Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[Ken32]

They are likely ETP (99.9% copper, .04% oxygen min spec) vs OFC (99.99% copper, .0005 % oxygen min spec). Don't worry about it.

On home depot under specs it says it can be used in wet or dry areas. completely weather resistant and all copper conductors.

It must be good against corrosion for that type of elements.

I plan on adding wire pants to the ends and heat shrinking to clean it up at the banana plugs. Should be just fine.

 

[lovinthehd]

On home depot under specs it says it can be used in wet or dry areas. completely weather resistant and all copper conductors.

It must be good against corrosion for them type of elements.

The dielectric am sure is water/air proof, not usually an issue in speaker wire Exposed bare wire is what it is.

 

[Ken32]

The dielectric am sure is water/air proof, not usually an issue in speaker wire Exposed bare wire is what it is.

I'm just wondering if there would be a significant difference in Capacitance and Resistance compared to BJ cables or Canare?

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm just wondering if there would be a significant difference in Capacitance and Resistance compared to BJ cables or Canare?

Doubt it, especially anything audible.

 

[Verdinut]

So it is a huge difference OFC to ETP ?

There is not much difference between the two: Info from Wikipedia:

Oxygen-free copper is typically specified according to the ASTM/UNS database.[3] The UNS database includes many different compositions of high conductivity electrical copper. Of these three are widely used and two are considered oxygen-free.

• C10100 - also known as Oxygen-Free Electronic (OFE). This is a 99.99% pure copper with 0.0005% oxygen content. It achieves a minimum 101% IACS conductivity rating. This copper is finished to a final form in a carefully regulated, oxygen-free environment. Silver (Ag) is considered an impurity in the OFE chemical specification. This is also the most expensive of the three grades listed here.
• C10200 - also known as Oxygen-Free (OF). While OF is considered oxygen-free, its conductivity rating is no better than the more common ETP grade below. It has a 0.001% oxygen content, 99.95% purity and minimum 100% IACS conductivity. For the purposes of purity percentage, silver (Ag) content is counted as copper (Cu).
• C11000 - also known as Electrolytic-Tough-Pitch (ETP). This is the most common copper. It is universal for electrical applications. ETP has a minimum conductivity rating of 100% IACS and is required to be 99.9% pure. It has 0.02% to 0.04% oxygen content (typical). Most ETP sold today will meet or exceed the 101% IACS specification. As with OF copper, silver (Ag) content is counted as copper (Cu) for purity purposes.

But some cheap speaker wire, probably made in China, contained more oxygen, did not even meet the ETP requirement and it turned green with time. So it's always wise to get a brand name product.

 

[Verdinut]

It doesn’t say on the cable itself.

When cut it looks like solid strands of copper. Same as the speaker wire i have now.
How could i really tell?

You know how bright is pure copper? Take a new penny for instance. If the wire has a brownish tint and doesn't shine, then it's neither an OFC or ETP wire. IMO, It's junk.

 

[lovinthehd]

There is not much difference between the two: Info from Wikipedia:

Oxygen-free copper is typically specified according to the ASTM/UNS database.[3] The UNS database includes many different compositions of high conductivity electrical copper. Of these three are widely used and two are considered oxygen-free.

• C10100 - also known as Oxygen-Free Electronic (OFE). This is a 99.99% pure copper with 0.0005% oxygen content. It achieves a minimum 101% IACS conductivity rating. This copper is finished to a final form in a carefully regulated, oxygen-free environment. Silver (Ag) is considered an impurity in the OFE chemical specification. This is also the most expensive of the three grades listed here.
• C10200 - also known as Oxygen-Free (OF). While OF is considered oxygen-free, its conductivity rating is no better than the more common ETP grade below. It has a 0.001% oxygen content, 99.95% purity and minimum 100% IACS conductivity. For the purposes of purity percentage, silver (Ag) content is counted as copper (Cu).
• C11000 - also known as Electrolytic-Tough-Pitch (ETP). This is the most common copper. It is universal for electrical applications. ETP has a minimum conductivity rating of 100% IACS and is required to be 99.9% pure. It has 0.02% to 0.04% oxygen content (typical). Most ETP sold today will meet or exceed the 101% IACS specification. As with OF copper, silver (Ag) content is counted as copper (Cu) for purity purposes.

