Let's talk modems & routers

[Trell]

Anyone who has or is considering Nest and/or Google Assistant needs to read this-

https://www.the-ambient.com/news/works-with-nest-shut-down-google-assistant-1583

This is Google, after all: Google’s constant product shutdowns are damaging its brand

I'm sort of sceptical to be too dependant on Google services, apps and devices because of their bad history of loosing interest after awhile.

While Google WiFi may be very nice, I'm not sure how long it takes before it's discontinued along with no further security updates.

 

[panteragstk]

Late to the party but on this one, but I do have some thoughts.

I use ecobee thermostats and the only reason they help me is because my 2 zone system ( builder cheaper out on two systems on my house. One per floor) is because it completely stopped my issue with my kids rooms being too hot/cold due to the remote sensors. Totally worth it. All smart function disabled.

As for routers, modems, wifi I'm an IT consultant so I have to go more technical than most. I have the mandatory ATT gateway for my uverse and hate it. Can't passthrough the WAN IP to my own "router" and it pisses me off. I digress.

I'm with @Irvrobinson when it comes to separates in my network. My system probably is closest to how @BoredSysAdmin has his set up. Crappy att gateway>sophos utm (router/firewall)>ubiquity APs x2. One AP for upstairs, one for down.

If any one component of my network fails it's config is easily recovered. I used to use Asus routers and they are awesome. Especially with the Tomato firmware, but the there was too much overhead with that custom firmware and my 300mbps WAN speed went down to 200mbps. Maybe modern models are better (Merlin firmware fixed this, but isn't as good IMHO). I won't use consumer gear ever again if I can help it.

Having said all that I recommended the Google system to a buddy and he loves it. I hesitate with Netgear for the reasons everyone has already said, but I've got no experience with their mesh stuff so it could be awesome, but a lot of those types of products get left behind when it comes to security updates.

Sadly consumers don't really know what they are missing when it comes to quality network gear. I feel like we can all realate to this on another topic...

 

[Trell]

I'm with @Irvrobinson when it comes to separates in my network. My system probably is closest to how @BoredSysAdmin has his set up. Crappy att gateway>sophos utm (router/firewall)>ubiquity APs x2. One AP for upstairs, one for down.

I've a Ubiquiti UniFi setup that I'm happy with, and works better than the Netgear router I used earlier, but it does require some network knowledge/skills to setup and maintain.

My setup is the USG 3P router, one AP-NanoHD, Cloudkey gen2, and three 8-port switches (two with PoE). Since the AP can be powered with PoE it is easier to place it where the signal gives good coverage, and the AP is small and unobtrusive. Luckily, I have fiber and do not have a crappy gateway I am forced to use.

Sadly consumers don't really know what they are missing when it comes to quality network gear. I feel like we can all realate to this on another topic...

That is understandable, but that gear quickly becomes expensive and often require more knowledge to setup/maintain than the ordinary consumer has.

Even PoE is quite nice and can greatly easy installation of AP's in places where there are no power outlets nearby.

 

[highfigh]

Late to the party but on this one, but I do have some thoughts.

I use ecobee thermostats and the only reason they help me is because my 2 zone system ( builder cheaper out on two systems on my house. One per floor) is because it completely stopped my issue with my kids rooms being too hot/cold due to the remote sensors. Totally worth it. All smart function disabled.

As for routers, modems, wifi I'm an IT consultant so I have to go more technical than most. I have the mandatory ATT gateway for my uverse and hate it. Can't passthrough the WAN IP to my own "router" and it pisses me off. I digress.

I'm with @Irvrobinson when it comes to separates in my network. My system probably is closest to how @BoredSysAdmin has his set up. Crappy att gateway>sophos utm (router/firewall)>ubiquity APs x2. One AP for upstairs, one for down.

If any one component of my network fails it's config is easily recovered. I used to use Asus routers and they are awesome. Especially with the Tomato firmware, but the there was too much overhead with that custom firmware and my 300mbps WAN speed went down to 200mbps. Maybe modern models are better (Merlin firmware fixed this, but isn't as good IMHO). I won't use consumer gear ever again if I can help it.

Having said all that I recommended the Google system to a buddy and he loves it. I hesitate with Netgear for the reasons everyone has already said, but I've got no experience with their mesh stuff so it could be awesome, but a lot of those types of products get left behind when it comes to security updates.

Sadly consumers don't really know what they are missing when it comes to quality network gear. I feel like we can all realate to this on another topic...

Consumers are targeted by sellers of cheap crap as a way to sell tons of cheap crap but it comes with so much mystery that most will believe anything that sounds plausible to their non-technical minds. No ISP is honest when it comes to telling customers what they need to know, they just decide on a plan and steam on with their usual terrible customer and tech support.

Customers are often at the mercy of their integrators, who may work for someone who doesn't see the value of in-depth training, installers who don't understand what they're doing and manufacturers that don't provide much training- just sales points and buzz words.

