Crossover & Equalizer Settings for Improved Movie Dialog

[Jimt1000]

I'm installing a new Integra DRX-7.1 receiver in my home great room. The room acoustics are horrible due to the architectural design of the space (large vaulted ceiling; hard floors and wall surfaces). I have good quality speakers (Bowers & Wilkins) throughout in a 7.2 surround setup. I'm actually upgrading from an Integra DTR-70.6 so I can manage the equalizer settings for the various bands of frequencies for, specifically, the front center channel speaker to improve movie dialog. The DTR-70.6 was the only model produced by Integra recently which didn't have this capability. I've played around with another, lesser, receiver on a different home setup and have found that I can improve movie dialog for my ears by adjusting the volume of the center channel speaker in the 1 - 4 kHz range. I'm going to experiment with the center channel frequencies with the new DRX-7.1 receiver to, hopefully, improve my movie dialog clarity accordingly.

My question pertains to the setup of the speakers for crossover. I understand 80Hz seems to be the recommended standard, especially for THX, but I don't understand the relationship between crossover and the possible improvement to dialog clarity. If I increase the crossover of the center channel speaker to, say, 100 - 120Hz would/should I expect to hear an improvement in dialog clarity? I guess to put it another way, can the increase of the crossover frequency in the center channel speaker along with boosting the center channel volume in the human voice range have an expected improvement on the clarity of movie dialog?

In this same vein, does the LPF of LFE, which has a default value of 120Hz, have an impact on dialog clarity?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[ryanosaur]

Though possible that it is the processing in the electronics, usually (as I understand these things) it is the design of the speaker that creates these problems.
IME, I noticed while playing with the crossovers for my BMRs (34Hz on the low end), setting them at 60Hz let more of their natural bass come through, but when crosed at 80, both my subs and BMRs performed better in terms of clarity of sound.
That said, i've heard two different approaches for this. I like the Octave-above setting for my XOs when possible. So if you have a speaker rated at 34Hz, I would want to go to 70 for the XO. Barring that, experiment above and below and see what sounds best. The other approach is to set at 1/2-an-Octave above: for simple math lets assume your speaker is 40Hz, then you would set the XO at 60Hz. Again... YMMV... and I would urge experimenting around with the frequency.
As far as the LFE channel is concerned, the encoded frequency range should be up to 120Hz. I've always seen people say to just let that be. It does not affect the other channels as this is specifically a Low Frequency Effect Channel.
On another note, Vaulted/Cathedral ceilings aren't IMO a bad thing. They break up parallel surfaces and assist in minimizing some of the modes in the room.
Please know, I do not claim expert status here, but I think there are a couple things worth experimenting with.
First: move things around. Perhaps you are getting bad diffraction from you center channel, assuming it is a horizontal speaker just sitting on a shelf. Same with your Mains. Positioning is everything and this is a simple and easy way to possibly solve it without spending any money.
Second: room measurements, if you can do that. Its next to impossible to say how to begin addressing the situation if it is accoustics without seeing what might be going on in terms of FR.
Third: as I said above, the possibility exists that it is a flaw in the speaker itself. You didn't offer us the whole picture of your equipment profile. B&W has a reputation for some good gear. The gear I experienced from them did not impress me, though. Please, to be clear, this is not a dig! Dig? Just my experience. Likewise, I've seen several well respected voices here say that some center speakers just don't perform well for one reason or another. Just something to keep in mind.
Beyond that, does your AVR/AVP offer a feature like Dialogue Boost? (Different companies seem to have this as a feature, but under different names.)

Hope this helps to get the ball rolling.

Please, if you can, let us know the whole equipment chain, and a photo or two might be helpful, too.

Cheers!

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

If I increase the crossover of the center channel speaker to, say, 100 - 120Hz would/should I expect to hear an improvement in dialog clarity? I guess to put it another way, can the increase of the crossover frequency in the center channel speaker along with boosting the center channel volume in the human voice range have an expected improvement on the clarity of movie dialog?

In a word, yes. Of course, raising the volume level of the center channel increases volume intelligibility.

So can a higher crossover setting. Unless your name is Barry White, there are virtually no fundamentals in the human voice below about 200 Hz. Recording mics, especially in close proximity, tend to unnaturally boost the low frequency content of voices, making them sound “boomy” and unnatural. It’s often hard to find program content with voices EQ’d to sound natural.

