Power supply

[Grandzoltar]

Why are toroidal transformers looked at as being better than el core. If that’s the case why is the Denon flagship x8500h not have a toroidal transformer.

 

[slipperybidness]

Why are toroidal transformers looked at as being better than el core. If that’s the case why is the Denon flagship x8500h not have a toroidal transformer.

One type is not inherently superior to the other. And, the cost is also very similar.

Toroids tend to have less stray EM Interference vs. EI. On the other hand, toroids are more prone to mechanical hum.

Another advantage of toroid is that it is possible for the end user to add a secondary winding for aux circuitry.

 

[PENG]

Why are toroidal transformers looked at as being better than el core. If that’s the case why is the Denon flagship x8500h not have a toroidal transformer.

That's probably more of a myth than fact in the audio world, fanned by hearsay over the years. The fact is, like a lot of things, there are pros and cons in both designs. There are very expensive amps such as Luxman amps, use the E-Is. All else being equal, toroids may have a slight edge overall, but all else are rarely equal.

Here's a good read that I found and posted a few times before:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/maxdb/maxdb071998.htm

Also, did you read and listen (the youtube video) to the review?
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x8500h-dolby-atmos-network-receiver-review

Gene and Theo suggested (in the video I think) that it might have something to do with the layout. The E-I core's shape may make more sense to fit everything (there are 13 channels of amps to fit) in nicely. Denon claimed they custom made that big and heavy guy (18.1 lbs) in such way that leakage flux would be be an issue.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's probably more of a myth than fact in the audio world, fanned by hearsay over the years. The fact is, like a lot of things, there are pros and cons in both designs. There are very expensive amps such as Luxman amps, use the E-Is. All else being equal, toroids may have a slight edge overall, but all else are rarely equal.

Here's a good read that I found and posted a few times before:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/maxdb/maxdb071998.htm

Also, did you read and listen (the youtube video) to the review?
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x8500h-dolby-atmos-network-receiver-review

Gene and Theo suggested (in the video I think) that it might have something to do with the layout. The E-I core's shape may make more sense to fit everything (there are 13 channels of amps to fit) in nicely. Denon claimed they custom made that big and heavy guy (18.1 lbs) in such way that leakage flux would be be an issue.

I take it you mean ....toroids have a slight edge overall, but all else are "fairly" equal? And the conclusion is that ...in such way that leakage flux would "not" be an issue? Makes the meaning come out a bit different...

 

[Trell]

I take it you mean ....toroids have a slight edge overall, but all else are "fairly" equal? And the conclusion is that ...in such way that leakage flux would "not" be an issue? Makes the meaning come out a bit different...

Nah, you are way too much detail oriented when you bother about an allegedly missing "not"

 

[Grandzoltar]

An EI core is a better design if it wasn’t for the magnetic field that generates from it. I wonder If avr’s Take the time to shield this to keep better fidelity. That was a good article thanks

 

[PENG]

An EI core is a better design if it wasn’t for the magnetic field that generates from it. I wonder If avr’s Take the time to shield this to keep better fidelity. That was a good article thanks

That's a good question, and the Audioholics.com review got you covered, as per Theo's (the reviewer) comment:

Once again, I spoke with Mr. Yamada about the choice of an E-I core as opposed to a toroidal transformer and technical aspects. He told me for the best price/performance, Denon chose a new 8.2kg, 18-pound customized power transformer that the company felt would provide enough quality and performance to meet their requirements for a flagship 13-channel receiver. He also said that Denon's engineers have the "know-how and experience to suppress negative effects such as leakage flux, beat, and vibrations to optimize the performance."

It is not rocket science, but the technique/methodologies involve more than just shielding.

 

[Speedskater]

There are pluses and minuses for each type of transformer. It's up to the circuit designer to decide which type fits the circuit design better. But there are often good engineering reasons for not doing a DIY swap.

 

[JerryLove]

Why are toroidal transformers looked at as being better than el core. If that’s the case why is the Denon flagship x8500h not have a toroidal transformer.

Because they are shaped like doughnuts... the standard of all that is good and tasty.

 

[lovinthehd]

Better question might be why would type of transformer matter and under what circumstances?

 

[drpramman]

Paul McGowan @ PS Audio has a YouTube video that might be useful.
Are toroidal transformers better? Google it and check it out......his genius works for me.....!
my .02 cents

 

[lovinthehd]

Paul McGowan @ PS Audio has a YouTube video that might be useful.
Are toroidal transformers better? Google it and check it out......his genius works for me.....!
my .02 cents

Paul is so full of sh*t it's not funny. Audiophoolery is often present in his videos.

