Center channel advice/help (JBL Studio 520c?)

[bigkrazy155]

I recently auditioned and decided to keep a pair of JBL Studio 590s. They are incredible towers and I'm in love with their sound. When I purchased them, I grabbed a JBL Studio 520c also, thinking I would need a matching center channel for that cohesive, timbre matched front sound stage.

Unfortunately, the 520c sounds almost nothing like the 590s. The 590s create an effortless, widely dispersed sound that gives you the impression that you're watching a live show. The 520c gives you the impression that it's an undersized speaker struggling to keep up, similar to many built-in TV speakers. It doesn't sound at all like 590s (in any frequency range). I even gave it a 6 dB boost just to see if audyssey had messed up on auto-config. I still was not happy with it. Should it be THAT much different or might it be a defective speaker? Should I give up on it and start researching different center channels to go with my 590s? Thanks in advance!

 

[bigkrazy155]

Quick follow-up: I just had my wife sit down and do an A/B comparison. She said "it sounds like a TV speaker." I guess it's not just my ears.

 

[TLS Guy]

I recently auditioned and decided to keep a pair of JBL Studio 590s. They are incredible towers and I'm in love with their sound. When I purchased them, I grabbed a JBL Studio 520c also, thinking I would need a matching center channel for that cohesive, timbre matched front sound stage.

Unfortunately, the 520c sounds almost nothing like the 590s. The 590s create an effortless, widely dispersed sound that gives you the impression that you're watching a live show. The 520c gives you the impression that it's an undersized speaker struggling to keep up, similar to many built-in TV speakers. It doesn't sound at all like 590s (in any frequency range). I even gave it a 6 dB boost just to see if audyssey had messed up on auto-config. I still was not happy with it. Should it be THAT much different or might it be a defective speaker? Should I give up on it and start researching different center channels to go with my 590s? Thanks in advance!

This is a familiar problem. The center speaker is the most difficult to design and should probably be the most expensive of the three fronts. If they are horizontal they absolutely need to be either three way or use concentric drivers. I have no idea how your mains sound and so can not advise you on a replacement. I suspect however that center is a detriment. So may be your best solution, and certainly he cheapest solution, is to remove the center speaker. I am more and more convinced most systems would be better off without the center speaker. God center speakers are an even rarer species than good left and right and they are rare enough.

 

[bigkrazy155]

Thanks @TLS Guy ! Is it normal for a center to be so very different from the other speakers in a given line-up? How important is it really to have the front stage timbre matched? I'd hate to be left out in the cold if I decide to go without and then change my mind years down the road, long after the Studio 5 series has disappeared!

Now for a noob question: if I go phantom center, can I still use the direct or pure direct modes? Or will I have to pick something else?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks @TLS Guy ! Is it normal for a center to be so very different from the other speakers in a given line-up? How important is it really to have the front stage timbre matched? I'd hate to be left out in the cold if I decide to go without and then change my mind years down the road, long after the Studio 5 series has disappeared!

Now for a noob question: if I go phantom center, can I still use the direct or pure direct modes? Or will I have to pick something else?

Well it does not timbre match now, does it? In any event as I always say, timbre matching is really just error matching. In short making the center as lousy as the others.

The is that really well designed good speakers will always match.

Yes, you can use Direct and pure direct with a phantom center.

 

[snakeeyes]

The new 600 series coming out will have a center with 5.25in drivers that may perform better. I know some people use a bookshelf or a tower for a center too.

Assuming you have a subwoofer, you might try raising the AVR crossover on the center to 100hz or similar though.

 

[bigkrazy155]

Well it does not timbre match now, does it? In any event as I always say, timbre matching is really just error matching. In short making the center as lousy as the others.

The is that really well designed good speakers will always match.

Yes, you can use Direct and pure direct with a phantom center.

Excellent points, thanks for the reassurance!

The new 600 series coming out will have a center with 5.25in drivers that may perform better. I know some people use a bookshelf or a tower for a center too.

Assuming you have a subwoofer, you might try raising the AVR crossover on the center to 100hz or similar though.

I thought about just waiting for the Studio 6 center as I'm not really in a hurry. I'm also considering other horn center channels, such as the RP centers. Presumably, I should stick with a horn design at least. Correct?

