JTR Captivator 118? Vs "regular" HSU/SvS subs?

[ryanosaur]

Jim Salk owns Salk Sound. He sells Rythmik Drivers and Amps in his own Custom Cabinets. His speakers are known to retain a fair bit of their value. Many of his previously owned speakers come up for sale on Audio Circle (?, iirc).
Brian Ding is the owner of Rythmik. By all accounts, very good at what he does.

Why Jim chose Rythmik Drivers and Amps to use in his own Sub builds, I can't say. However, one thing you will get from him in his custom cabinets is great build, heavier cabinets, and furniture grade finish. He can adjust cabinet and port tuning if needed. Oh... and that finish!

As to whether a Rythmik 18" is going to be better or worse than a JTR 18"... see earlier comments: there is very little differentiating these beasts, at this level, in terms of performance. It comes down to personal preference, your values (low extension vs mid-bass performnace, power demand, and the features you want to see in your home).

*edit: I just looked and he doesn't mention the 18s on his site... dunno if something changed, or just overlooked in an update?

 

[shadyJ]

Is Jim Salk the owner of Rythmik, or someone else?

And are you implying the lower end JTR subs have no advantage over a high end Rythmik?

Would 2 of the Rythmik 18s suffice for a 5000 cubic foot area?

Jim Salk runs Salk Sound.

Lower end JTR vs higher end Rythmik doesn't have that much meaning, its all about performance measurements. Probably the JTR subs have a advantage in this respect.

 

[shadyJ]

Maybe head over to the JTR sub forum at AVS. Most users that have gone with subs that have 18" drivers claim that the sound is just better at all volume levels, something regarding the bass having "weight" to it that is not present with the smaller driver.

Not to pick on you, but the idea that bass sounds different per driver diameter is very silly. You can safely dismiss such statements as products of the imagination.

 

[shadyJ]

I need some kind of definitive differentiator here. Lol

Still confused. JTR, hsu, svs, Rythmik etc.

Whatever I buy I'd like to be as future proof as possible... With regards to sound quality, output, durability, different room sizes in the future etc


One factor not mentioned is resale value. I always prefer to buy stuff that maintains value over time, as I usually take really good care of things

There are a few things to consider given your criteria. First, the less hard you run the subs, the longer they will last. So if you are really pushing your subs hard all the time, they won't have the longevity of something that you rarely tax. That is a case for getting the high performers, even if you don't plan on blowing the doors off, especially if they are going to end up in a much larger room in the future.

Sound quality, at this level, they are all on par with each other. These are all very linear subs. The difference rests mostly in maximum output capabilities.

For resale value, SVS and Hsu have the highest name recognition so they tend to sell pretty fast in the used market. Something else that plays a big role in making an easy resale is size: the smaller the sub, the easier it is to sell. People plan to have a gigantic sub, it is not something they buy on a whim. The reality is few people are looking to buy 18" behemoths. Also consider it will not be easy to repack a 18" sub for shipping if you don't hold on to the original packing. One other thing to consider, not just for resale but for your own sanity, is the logistics of moving around and placing a huge subwoofer. A lot of people don't realize how obnoxious it can be to wrangle a huge and heavy subwoofer. Personally I don't like dealing with products that go much over 100 lbs. It can really become a chore.

 

[Landmonster]

There are a few things to consider given your criteria. First, the less hard you run the subs, the longer they will last. So if you are really pushing your subs hard all the time, they won't have the longevity of something that you rarely tax. That is a case for getting the high performers, even if you don't plan on blowing the doors off, especially if they are going to end up in a much larger room in the future.

Sound quality, at this level, they are all on par with each other. These are all very linear subs. The difference rests mostly in maximum output capabilities.

For resale value, SVS and Hsu have the highest name recognition so they tend to sell pretty fast in the used market. Something else that plays a big role in making an easy resale is size: the smaller the sub, the easier it is to sell. People plan to have a gigantic sub, it is not something they buy on a whim. The reality is few people are looking to buy 18" behemoths. Also consider it will not be easy to repack a 18" sub for shipping if you don't hold on to the original packing. One other thing to consider, not just for resale but for your own sanity, is the logistics of moving around and placing a huge subwoofer. A lot of people don't realize how obnoxious it can be to wrangle a huge and heavy subwoofer. Personally I don't like dealing with products that go much over 100 lbs. It can really become a chore.

