want to get most out of Atmos

[roodoob]

new guy, hi...

looking for some advice on tweaking the current system which is;
Denon AVRX2200W powers a 10 year old Aperion 5.1 = 2 towers / ctr ch / 2 surrounds.. .the sub blew for 3rd time so using a cheaper Sony, which works o k ....

when buying the Denon, picked up some Jamo spherical speakers(set of 5) closeout that i "thought " i could use 2 of the down facing, for Atmos effect...
which is not the case , meaning , not getting much out of them, and would like to get 2 speakers to replace,
(or add to)
which will give me a better sound when watching a 4K disc on my Oled screen !

it's a smallish room , ceiling is not an option nor are side walls ...15' across, center seat to the screen is 11' , my center seat /ear level, sits 20-22" from rear wall, but
could position new speakers from 10 - 50" above ear level or from 10 - 30" above screen on the front wall
85% of time it's all about the music and that is fine ..but

want to take as much advantage of the sound from the movies ... 4K and netflix ...also, have come to realize that i can only add 2 atmos enabled speakers,
to this Denon and not replacing that which has me moving away from those and in this direction ...

looking for the best choices for 2 different rear speakers (or front?) which will give me the best bang for the buck and improve the audio quality of the movies ...
looking in the $200 or under range ... placement of said speakers recommendations and since the Jamo (rear speakers) are there ,
can i just leave them and wire the new choice to them, in ? parallel or ?

thanx very much

 

[2channel lover]

new guy, hi...

looking for some advice on tweaking the current system which is;
Denon AVRX2200W powers a 10 year old Aperion 5.1 = 2 towers / ctr ch / 2 surrounds.. .the sub blew for 3rd time so using a cheaper Sony, which works o k ....

when buying the Denon, picked up some Jamo spherical speakers(set of 5) closeout that i "thought " i could use 2 of the down facing, for Atmos effect...
which is not the case , meaning , not getting much out of them, and would like to get 2 speakers to replace,
(or add to)
which will give me a better sound when watching a 4K disc on my Oled screen !

it's a smallish room , ceiling is not an option nor are side walls ...15' across, center seat to the screen is 11' , my center seat /ear level, sits 20-22" from rear wall, but
could position new speakers from 10 - 50" above ear level or from 10 - 30" above screen on the front wall
85% of time it's all about the music and that is fine ..but

want to take as much advantage of the sound from the movies ... 4K and netflix ...also, have come to realize that i can only add 2 atmos enabled speakers,
to this Denon and not replacing that which has me moving away from those and in this direction ...

looking for the best choices for 2 different rear speakers (or front?) which will give me the best bang for the buck and improve the audio quality of the movies ...
looking in the $200 or under range ... placement of said speakers recommendations and since the Jamo (rear speakers) are there ,
can i just leave them and wire the new choice to them, in ? parallel or ?

thanx very much

You may not like my response, but after reading your post, this was my 1st thought.

Atmos...if you don't have ceiling access you'll need speaker top units which work best with towers. Generally speaking...4 atmos spkrs are better than two. With you sitting maybe 12' from the mains, you wouldn't gain much if any affect from a speaker top atmos.

So...your rears also need to host 2 more atmos...they don't really need to match the mains/ctr. You're likely going to need towers for the rear and 4 atmos in addition to make this worth your investment.

My advice...you have a nice size space...I don't recall what your speakers are but if you're happy with them I would upgrade the sub to a real impact player, and add a pair of book shelfs for rears for now. Atmos is nice, but it's not worth sacrificing what really matters in HT.

IMO, inceiling is the best, for Atmos but I've heard a good speaker top klipsch demo that was effective.