 

[drpramman]

.....I would say he is quiet respectable in his field. He's build a nice successful business. He obviously is doing something right.
Now......let's review your YouTube video explaining the pros/cons and alternatives to toroidal transformers......ol'wise one.
Take a bit of wisdom here and a little bit of wisdom there and then one can make up one's own mind. After all, it's the purpose of a forum......'learning'.

 

[Pogre]

I take it you mean ....toroids have a slight edge overall, but all else are "fairly" equal? And the conclusion is that ...in such way that leakage flux would "not" be an issue? Makes the meaning come out a bit different...

I was scratching my head there too...

 

[Pogre]

.....I would say he is quiet respectable in his field. He's build a nice successful business. He obviously is doing something right.
Now......let's review your YouTube video explaining the pros/cons and alternatives to toroidal transformers......ol'wise one.
Take a bit of wisdom here and a little bit of wisdom there and then one can make up one's own mind. After all, it's the purpose of a forum......'learning'.

He's a very likeable guy and probably knows more about audio than I'll ever learn. I would probably even enjoy a nice conversation with him, but it doesn't change that he's full of sh*t. Up to his ears.

He promotes a lot of expensive and profitable audiophile myths like using superior cables to make your speakers sound better.... gene called him out on it. You can read Paul's rebuttal in the article.

Audiophile Cable Synergy: Real or Snake Oil?

PS Audio recently announced a partnership with Audioquest cables citing their products have a "synergy" together. Paul McGowan and his son Scott claim to have done countless listening tests to find the best cables for EACH of their products. Here is the letter they sent out in their newsletter...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[lovinthehd]

.....I would say he is quiet respectable in his field. He's build a nice successful business. He obviously is doing something right.
Now......let's review your YouTube video explaining the pros/cons and alternatives to toroidal transformers......ol'wise one.
Take a bit of wisdom here and a little bit of wisdom there and then one can make up one's own mind. After all, it's the purpose of a forum......'learning'.

In the field of audiophoolery, yes, he's right up there altho hasn't reached the heights of the likes of Audioquest, Nordost, MIT Cables, Synergistic Research, etc. altho he does play in the sandbox. That's why we often call it BS Audio. You need a video to learn things electrical/audio? You're going to spend a lot of time spinning your wheels that way listening to salesmen.

 

[drpramman]

........Ain't capitalism wonderful.......you go Paul...........ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK.
.....some folks have more money than sense....but it's their money and they can spend it as they wish......I have two clients that drive 3 hrs. to have their Maserati's worked on or they have them shipped.
........And yes, videos and reading forums are a way of learning.

 

[lovinthehd]

........Ain't capitalism wonderful.......you go Paul...........ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK.
.....some folks have more money than sense....but it's their money and they can spend it as they wish......I have two clients that drive 3 hrs. to have their Maserati's worked on or they have them shipped.
........And yes, videos and reading forums are a way of learning.

Well good luck with enriching Paul if throwing money at silliness is your thing. At least with a Maserati you get some actual performance, if you can drive.

 

[Pogre]

........Ain't capitalism wonderful.......you go Paul...........ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK.
.....some folks have more money than sense....but it's their money and they can spend it as they wish......I have two clients that drive 3 hrs. to have their Maserati's worked on or they have them shipped.
........And yes, videos and reading forums are a way of learning.

Well that was lesson 1 in psychoacoustics. The human brain is very susceptible to placebo, suggestion, expectation bias, etc. Controlled, double blind tests show that there aren't any discernable differences with a lot of those myths. Debunking those myths is what this site is all about. Truth in audio, down with snake oil and all that. You should check out some Audioholics articles and watch some videos. I've learned a lot in my time here.

Here's an example of a DBT.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

You'll see its very thorough, and interesting.

 

[drpramman]

.....no, I can't afford PS Audio......I have to buy my modest equipment used and I'm very proud of it. My time is consumed with taking care of elderly parents and trying to steel a few minutes relaxing and listening to some music. This is my first day of joining this forum and boy, you guys are sa'weet! lighten up....it's just a hobby!
...and thank you for the psychoanalysis, as I'll use that just prior to flushing! .....btw, that's why eBay and other sites sell our 'crap', mess-ups and antiquated equipment.........we live, we learn, we buy, we sell......it'a a HOBBY!......enjoy it............! Light'en up!!!!!