But some cheap speaker wire, probably made in China, contained more oxygen, did not even meet the ETP requirement and it turned green with time. So it's always wise to get a brand name product.

Some dielectrics have been known to have chemical issues and subsequent interactions....

 

[Ken32]

You know how bright is pure copper? Take a new penny for instance. If the wire has a brownish tint and doesn't shine, then it's neither an OFC or ETP wire. IMO, It's junk.

This stuff is glowing bright haha. Seriously though, it looks identical to my other 12awg wire.

I may just order more of the same wire i have and take back what I purchased today.

Tech flex will fit the outer jacket but the cable pants (11mm) but will not fit over the jacket to give a clean look.

With my current wire I could order 1/4inch flex and 9.5mm pant sleeve and it should be flawless considering the speaker wires stacked are 8.5mm combined as well as side measurement too.

 

[Verdinut]

Some dielectrics have been known to have chemical issues and subsequent interactions....

I read about that situation too.

I'm just wondering if there would be a significant difference in Capacitance and Resistance compared to BJ cables or Canare?

1. There shouldn't be any significant difference in the resistance: AWG 12 is the norm for all three.
2. For an 8 foot length, capacitance is not a concern
Roger Russell's website should be a good source with regard to the capacitance question.

 

[hemiram]

On the original topic, I"m going from a Yamaha TSR-7810, which has been an ok unit, to a Denon 4500H which will come Friday. I don't like most of the Yamaha's DSP modes, so I never really used them. I've had almost all Yamaha AVRs going back to the very early ones and all of them worked ok, but YPAO is nearly worthless. My first one with it was the RX-V659, which sounded awful using YPAO. Setting it up manually was a major hassle, but it sounded fine. My 7810's YPAO is better, but still sounds bad when used. A friend of mine has had the same experiences with YPAO on higher end Yamaha AVRs and he went to a Denon 4400H a while back and Audessy seems to work a lot better, with just a bass boost needed to be just about perfect, so I decided to give Denon a try.

 

[PENG]

with just a bass boost needed to be just about perfect, so I decided to give Denon a try.

Many people boost the level up 2 to 6 dB. I think it is better to do it with the App so you can shape it to you liking.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

On the original topic, I"m going from a Yamaha TSR-7810, which has been an ok unit, to a Denon 4500H which will come Friday. I don't like most of the Yamaha's DSP modes, so I never really used them. I've had almost all Yamaha AVRs going back to the very early ones and all of them worked ok, but YPAO is nearly worthless. My first one with it was the RX-V659, which sounded awful using YPAO. Setting it up manually was a major hassle, but it sounded fine. My 7810's YPAO is better, but still sounds bad when used. A friend of mine has had the same experiences with YPAO on higher end Yamaha AVRs and he went to a Denon 4400H a while back and Audessy seems to work a lot better, with just a bass boost needed to be just about perfect, so I decided to give Denon a try.

Concerning Equalization and nothing else:

For pure Automatic Room EQ, I think Audyssey XT32 is better than YPAO.

So if all you want to do is use Automatic Room EQ, I would stick to D/M also.

For Manual Room EQ, Yamaha’s nice Parametric EQ is significantly better than Denon/Marantz’s useless Graphic EQ.

So for people who don’t care for Automatic Room EQ and want to use the Parametric EQ, then Yamaha would be the better choice.

Sound United owns D/M and Classe and now Onkyo/Pioneer.

I don’t think Classe uses any kind of Automatic Room EQ, but they do have the nice manual Parametric EQ also.