 

[roodoob]

since adding a few decibels to those rear surround ( Jamos ) i in fact, heard a bit more when re-watching an atmos movie ... but tho i can "get it" w / a lot of music ...doNot claim to have the ear in the movie end of things ... if i hear correctly , i could go for a little better bookshelf , to replace the Jamo , and likely do o k w / that ?
meaning = get a fuller sound from my current Atmos 4K library, and new ad ons ?
in seeking other advice ...
been told my receiver isn't going to like adding more then the allotted # of speakers , and could do damage ...
and, not going to be going full bore on this .... simply want an improvement in the sound tracks of said flicks

thanx

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Not really sure I followed how you have the Jamo’s installed. But assuming they’re in a normal surround position, you’d leave them where they are. In your room with the restrictions on the ceiling, I would put them high on the front wall in the “front height” position, as seen here

Definitely connect them to the front height terminals and NOT in series or parallel or any weird combination. Only to the correct terminals for a 5.1.2 installation.
And definitely get a sub.

 

[shadyJ]

If you improperly install an Atmos setup, that may end up being worse than no Atmos at all. If you can't accommodate the requirements of Atmos, I would just stick with a regular surround sound setup.

With some of your speakers, your sub, and your AVR, it looks like you are trying to make up in quantity what some of your gear is lacking in quality. I would be saving for a decent sub and center speaker long before I would start thinking about Atmos.

 

[RedCharles]

Atmos is really cool. The best part of Atmos is NOT the overhead sound, which is gimmicky. THE BEST PART OF ATMOS IS THAT IT GETS RID OF THE CENTER CHANNEL DIALOGUE EMPHASIS. Instead, the sound of the character's voice follows them around on screen, and it is a subtle effect, but it so much more immersive when the voices come from a face instead of the center channel. The front height set up is better than top mounted speakers for this reason.

Remember, Atmos is spatial and not channel driven.

I'm using Polk OMW3's, and they match their price, nothing special except for the mounting possibilities.

Also, up-firing speakers are a joke.

 

[roodoob]

going back to the Jamo ....
they are on the rear wall 20" behind and 25" above my ear level, in the center seat
( as seen in sketch)
wired to the rear surround on the Denon ...again,
have been told NOT to add speakers beyond what the receiver can hold, w/ potential to fry it ?!?
not sure how accurate that is, but accepting those giving me info, are infinitely more qualified than i

Denon rear panel shows no "heights" just
L/R... Cter... L/R surround ... L/R rear surr and Sub (x2)

subwoofer is in place , to clarify,
it's just Not the original Aperion i got w/ the original set-up, as that blew...and so
replaced with a cheaper Sony version, that
( for my 65 y o ears )
sounds adequate ...

to get "some" of the atmos effect i seek, i suppose the question is ;
do i put the replacement pair of speakers
( suggestions for those? )
on the front wall / above and behind the screen at an angle ?!? facing to the listener(s)
or
is it same / mostly similar effect , if placed on the rear wall , again angled down , at what would be in front of the center seat position ?

thanx

 

[roodoob]

oops forgot ...the other aspect of this ....the audyssey setup , which i had alsways used b 4 , others have said not to bother, for this application ...so, is there a "formula" of sorts for me to use , in re calibrating after everything is in place ...i still have the original meter sent w / the Aperions years ago ...

thanx

 

[bigkrazy155]

Is there a minimum separation figure for front and rear height speakers? For example, I'm planning to mount the rear surrounds a couple of feet above seated ear level. Add in the 7.5ish foot ceiling, and you have height speakers only a couple of feet above. At this point, I'm only weighing options. Thanks!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

going back to the Jamo ....
they are on the rear wall 20" behind and 25" above my ear level, in the center seat
( as seen in sketch)
wired to the rear surround on the Denon ...again,
have been told NOT to add speakers beyond what the receiver can hold, w/ potential to fry it ?!?
not sure how accurate that is, but accepting those giving me info, are infinitely more qualified than i

Denon rear panel shows no "heights" just
L/R... Cter... L/R surround ... L/R rear surr and Sub (x2)

subwoofer is in place , to clarify,
it's just Not the original Aperion i got w/ the original set-up, as that blew...and so
replaced with a cheaper Sony version, that
( for my 65 y o ears )
sounds adequate ...

to get "some" of the atmos effect i seek, i suppose the question is ;
do i put the replacement pair of speakers
( suggestions for those? )
on the front wall / above and behind the screen at an angle ?!? facing to the listener(s)
or
is it same / mostly similar effect , if placed on the rear wall , again angled down , at what would be in front of the center seat position ?