All good points. Lol

Except all the subs recommended to me have been behemoths.

Even the hsu vtf15 is pretty huge.. but smaller than some of these 18s.

Here's what im struggling with.: The HSU VTF15 is about $1000 shipped, comes with a finish I like, and by all accounts sounds pretty good. It has a 15 inch woofer, variable tuning ports, and a reasonably powerful 600 watt amp.

I've been trying to ask if something similar in size, but much more expensive would sound better.... Ie., JTR with a custom veneer, or a gloss Svs PB-4000, maybe a Rythmik with custom finish, etc.


However, in these cases the subs are literally twice the price, each. Lol

I'm okay spending that if it's warranted for future proofing my setup, but only if it's something that makes sense.

That cash could be also spent on an amp, more LSI speakers, a nicer tv, etc.

 

[ryanosaur]

Unless you might end up in an 8000’3 room, 2 Vtf 15h mk2s will be very nice subs.
In which case, if you do end up I a cavern like that... buy 2 more!

Btw... you were asking about big subs... we just obliged!

 

[shadyJ]

All good points. Lol

Except all the subs recommended to me have been behemoths.

Even the hsu vtf15 is pretty huge.. but smaller than some of these 18s.

Here's what im struggling with.: The HSU VTF15 is about $1000 shipped, comes with a finish I like, and by all accounts sounds pretty good. It has a 15 inch woofer, variable tuning ports, and a reasonably powerful 600 watt amp.

I've been trying to ask if something similar in size, but much more expensive would sound better.... Ie., JTR with a custom veneer, or a gloss Svs PB-4000, maybe a Rythmik with custom finish, etc.


However, in these cases the subs are literally twice the price, each. Lol

I'm okay spending that if it's warranted for future proofing my setup, but only if it's something that makes sense.

That cash could be also spent on an amp, more LSI speakers, a nicer tv, etc.

The Hsu is a very well-balanced sub. The JTR will have more headroom across the board, and the SVS and Rythmik subs will be a bit more headroom in deep bass. I think you would be happy with any of them.

If you are interested in long-term reliability of your equipment, one thing I would do is skip the AVR's amp and get separate amps for the front stage speakers. Heat is the enemy of the long-term reliability of electronics, and in a typical AVR you have a bunch of heat-producing amplification hardware next to all kinds of delicate microprocessors.

 

[lovinthehd]

Jim Salk owns Salk Sound. He worked with Dennis Murphy for certain projects (of Philharmonic Audio, recently closed/retired). Bring Ding I believe owns Rythmik. Salk has built subs based on the kits Rythmik provides, tho....a guy I know in NY has some. Good subs by all accounts. Kinda pricey with Salk cabs, tho.

ps It refreshed only after I answered and saw the query had already been answered...does make me curious what the charge is by Salk for the cabinet/assembly.

pps Actually that Salk pricing isn't as high as I thought I'd see....altho I bet there could be some serious wait time...

 

[Landmonster]

The Hsu is a very well-balanced sub. The JTR will have more headroom across the board, and the SVS and Rythmik subs will be a bit more headroom in deep bass. I think you would be happy with any of them.

If you are interested in long-term reliability of your equipment, one thing I would do is skip the AVR's amp and get separate amps for the front stage speakers. Heat is the enemy of the long-term reliability of electronics, and in a typical AVR you have a bunch of heat-producing amplification hardware next to all kinds of delicate microprocessors.

Do you advise any kind of AVR cooling fan for the Denons ? In the meantime

 

[ryanosaur]

Do you advise any kind of AVR cooling fan for the Denons ? In the meantime

Ive been very happy with my AC Infity Aircom T- model... 3 different venting options. Top front and back. If you can, I recommend the back vent, but ultimately, it depends on the space you have. There are many other options for cooling too, but this was nice because it has a digital display thermostat and is easy to program. It keep my Marantz cool.

 

[lovinthehd]

Think of a fan setup as cheap insurance to keep the electronics cool, particularly if you've got them in cubby holes or with limited space above them...