I am curious to see if Audyssey will eventually be used in Classe pre-pro or will Classe stick to the manual Parametric EQ.

 

[Ken32]

Got the unit up and running! I’ll tell you, for a refurbished AVR it’s superb!! Not a mark on it anywhere. Literally looks brand new.

I’ve done some AB comparisons against my Onkyo and even in Direct mode it makes my towers sound better. There’s a fullness and presence that was lacking with Onkyo. Then again it is going on 12

So far I’m pretty happy with it!

We'll see how it goes.

 

[KEW]

Got the unit up and running! I’ll tell you, for a refurbished AVR it’s superb!! Not a mark on it anywhere. Literally looks brand new.

I’ve done some AB comparisons against my Onkyo and even in Direct mode it makes my towers sound better. There’s a fullness and presence that was lacking with Onkyo. Then again it is going on 12

So far I’m pretty happy with it!

We'll see how it goes.View attachment 30036

Nice!
I had the same experience as you about 10 years ago!
It is hard to beat Accessories4Less for value, and it is almost a no-brainer to just buy from them ... however, the reason I am posting is because there are certain times, like when an AVR is being closed out where you can get a new model for like $50 more than A4L's refurb price. At a minimum, check Google shopping before buying from A4L, just in case. Otherwise, it is a no-brainer - buy from A4L - it's like free money!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Got the unit up and running! I’ll tell you, for a refurbished AVR it’s superb!! Not a mark on it anywhere. Literally looks brand new.

I’ve done some AB comparisons against my Onkyo and even in Direct mode it makes my towers sound better. There’s a fullness and presence that was lacking with Onkyo. Then again it is going on 12

So far I’m pretty happy with it!

We'll see how it goes.View attachment 30036

Looks great Ken! Too many stickers though...

 

[Ken32]

Looks great Ken! Too many stickers though...

Thanks!

I’ve been busy organizing and cleaning up my wires. Now that I’m settled in, it’s time to peel them off!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks!

I’ve been busy organizing and cleaning up my wires. Now that I’m settled in, it’s time to peel them off!

I remember that feeling. Taking those off makes it complete! Like it’s actually yours, lol.
Enjoy! It’s a good AVR, and hub to a system.

 

[hemiram]

The stickers only come off on my stuff when it's going to stay for sure. If it's new, refurbed, and once I got a CD player that was pretty old, and still had the stickers on it, they waited until it had at least 20-30 hours on it. On my days off, that comes pretty quickly. Pretty much everything I've ever had that failed, failed quickly, or after years of use.

 

[sakete]

Hi, I plan on buying speakers + a receiver sometime this year. Currently in the process of demoing some speakers, and so far was really impressed by the Revel Concerta2 F36. But will be demoing more speakers in the coming months (in no rush to buy anything).

Anyway, as far as receivers are concerned, it'll probably come down to Yamaha (probably A1080/A2080) or Denon (X3500/X4500). I keep hearing people referring to Yamaha's as sounding bright, and Denons as sounding warm. How big of a difference is there really? Shouldn't they essentially sound the same (ignoring any DSP that may be turned on)?

I'll mainly be using two full size towers, maybe add a center speaker at some point, but probably no sub and no rear speakers (so will be a 2.0/3.0 setup most likely). Will be primarily for listening to music, secondarily movies/tv (yeah I could just get a 2 channel amp and be done, but I like the additional features that a receiver provides in an all-in-one package, such as streaming capabilities, HDMI inputs, etc.).

I know that Audyssey XT32 is considered very good. How far along has YPAO come from Yamaha? The room I'll be setting things up in is far from ideal, but it's the space I have for it. One speaker will be in a corner (wall behind and to the side), and another will just have a wall right behind it, but otherwise fairly open to the sides.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[Ken32]

Hi, I plan on buying speakers + a receiver sometime this year. Currently in the process of demoing some speakers, and so far was really impressed by the Revel Concerta2 F36. But will be demoing more speakers in the coming months (in no rush to buy anything).