thanx

Couple things. Surround speakers need to be connected to the surround terminals, NOT “rear” surround terminals. Rear surrounds don’t usually contain much information and also you’re sending them the wrong content. Only use those terminals if you’re using a 7ch layout. Connect the front height speakers to the rear surround terminals. Go into the menu(or during audyssey, which you should rerun) and “amp assign” the rear surround amps to front height.(top front if ceiling installed).
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX2200W/NA/EN/WBSPSYtweharpi.php
Here’s the manual, and the page to amp assign.
Normally I would tell you to lower the surrounds a little bit, but since you’re using 2 height speakers, I think that’ll work.

Also, do not install atmos speakers behind you unless you place front ones first. So yes, on the front wall, at about 8-9’ should be great, aimed at the LP.

Edit: Also, yes you can connect all 7 speakers to the denon. You’re not going to do any damage unless you have it cranked to painful levels.
Without knowing the context, I say someone just gave you bad advice as far as I can tell.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Is there a minimum separation figure for front and rear height speakers? For example, I'm planning to mount the rear surrounds a couple of feet above seated ear level. Add in the 7.5ish foot ceiling, and you have height speakers only a couple of feet above. At this point, I'm only weighing options. Thanks!

Are you doing rear surrounds ala 7.x.x? Or are you simply referring to regular surrounds in a 5.x.x system? I ask because there’s a difference and it helps to be talking about the same thing.

So, how did you decide a couple feet above? Convenience, or to get over peoples heads?
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf here’s the big guide.

Here’s an image showing the basic guidelines.
Basically it’s saying two to three times the height of the mains and surrounds for height speakers. Surrounds can be 1.25x the height of the mains. Mine are about 1.55x mains and are fine but my ceilings are taller than yours. In short I think you’ll be fine, but that’s pretty low ceiling height so personally, I’d go as close to ear height as I can.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

oops forgot ...the other aspect of this ....the audyssey setup , which i had alsways used b 4 , others have said not to bother, for this application ...so, is there a "formula" of sorts for me to use , in re calibrating after everything is in place ...i still have the original meter sent w / the Aperions years ago ...

thanx

Just use audyssey. Afterwards you can turn it off and it will still maintain all the level and distance settings. Or leave it on...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Also, going back to the original post, connecting the surround speakers to the surround terminals(NOT the rear surround terminals) will make them much more active and give you better, or I should say correct surround sound.

 

[bigkrazy155]

Are you doing rear surrounds ala 7.x.x? Or are you simply referring to regular surrounds in a 5.x.x system? I ask because there’s a difference and it helps to be talking about the same thing.

So, how did you decide a couple feet above? Convenience, or to get over peoples heads?
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf here’s the big guide.

Here’s an image showing the basic guidelines.
Basically it’s saying two to three times the height of the mains and surrounds for height speakers. Surrounds can be 1.25x the height of the mains. Mine are about 1.55x mains and are fine but my ceilings are taller than yours. In short I think you’ll be fine, but that’s pretty low ceiling height so personally, I’d go as close to ear height as I can.

I was talking 7.x.x. I had no idea that side elevation speakers were a thing, haha. I had been planning to raise the side and rear surrounds above ear level per the advice on one of the audioholics YouTube vids, but if low ceilings make true ear level more beneficial I can certainly mount them accordingly. Also, where do you get the diagrams? They are immensely helpful!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I was talking 7.x.x. I had no idea that side elevation speakers were a thing, haha. I had been planning to raise the side and rear surrounds above ear level per the advice on one of the audioholics YouTube vids, but if low ceilings make true ear level more beneficial I can certainly mount them accordingly. Also, where do you get the diagrams? They are immensely helpful!

Lol, I’ve saved them here and there, but in the link to the Dolby guide(which is waaaaaay more useful than their site btw) has a lot of them.

Not sure where you see side elevation speakers? Curious what you mean.

 

[bigkrazy155]

Lol, I’ve saved them here and there, but in the link to the Dolby guide(which is waaaaaay more useful than their site btw) has a lot of them.

Not sure where you see side elevation speakers? Curious what you mean.