I fiddled with the crossover a bit, but in the absence of a sub. I was trying my best to judge the upper frequencies on the 520c vs. the 590. I could possibly cross it very high and give it a tremendous dB boost and be mostly satisfied. But I'm aiming for a higher level of satisfaction for now.


In other news, JBL customer support is great. They are going to send me a replacement so I can determine if my unit is defective or I just don't like it. They also agreed to extend my 30 day return window so I can have adequate time with the replacement.

 

[snakeeyes]

Excellent points, thanks for the reassurance!


I thought about just waiting for the Studio 6 center as I'm not really in a hurry. I'm also considering other horn center channels, such as the RP centers. Presumably, I should stick with a horn design at least. Correct?

I fiddled with the crossover a bit, but in the absence of a sub. I was trying my best to judge the upper frequencies on the 520c vs. the 590. I could possibly cross it very high and give it a tremendous dB boost and be mostly satisfied. But I'm aiming for a higher level of satisfaction for now.


In other news, JBL customer support is great. They are going to send me a replacement so I can determine if my unit is defective or I just don't like it. They also agreed to extend my 30 day return window so I can have adequate time with the replacement.

Hmm sounds like you should look at getting a sub or 2 and then you can just crossover the right way. I would look at HSU, Rythmik, SVS, and Monolith.

 

[KEW]

I think the phantom center is a fine approach and a reasonable solution, but just test it out for yourself.
However, the 520 does have the same tweeter as the 590, and with subwoofers I am very surprised you would hear such a substantial deficet!
I have the 580 and 520 and aside from the psychological influence of the 520 looking small, the sound was solid.

That is great that JBL is willing to let you try another and compare direct with your current speaker!

In the meantime, aside from a defective speaker, to cover the bases, we should ask about how you have your center speaker positioned/setup. Is it wall mounted? On top of a shelf? Cabinet shelf (shelf with walls and shelf above)?
A photo would be great!
How far off axis are you vertically and horizontally?
Any objects in close proximity with the center which could cause interference.
This is an MTM design, so, if you can (temporarily), try standing it up on end (you'll need a little something to prop it up from behind) to see if that changes things!

 

[KEW]

Hmm sounds like you should look at getting a sub or 2 and then you can just crossover the right way. I would look at HSU, Rythmik, SVS, and Monolith.

No sub?
I missed that!
That is the problem!
The 590's can do okay without a sub, but the 520 will sound anemic in contrast to the 590's!

 

[lovinthehd]

While not an equal to the 590 the 520 uses the same CD, and I don't find it that much a mismatch as you do. I would rather have another 590 like danzilla has, but wouldn't work with my tv.

ps Without sub I've not tried, nor would care to. I'm currently crossing my center at 150, too.

 

[shadyJ]

If the listener isn't close to the on-axis angle with respect to a center like the 520, they may be in a cancellation lobe which can cause a huge suck out in the frequency band of the woofers. There are other factors involved in this, but its possible to have this center channel sound very lifeless.

 

[bigkrazy155]

Hmm sounds like you should look at getting a sub or 2 and then you can just crossover the right way. I would look at HSU, Rythmik, SVS, and Monolith.

No sub?
I missed that!
That is the problem!
The 590's can do okay without a sub, but the 520 will sound anemic in contrast to the 590's!

Multiple subs are in the plans. But for now, I was purposefully testing without any lower frequencies to judge the center channel on the job it will be performing and at various cross over points (80, 100, 120). I began target testing in this way after I wasn't satisfied with the sound stage I was hearing after audyssey setup (and some tinkering afterwards). Is it not valid to test in such a way? If not, how can I judge the center on its own merits?

 

[bigkrazy155]

In the meantime, aside from a defective speaker, to cover the bases, we should ask about how you have your center speaker positioned/setup. Is it wall mounted? On top of a shelf? Cabinet shelf (shelf with walls and shelf above)?
A photo would be great!
How far off axis are you vertically and horizontally?
Any objects in close proximity with the center which could cause interference.
This is an MTM design, so, if you can (temporarily), try standing it up on end (you'll need a little something to prop it up from behind) to see if that changes things!

I have been playing a lot with positioning and with various listening positions. I have been putting most of my time listening directly on axis at various distances. For now, it's sitting on a desk and I've tried sliding it to the back, front and middle of the desk. I will try standing it up. I'm nowhere near ready to determine final position or wall mounting; I'm only evaluating. Long term, I would have no problem putting on some sort of vertical stand. I'll try to post a picture later, but will take any suggestions on how best to test in the meantime! Thanks!