With some speakers, a slight and broad boost in the 2 kHz range can also increase vocal clarity and definition.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[TheWarrior]

I'm installing a new Integra DRX-7.1 receiver in my home great room. The room acoustics are horrible due to the architectural design of the space (large vaulted ceiling; hard floors and wall surfaces). I have good quality speakers (Bowers & Wilkins) throughout in a 7.2 surround setup. I'm actually upgrading from an Integra DTR-70.6 so I can manage the equalizer settings for the various bands of frequencies for, specifically, the front center channel speaker to improve movie dialog. The DTR-70.6 was the only model produced by Integra recently which didn't have this capability. I've played around with another, lesser, receiver on a different home setup and have found that I can improve movie dialog for my ears by adjusting the volume of the center channel speaker in the 1 - 4 kHz range. I'm going to experiment with the center channel frequencies with the new DRX-7.1 receiver to, hopefully, improve my movie dialog clarity accordingly.

My question pertains to the setup of the speakers for crossover. I understand 80Hz seems to be the recommended standard, especially for THX, but I don't understand the relationship between crossover and the possible improvement to dialog clarity. If I increase the crossover of the center channel speaker to, say, 100 - 120Hz would/should I expect to hear an improvement in dialog clarity? I guess to put it another way, can the increase of the crossover frequency in the center channel speaker along with boosting the center channel volume in the human voice range have an expected improvement on the clarity of movie dialog?

In this same vein, does the LPF of LFE, which has a default value of 120Hz, have an impact on dialog clarity?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

How far is the center channel from the wall behind it, as well as the distance to the listeners?

 

[Jimt1000]

Thanks for the responses... My front speakers are wall mounted, B&W speakers as follows:
Left & Right - B&W CM6 S2 (Frequency Response -3dB 50Hz - 28kHz ±3dB)
Center - B&W CM Centre 2 S2 (Frequency Response 55Hz - 22kHz ±3dB on reference axis)
Surround Speakers - Paradigm SA-ADP (Frequency Response 48Hz - 45kHz ±2dB on reference axis)

Distance to listeners is commonly 13 ft.

Integra uses what they call "Loudness Management" for dialog boost. This is defined as, "... When playing Dolby TrueHD, enable the dialog normalization function which keeps the volume of dialog at a certain level." I'm not exactly clear on what that means. And I'm not convinced this helps (or hurts) movie dialog clarity.

So, back to your responses, I really appreciate all the input. I guess experimentation is in order to determine if dialog is improved by adjusting the center channel speaker equalizer settings in the 1-4 kHz range; AND, then playing with the crossover frequency of the center channel speaker to see if increasing the crossover to, say, 120 Hz helps the dialog clarity. Any other suggestions or direction is appreciated. Regards, jft

 

[lovinthehd]

Dialnorm here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialnorm

I think you've got some good ideas to experiment with, and time to do some experimenting. I personally don't need to tweak my center for dialog (my avr has a dialog enhancer feature with low/med/hi settings but I don't use it). I'd more concentrate on using the eq you have rather than the crossover point.

 

[baronvonellis]

In a word, yes. Of course, raising the volume level of the center channel increases volume intelligibility.

So can a higher crossover setting. Unless your name is Barry White, there are virtually no fundamentals in the human voice below about 200 Hz. Recording mics, especially in close proximity, tend to unnaturally boost the low frequency content of voices, making them sound “boomy” and unnatural. It’s often hard to find program content with voices EQ’d to sound natural.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

If your talking about radio announcers than yes they do eat the mic for a boomy effect or use a mic such as a Electro- Voice RE-20 that has a bass bump. But if your talking about movies, when have you ever seen an actor hold a mic in a movie? Movies always use boom mics placed fairly far away. Even when they do dialog replacement in a studio they use a overhead boom mic above the actor so it sounds similar to the on set mic.

Boosting the vocal Eq range around 1-4khz and raising the center volume will make dialog clearer. You could cut the mid bass around 200hz a bit, that might help with clarity as well. Or making sure, the center in angled towards the listening position.

Adjusting the x-over of the sub wouldn't affect the perception of dialog in a center channel. Human vocals are well above the sub crossover frequency.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

If your talking about radio announcers than yes they do eat the mic for a boomy effect or use a mic such as a Electro- Voice RE-20 that has a bass bump. But if your talking about movies, when have you ever seen an actor hold a mic in a movie? Movies always use boom mics placed fairly far away. Even when they do dialog replacement in a studio they use a overhead boom mic above the actor so it sounds similar to the on set mic.

