don’t have golden ears.

But some of these guys can hear the significant differences among all DACs, Amps, Preamps, AVRs, even in identical and absolutely perfect level-matched conditions.

So yeah, they can hear the smallest difference.

And they are the same ones as those who can also hear differences between speaker cables and power cables. IMO, there are exceptions but most of them are just gullible audiophools who don't know much about audio, electronic equipment design, loudspeaker design and even electricity.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And they are the same ones as those who can also hear differences between speaker cables and power cables. IMO, there are exceptions but most of them are just gullible audiophools who don't know much about audio, electronic equipment design, loudspeaker design and even electricity.

Oh, you're brave.

I am a trouble maker, but I won't even say all that.

 

[Verdinut]

Oh, you're brave.

I am a trouble maker, but I won't even say all that.

Yes, I lost some friends after having told one that he had golden ears, and for my comments to the other one on the speaker cable elevators that he was using.

I accept constructive criticism and If someone cannot take a critic comment, he doesn't deserve to be a friend. I will never regret what I had said.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, I lost some friends after having told one that he had golden ears, and for my comments to the other one on the speaker cable elevators that he was using.

I accept constructive criticism and If someone cannot take a critic comment, he doesn't deserve to be a friend. I will never regret what I had said.

My wife's best friend's husband has 7 little Klipsch in-wall speakers and one in-wall Klipsch sub. He as a Denon X2400 to power everything. Also has a cheap Vivitek PJ and 100" screen. But he's an expert.

Anyway, he was talking like an expert in front of everyone. And he said that in-wall and in-ceiling speakers are the best and that everyone should use them, instead of all the big ugly box speakers. He said that speakers should always be on the same plane as the screen or TV. Otherwise, the sound will be completely inaccurate and won't "match" the sound on the screen.

So I nicely said to him, "Yeah, I wouldn't say that too loud in public or many experienced audio enthusiasts will laugh at you."

And my wife thought that I was being RUDE! Yes, rude for saying just that!

 

[Verdinut]

My wife's best friend's husband has 7 little Klipsch in-wall speakers and one in-wall Klipsch sub. He as a Denon X2400 to power everything. Also has a cheap Vivitek PJ and 100" screen. But he's an expert.

Anyway, he was talking like an expert in front of everyone. And he said that in-wall and in-ceiling speakers are the best and that everyone should use them, instead of all the big ugly box speakers. He said that speakers should always be on the same plane as the screen or TV. Otherwise, the sound will be completely inaccurate and won't "match" the sound on the screen.

So I nicely said to him, "Yeah, I wouldn't say that too loud in public or many experienced audio enthusiasts will laugh at you."

And my wife thought that I was being RUDE! Yes, rude for saying just that!

The friend to whom I told he had golden ears said he could hear difference between speaker cables, and he had an improvement in the sound performance of his stereo system with one of those silly big power cables.

I actually told him he should apply as a guinea-pig at the NRC.

 

[Verdinut]

The problem which I noticed with audiophools is that it's futile to argue with them, they're always right!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The problem which I noticed with audiophools is that it's futile to argue with them, they're always right!

They forget that there are other audio enthusiasts who have been there/done it for many years.

 

[killdozzer]

IMO, there's a tendency to go overboard with measurements. The real question is "CAN ONE HEAR THE DIFFERENCE WITH SCIENTIFIC PROOF?"

I agree that would be one of the real questions. But I don't think it's all about hearing. Hear me out before you boo me...

When I read there are some bad measures in a piece of equipment, I always ask myself what that measure is revealing about the unit measured. I ask myself; if you can measure some noise:

Is it indicative of some poor design?

Does that poor design imply shorter longevity?

If my ears don’t hear it, does that automatically mean speakers don’t mind that noise?

Are there some circumstances (like the lowest impedance dips in the speakers, or any you can think of) that will reveal this fault?

Will it affect anything else?

And, of course, even if you tell me for this particular one that maybe it won’t affect anything else, I would still pose all these questions for every other bad measure.

You know how animals react much sooner to an upcoming earthquake and although you don’t hear it until it’s already here it’s nothing to trifle with.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is it indicative of some poor design?
Does that poor design imply shorter longevity?

Yeah to me, poor design, heat Production, reliability are more important than anything since we know they sound great.

 

[fatburger]

Please see the following review at Audiosciencereview. Do a search for Marantz 8805 to find the review. Sorry I can't post links yet. Perhaps someone else can link to the review.

In the review they state the 8805 has worse performance "than a stand alone $100 DAC" and is "far from state of the art." I'm not much of a technical guy but these numbers do indeed look bad, especially for a reference $4500 processor.

I'd love for Gene and other Audioholics to weigh in on this review. Gene do you think the 8805 does indeed measure this poorly?

Thanks guys!

I'm not at all sure I trust Amir's measurements. There's an interesting review of the DAC used in the 8805 here https://www.absolutesound.com.sg/blog-2/2017/9/7/why-did-teac-use-the-ak4490-dac-in-the-ud-503-teac-x-akm-special-round-table-discussion and the measurement provided and the discussion don't seem to bear out Amir's conclusions. I am a EE and measurement is a tricky thing. I'm not saying Amir didn't see what he saw, but given what I hear from the 8805 and given what the folks who make the DAC say I don't have a lot of faith that whatever he saw has anything to do with the sound.