Okay, apparently I misunderstood your ask between 5.x.x and 7.x.x. I was trying to say front speakers elevated over the L/R and rear speakers elevated over the rear L/R surrounds, behind the seated position. Either way, your ratio guidance gave me the answer I needed!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Okay, apparently I misunderstood your ask between 5.x.x and 7.x.x. I was trying to say front speakers elevated over the L/R and rear speakers elevated over the rear L/R surrounds, behind the seated position. Either way, your ratio guidance gave me the answer I needed!

Ok I think I see. We were talking about the same thing but calling it something else!


Glad you got your answers in any case. I’m a fan of Atmos and I’m sure you’re goin to love it!

 

[roodoob]

Not really sure I followed how you have the Jamo’s installed. But assuming they’re in a normal surround position, you’d leave them where they are. In your room with the restrictions on the ceiling, I would put them high on the front wall in the “front height” position, as seen here

Definitely connect them to the front height terminals and NOT in series or parallel or any weird combination. Only to the correct terminals for a 5.1.2 installation.
And definitely get a sub.

the current Jamos are in the REAR...20" behind and 22" above ear level for the center sitting position ...
2 of them, the 2 of the set, that face upward, and thus were hung Upside Down from a shelf...thinking... o k that's going to give an effect similar to coming off the ceiling ...which ... o k...is not the case

"height" terminals keep getting referred to ?!? my amp does not designate as such ...or...is that something that shows on the T V screen during the setup process ?

thanx for the patience

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

the current Jamos are in the REAR...20" behind and 22" above ear level for the center sitting position ...
2 of them, the 2 of the set, that face upward, and thus were hung Upside Down from a shelf...thinking... o k that's going to give an effect similar to coming off the ceiling ...which ... o k...is not the case

"height" terminals keep getting referred to ?!? my amp does not designate as such ...or...is that something that shows on the T V screen during the setup process ?

thanx for the patience

The “height terminals” are actually the “rear surround” terminals. Those are what you’d connect the front heights to. In the audio menu, you can assign the internal amplifiers for the rear surround speakers to power the front height speakers. All of the processing is changed internally so they receive the correct content.

I did see your diagram indicating where the Jamo speakers are. This is where they should be when used as “surround” speakers in a 5ch based system. “Rear” surround speakers would ideally be behind you by about 5’. Kinda like this...

 

[roodoob]

Couple things. Surround speakers need to be connected to the surround terminals, NOT “rear” surround terminals. Rear surrounds don’t usually contain much information and also you’re sending them the wrong content. Only use those terminals if you’re using a 7ch layout. Connect the front height speakers to the rear surround terminals. Go into the menu(or during audyssey, which you should rerun) and “amp assign” the rear surround amps to front height.(top front if ceiling installed).
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX2200W/NA/EN/WBSPSYtweharpi.php
Here’s the manual, and the page to amp assign.
Normally I would tell you to lower the surrounds a little bit, but since you’re using 2 height speakers, I think that’ll work.

Also, do not install atmos speakers behind you unless you place front ones first. So yes, on the front wall, at about 8-9’ should be great, aimed at the LP.

Edit: Also, yes you can connect all 7 speakers to the denon. You’re not going to do any damage unless you have it cranked to painful levels.
Without knowing the context, I say someone just gave you bad advice as far as I can tell.

William, again thanx for the help ...
going thru some of the diagrams , i see my current use ...
to clarify, my L/R surrounds... are connected as such ...the rear surrounds ( Jamos ) are hung upside down on a shelf, built for them ...thus, those wires are in place , and i would rather replace those speakers (Jamo) put them up a little higher, on the rear wall
( there's actually a shelf that i could use 55" above ear level)
and avoid having to do the buried wires etc, on the front wall ...
however , if that placement was going to be significantly better , meaning much better effect, i'd do that dance ....
there are a few speakers ; Polk OWM 3 or OWM 5 / Cambridge minx min 12 or 22 that have been referenced in other spots, that have adjust-ability to them, angles etc which might do the trick ?!?
the variety of settings ...amp assignments ... etc . is what leaves me floundering a bit, and seems over my head = concern for doin damage to the system !