Good point, but I’m talking video programming of all kinds. I hear boomy, unnaturally bottom-heavy voices in movies and TV programming all the time. I’m no expert on boom mics, but it’s possible they’re designed to compensate for the natural low frequency loss normally inherent with the distance. Or maybe it's coming from the acoustics in the small sound booths they use in post-production. Either that or they are deliberately adding the “boom” at the mixing console. Either way - it's there, or this thread would not have been opened.


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[TheWarrior]

Thanks for the responses... My front speakers are wall mounted, B&W speakers as follows:
Left & Right - B&W CM6 S2 (Frequency Response -3dB 50Hz - 28kHz ±3dB)
Center - B&W CM Centre 2 S2 (Frequency Response 55Hz - 22kHz ±3dB on reference axis)
Surround Speakers - Paradigm SA-ADP (Frequency Response 48Hz - 45kHz ±2dB on reference axis)

Distance to listeners is commonly 13 ft.

Integra uses what they call "Loudness Management" for dialog boost. This is defined as, "... When playing Dolby TrueHD, enable the dialog normalization function which keeps the volume of dialog at a certain level." I'm not exactly clear on what that means. And I'm not convinced this helps (or hurts) movie dialog clarity.

So, back to your responses, I really appreciate all the input. I guess experimentation is in order to determine if dialog is improved by adjusting the center channel speaker equalizer settings in the 1-4 kHz range; AND, then playing with the crossover frequency of the center channel speaker to see if increasing the crossover to, say, 120 Hz helps the dialog clarity. Any other suggestions or direction is appreciated. Regards, jft

How about level settings, as in adjusting each channel to achieve the same SPL at listening positions? Did you do it manually, did you use AccuEQ and does it allow you to turn up the center channel after calibration?

 

[Jimt1000]

I actually set the volume of each channel using a sound level meter at the primary listening position (my chair) and set the distances to each speaker from this said location using a laser measuring device. For the center channel speaker, I raised the volume by 2 to 4 dB. Without any adjustment to the equalizer settings, which I can't do with my current Integra DTR-70.6 and hence the reason I'm upgrading to the DRX-7.1 in the first place, I can't understand the movie dialog very well at all. And other listeners can't either, so I know it's not just my ears. And as a further FYI, I had some other speakers for the fronts and center before I put in the current B&W speakers I now have. So, I'm narrowing down the issue with the acoustics, I hope. I'm optimistic that my ability to adjust the volume on the center channel speaker combined with raising the volume of the frequencies in the 1-4 kHz range will greatly help with the movie dialog clarity. Playing with the crossover from there, may or may not improve the clarity further. Hence the reason of my original post herein in such that I'm ignorant of the effect that adjusting the crossover would have on the voice dialog clarity. As an aside, what's really odd, is that when we're watching plain dialog on say the news channels, the voices are clear - as in crystal clear. It's only when we watch high end movies that we can't make out the dialog from time to time while watching and listening to the movie. Strange. I guess in the movies that some serious sound mixing is going on and this isn't suitable for the acoustic settings I have. Regards, jft

 

[baronvonellis]

Good point, but I’m talking video programming of all kinds. I hear boomy, unnaturally bottom-heavy voices in movies and TV programming all the time. I’m no expert on boom mics, but it’s possible they’re designed to compensate for the natural low frequency loss normally inherent with the distance. Or maybe it's coming from the acoustics in the small sound booths they use in post-production. Either that or they are deliberately adding the “boom” at the mixing console. Either way - it's there, or this thread would not have been opened.


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Here's an example of a shotgun mic for movies or TV shows. It even has a low frequency roll off switch. They are usually thin sounding mics. You don't want low frequency rumble or wind noise when filming on location. And recording studios are pretty acoustically dead, they don't add any low sounds. If there's boomy vocals, it would be done from the mixing console with eq and compression.

Jim, You can hear the new broadcasts becuase the dialog is heavely boosted in the 1-4Khz range and also compressed for maximum intelligibility. Also there aren't any other music or sound effects to mask the dialog sound in a news broadcast vs. a movie.
Vocal presence and intelligibility is in 1-4khz range.
Can you post pictures of your room and speakers, maybe I could get a better idea based on where your center is placed. I'm guessing it's the angle and location of the center that is affecting your ability to hear dialog.