Anyway, as far as receivers are concerned, it'll probably come down to Yamaha (probably A1080/A2080) or Denon (X3500/X4500). I keep hearing people referring to Yamaha's as sounding bright, and Denons as sounding warm. How big of a difference is there really? Shouldn't they essentially sound the same (ignoring any DSP that may be turned on)?

I'll mainly be using two full size towers, maybe add a center speaker at some point, but probably no sub and no rear speakers (so will be a 2.0/3.0 setup most likely). Will be primarily for listening to music, secondarily movies/tv (yeah I could just get a 2 channel amp and be done, but I like the additional features that a receiver provides in an all-in-one package, such as streaming capabilities, HDMI inputs, etc.).

I know that Audyssey XT32 is considered very good. How far along has YPAO come from Yamaha? The room I'll be setting things up in is far from ideal, but it's the space I have for it. One speaker will be in a corner (wall behind and to the side),and another will just have a wall right behind it, but otherwise fairly open to the sides.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

I’ve spent a large amount of time with receivers other than the AVENTAGE series of Yamaha.

My current is a Marantz SR6013 and i absolutely love it.

Anyway, as far as receivers are concerned, it'll probably come down to Yamaha (probably A1080/A2080) or Denon (X3500/X4500). I keep hearing people referring to Yamaha's as sounding bright, and Denons as sounding warm. How big of a difference is there really? Shouldn't they essentially sound the same (ignoring any DSP that may be turned on)?

I'll mainly be using two full size towers, maybe add a center speaker at some point, but probably no sub and no rear speakers (so will be a 2.0/3.0 setup most likely). Will be primarily for listening to music, secondarily movies/tv (yeah I could just get a 2 channel amp and be done, but I like the additional features that a receiver provides in an all-in-one package, such as streaming capabilities, HDMI inputs, etc.).

I know that Audyssey XT32 is considered very good. How far along has YPAO come from Yamaha? The room I'll be setting things up in is far from ideal, but it's the space I have for it. One speaker will be in a corner (wall behind and to the side),and another will just have a wall right behind it, but otherwise fairly open to the sides.

Any thoughts? Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I've spent countless time with AVR testing with Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Mcintosh. and i like them all except mcintosh. I don't feel they're worth 7,000 dollars by a long shot. I've got an 11 year old Onkyo that still works great. I've had a newer Denon x4400h that i sent back to keep my Onkyo RZ820 which I loved. They sounded the exact same, so i sent the Denon back to save 300 bucks at the time. I currently have a Marantz SR 6013 and I absolutely love it.

I cannot comment on Yamaha Aventage, places I've been to didn't carry them or they did but didn't have any stocked.

EQ {YPAO, Audyssey, Dirac, ARC etc...) are all subjective. Some work better for others based on room size, placement, furniture, acoustics, etc... I don't use Auto EQ at all (not everyone uses it). I measure my distances and use an SPL meter to measure each speaker sound level to match them. I mostly use Direct/Pure direct. However; with my new Marantz, I use manual EQ and i Prefer it over Direct listening mode.

My opinion, you cannot go wrong with any of them. I personally wouldn't spend more than 800-1000 on an AVR. Some would say less, some would say more. Again, subjective.

Look at {accessories 4 less} for refurb units, some units are half what new costs. Most of the time you can also get free 3 year warranty and free shipping. I ordered my Marantz from there this past Sunday for 799 {originally 1600) with free shipping and 3 year manufacturer warranty. It shipped Monday, I had it Wednesday (fed ex). Everything is flawless on the unit. Not a mark, scuff or scratch anywhere. It's awesome. The only issue i have is the remote. The buttons ( I have to smash them to work it) Marantz is sending me a brand new one no questions asked.

Don't buy a unit based on Auto EQ. Look for Price/Performance aspects. As far as that goes, look for which features are important to you, what you need, what you'll use and what you won't. Compare the features with other competitors and what their price is and choose.