 

[Landmonster]

Ive been very happy with my AC Infity Aircom T- model... 3 different venting options. Top front and back. If you can, I recommend the back vent, but ultimately, it depends on the space you have. There are many other options for cooling too, but this was nice because it has a digital display thermostat and is easy to program. It keep my Marantz cool.

Which one is best?

 

[ryanosaur]

Which one is best?

Foremost, you want space all around. Obviously front shouldn’t be a problem unless you have doors on your rack. Most mfgs recommend 6-8” of space on all sides.
Next, for that AC Infinity, if you have space behind, I recommend the back vent.
I use the front vent because mine was in a cupboard... lots of space, but no-where to send the heat. I’ve since moved it and am going to switch to back vent when I have some extra fundage to play with. Nice thing about that is you can stack on top if you choose... I have by Blu-ray on top.
If you use the top vent, you should not stack on top.
Again, it cannot be stressed enough that space on all sides is important.
The fan is bonus airflow and I’ve seen my Marantz get up to 113f with the fans off, while running an audyssey calibration. With fans on, eco on, external amps for stereo usage... the Marantz stays at 79-80f.

 

[Landmonster]

I didn't really want to derail this thread over AVR cooling solutions.

It seems like I have a few options, for an initial budget of about $2,000:
A) Get 2 HSU VTF-15(or similar) subs
B) Get 1 JTR 118HT sub ... and add a 2nd one several months to a year later.
C) Get 1 high-end SVS or Rythmik, like a PB-4000 or something ... and add a 2nd one several months to a year later.

In either case, they need to last a long time, have suburb sound quality, and have a good WAF finish for my living room. Resale value is less of an issue, if the sound quality is great, and the durability is good for years to come. I expect I would just keep it and enjoy it.


I am okay starting with 1 sub for now, as long as that will sound decent until I can afford 2 of them. Would having just a single JTR subwoofer cause some kind of sound dispersion problem? in a 5.1 theater setup?

Lots of what I read suggests that having dual subs will sound much nicer than just a single expensive sub. There will be a long time delay before I am able to add a 2nd JTR sub... lol... and even then, I would want the custom finish to match the 1st one that I buy.

There is also a distinct possibility that a single JTR sub (if they are as awesome/loud/offensive as everyone says) will dismay my wife into wanting to add a second one. "You want to spend $2,000 for a second one of THOSE?"

 

[ryanosaur]

I didn't really want to derail this thread over AVR cooling solutions.

Some great conversations happen as sidebars!

Many of us here are big fans of bang for the buck... I think you'll hear many votes for the Hsu option if you are into that. Options B and C are the same... nothing wrong with that approach. Buy the best single sub you can allow yourself to afford and start saving for the second? That usually is the argument for talking a person up into the Hsu VTF15H from a $300 sub... not into talking a person into a single $2K sub from two already great subs for the same cost.
Is the payout for duals, now, worth more than waiting for a while to get number 2? I think yes. That JTR is nice, but all things being equal, it seems the payout isn't necessarily worth doubling down on the investment. I think you are better served applying extra funds, over time, to other upgrades.

If it were me in your Hsu's... (sorry, couldn't resist ) I'd be willing to go up to $3K for 2 subs now/sooner, rather than $4K for 2 subs in a year. That becomes a slippery slope, 'cause I just already was like, what's 1K more now? But, as I said before, my value fell toward a different sub and I was heavily considering that $2500+S&H for the Outlaws. That I got them for $2K shipped was super awesome and made my decision that much easier.
The VTF15Hs are solid, and I, being happy with what I have, am still curious in a side buy side comparison. Might never happen, but I do recognize the balance point is that thin between the products at this level.

Plus, if the Lady may quash a second JTR, you'd be kicking yourself for not getting two up front!

 

[Landmonster]

Thanks for all the input guys. The custom finish requirement is putting a damper on things.

It adds $300 per JTR , and probably even more for a Salk with custom finish.

If I disregard those...

I am left with the HSU, or the 15" Ryhtmik (not 18"),or the svs pb4000 and up.

The Rythmik FV15hp comes in piano black for $1650 shipped. It is a 15" servo sub with 600 watt amp.
Http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html

the HSU is also a 15" sub with 600 watt amp... I wonder how it would compare head to head with the Rythmik?