 

[Jimt1000]

Thanks for the explanation on the news dialog clarity. Regrettably, I don’t have any pics of my room as this is actually at my Ranch HQ in South Texas. I’ll be there tomorrow evening and I’ll take a couple of pics and post them to give a better perspective of the room acoustics. Thanks again. Regards, Jim T

 

[lovinthehd]

Good point, but I’m talking video programming of all kinds. I hear boomy, unnaturally bottom-heavy voices in movies and TV programming all the time. I’m no expert on boom mics, but it’s possible they’re designed to compensate for the natural low frequency loss normally inherent with the distance. Or maybe it's coming from the acoustics in the small sound booths they use in post-production. Either that or they are deliberately adding the “boom” at the mixing console. Either way - it's there, or this thread would not have been opened.


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Seems to me with some tv programming they've got like a loudness contour in place boosting the bass.

 

[TheWarrior]

Can anyone find the crossover frequencies for the 3-way Center2 S2? I have been unable....

 

[Jimt1000]

Attached is the info sheet on the Centre 2 S2. Within the info sheet the Crossover Frequency is listed as 4kHz. Regards, Jim

 

[TLS Guy]

You said you had the CM 6 S2 center which is this speaker.

Can you please clarify which center you actually have?

I would say that clear dialog is one of the commonest complaints we have here. The center speaker is the toughest of all speakers to design and the ones with the most problems. A lot of the problems stem from enforced location and so many being horizontal MTMs, aggravating the boundary issues.

The speaker you cited in that pdf, has a horizontal arc dispersion of 20 degrees and a vertical dispersion of 60 degrees.
That pretty much takes you out of decent quality right out of the starting gate.

As with all speaker problems equalization is either of little not no benefit and more often than not makes matters worse with the phase shifts introduced.

This is the sort of dispersion pattern out to 60 degrees really required of a speaker, especially a center.

When you clarify which speaker you actually have I can comment further.

 

[Irvrobinson]

As with all speaker problems equalization is either of little not no benefit and more often than not makes matters worse with the phase shifts introduced.

With the exception of subwoofers or bass in general below about 100Hz, I agree with this statement. If there's a dialog intelligibility problem, in my experience EQ is a flawed solution, and the problem really rests with the L/R and center speakers.

 

[TheWarrior]

Attached is the info sheet on the Centre 2 S2. Within the info sheet the Crossover Frequency is listed as 4kHz. Regards, Jim

There are two similarly named speakers - does yours have 3 speaker drivers, or 4?

 

[Jimt1000]

Ok, thanks for the clarifications... I do have the B&W CM Centre 2 S2. I think I had the incorrect specs previously as there are many similarly named speakers. My apologies. I've looked hard and couldn't find the actual published specs by B&W, but I did find several spec sources online which corroborate the spec sheet as I've attached herewith. My only note is that some sources indicate the lower frequency range is 50Hz in lieu of 70Hz as published on this spec sheet I obtained online from an AV supplier. The picture of the speaker at the top of the attached spec sheet is what my speaker indeed looks like. And I checked the model number of my purchase when I originally bought the speaker from the Magnolia Audio store within Best Buy. Thanks for everyone's attention to this. Regards, Jim T.

 

[TLS Guy]

So you have the three way center. This shows the problem with the 2 way MTM designs. The vertical and horizontal dispersion is now flipped. So you have 60 degrees horizontal dispersion with that speaker. Crossovers are 350 Hz and 4 KHz. So the whole of the speech discrimination band is covered by one driver which is good in theory. It takes a good driver with good dispersion in the mid out to 5 KHz to carry it off though.

So what we need now is a picture of the installation of your speaker. My hunch is that your problem is a boundary effect problem. This is such a common problem. One of the big issues here is the baffle step compensation relative to the rear boundary and sometimes sides. This is the transition from monopole to omnipole. For an awful lot of center locations the Baffle Step Compensation is excessive. This is one of the huge disadvantages of having to buy ready made speakers. Speakers, and this is especially true of centers, need voicing to room and especially location. If I were a manufacturer I would at least have some switch options here for centers at least.

I have a unique continuously variable Baffle Step Compensation system. I can tell you that if this BSC is in the least bit excessive then speech clarity is adversely affected and in proportion to the excess.

So for you experimenting with placement, especially moving the speaker further away from boundaries is your best option. Your problem is compounded by the fact your mains are wall mounted which they are not deigned to be. You have to design differently for free standing, on wall, through wall and in wall speakers.