 

[bigkrazy155]

If the listener isn't close to the on-axis angle with respect to a center like the 520, they may be in a cancellation lobe which can cause a huge suck out in the frequency band of the woofers. There are other factors involved in this, but its possible to have this center channel sound very lifeless.

Lifeless is a good way to describe what I'm hearing! Is there a reference I can use to test this theory? Or are there too many other factors involved?

 

[KEW]

Multiple subs are in the plans. But for now, I was purposefully testing without any lower frequencies to judge the center channel on the job it will be performing and at various cross over points (80, 100, 120). I began target testing in this way after I wasn't satisfied with the sound stage I was hearing after audyssey setup (and some tinkering afterwards). Is it not valid to test in such a way? If not, how can I judge the center on its own merits?

For the purpose of testing, I would suggest manually setting the crossover for all three front speakers (including the 590's) at either 100Hz or 120Hz for the purpose of comparing them to see how they will work together.
Obviously they will sound weak, but once you have subs I would expect you will likely cross the 590s at 60, 80 or 100Hz and the 520 at 100Hz or 120Hz.
The 590's have much, much larger woofers (remember, it is the total surface area times the stroke distance, not diameter that really matters!). Definitely expect them to sound different if driven full range!
From the standpoint of timbre matching, our ears are much more sensitive at the midrange frequencies. That is the reason you don't get much concern over which subs you match with your speakers. You want to get good subs, but among good subs, one is about as good as the next, it becomes more about looks and features!

 

[lovinthehd]

For the purpose of testing, I would suggest manually setting the crossover for all three front speakers (including the 590's) at either 100Hz or 120Hz for the purpose of comparing them to see how they will work together.
Obviously they will sound weak, but once you have subs I would expect you will likely cross the 590s at 60, 80 or 100Hz and the 520 at 100Hz or 120Hz.
The 590's have much, much larger woofers (remember, it is the total surface area times the stroke distance, not diameter that really matters!) and the 520 is a sealed cabinet, while the 590's larger woofers are ported. Definitely expect them to sound different if driven full range!
From the standpoint of timbre matching, our ears are much more sensitive at the midrange frequencies. That is the reason you don't get much concern over which subs you match with your speakers. You want to get good subs, but among good subs, one is about as good as the next, it becomes more about looks and features!

The 520 is ported.

 

[shadyJ]

Lifeless is a good way to describe what I'm hearing! Is there a reference I can use to test this theory? Or are there too many other factors involved?

There is this somewhat technical article that describes the shortcomings of that type of center speaker design. You would have to take acoustic measurements in your room to see what is really happening. I would look for a three way center like this one instead. I also like the Paradigm Premier center speakers. I have a feeling those would be a better match for the JBL Studio 590s than the 520. You might also look at the Hsu CCB-8, if you have the room for it.

MTM center speakers can never be a match for traditional bookshelf or tower speaker designs. Even if the on-axis response is the same, the off-axis response gets wrecked cancellation lobes, and the off-axis response is still a major component of what is heard even if listening on-axis.

 

[KEW]

I have been playing a lot with positioning and with various listening positions. I have been putting most of my time listening directly on axis at various distances. For now, it's sitting on a desk and I've tried sliding it to the back, front and middle of the desk. I will try standing it up. I'm nowhere near ready to determine final position or wall mounting; I'm only evaluating. Long term, I would have no problem putting on some sort of vertical stand. I'll try to post a picture later, but will take any suggestions on how best to test in the meantime! Thanks!

General rule is to pull them to the front edge of the shelf or let them overhang slightly.
Also knock on your desktop to see if it sounds solid or hollow. A hollow sounding surface will likely pick up and enhance (amplify/resonate) certain frequencies disproportionately!

 

[KEW]

The 520 is ported.

DOH!

I remembered one of my sets of Harman speakers had chosen a sealed design for the center (presumably so it could be wall mounted or tucked into a cabinet pocket without concerns of port clearance!
I had just handled the 520 to see how well it would stand on end (needs a little something to prop it up). i wasn't looking for ports, but neither felt nor saw the ports in the process so made a bad assumption.
It is the Infinity RC263 which is sealed while all of the towers and bookshelf speakers in that series are ported.

I edited my post!

Thanks for keeping me honest!