I have to say- Spectrum seems to have stepped up to the plate, lately. I have had better interactions with them and it leaves me with hope for the future. That may change later today- I'll be working at a large house that will be getting 6 cable boxes and Spectrum needs to activate the service and check out the cabling that was done badly by Time Warner. Two million dollar property with spaghetti all over the exterior.

Did you turn off the radio in your U-Verse gateway? That seems to prevent some issues, but not all. I hated mine and between that and their CS/Tech support, I gave up and went to Spectrum. I would like to have gotten something for the immense amount of wasted time on the phone with them.

 

[highfigh]

I've a Ubiquiti UniFi setup that I'm happy with, and works better than the Netgear router I used earlier, but it does require some network knowledge/skills to setup and maintain.

My setup is the USG 3P router, one AP-NanoHD, Cloudkey gen2, and three 8-port switches (two with PoE). Since the AP can be powered with PoE it is easier to place it where the signal gives good coverage, and the AP is small and unobtrusive. Luckily, I have fiber and do not have a crappy gateway I am forced to use.



That is understandable, but that gear quickly becomes expensive and often require more knowledge to setup/maintain than the ordinary consumer has.

Even PoE is quite nice and can greatly easy installation of AP's in places where there are no power outlets nearby.

The UBNT dashboard is a real help but people who think they know how to deal with WiFi and other network issues are oblivious to its existence. The husband of one of my clients came along about the time I was finishing the installation at her house and he had some D-Link stuff that he basically insisted I use. It was a problem from the start and then, he started replacing things and being very passive-aggressive when something went wrong. He turned a working network into a train wreck.

How often do you need to reboot the system, or is it set up to self-heal?

 

[Trell]

The UBNT dashboard is a real help but people who think they know how to deal with WiFi and other network issues are oblivious to its existence. The husband of one of my clients came along about the time I was finishing the installation at her house and he had some D-Link stuff that he basically insisted I use. It was a problem from the start and then, he started replacing things and being very passive-aggressive when something went wrong. He turned a working network into a train wreck.

How often do you need to reboot the system, or is it set up to self-heal?

Apart from the reboots during firmware update, only a few times as part of testing. That said, this is only a small home network with only a few mobile phones and one PC as WiFi clients with everything else hard wired (including Chromecast, receiver, printer).

 

[panteragstk]

Consumers are targeted by sellers of cheap crap as a way to sell tons of cheap crap but it comes with so much mystery that most will believe anything that sounds plausible to their non-technical minds. No ISP is honest when it comes to telling customers what they need to know, they just decide on a plan and steam on with their usual terrible customer and tech support.

Customers are often at the mercy of their integrators, who may work for someone who doesn't see the value of in-depth training, installers who don't understand what they're doing and manufacturers that don't provide much training- just sales points and buzz words.

I have to say- Spectrum seems to have stepped up to the plate, lately. I have had better interactions with them and it leaves me with hope for the future. That may change later today- I'll be working at a large house that will be getting 6 cable boxes and Spectrum needs to activate the service and check out the cabling that was done badly by Time Warner. Two million dollar property with spaghetti all over the exterior.

Did you turn off the radio in your U-Verse gateway? That seems to prevent some issues, but not all. I hated mine and between that and their CS/Tech support, I gave up and went to Spectrum. I would like to have gotten something for the immense amount of wasted time on the phone with them.

Everything that can be disabled is disabled on the u-verse gateway. A firmware update broke DMZ Passthrough so I have to use DHCP to get my Sophos router an internet connection. Passthrough will give the WAN IP to the router, but won't give an internet connection.

 

[highfigh]

Everything that can be disabled is disabled on the u-verse gateway. A firmware update broke DMZ Passthrough so I have to use DHCP to get my Sophos router an internet connection. Passthrough will give the WAN IP to the router, but won't give an internet connection.

One of the many reasons I dropped ATT.

 

[panteragstk]

One of the many reasons I dropped ATT.

Yeah, but nobody can touch gigabit internet for less than $75 a month.

 

[rojo]

The UBNT dashboard is a real help but people who think they know how to deal with WiFi and other network issues are oblivious to its existence. The husband of one of my clients came along about the time I was finishing the installation at her house and he had some D-Link stuff that he basically insisted I use. It was a problem from the start and then, he started replacing things and being very passive-aggressive when something went wrong. He turned a working network into a train wreck.

How often do you need to reboot the system, or is it set up to self-heal?

Self-heal! LOL! I never knew that was a thing until a dug an old D-Link or Belkin or Trendnet or similar crap wireless N router out while dumpster diving at my local waste management facility about a year or so ago. The first time I dug around in its web interface and found the self-heal feature, my curiosity was piqued. A few seconds later when I realized all the feature offered was a scheduled reboot, I was both horrified and impressed. Those glorious bastard devs with their enormous brass testicles fully embraced the buggy instability of their firmware and said, "Look! Automatic reboots. You're welcome." Imagine if Windows' TCP/IP stack mysteriously started refusing connections after you've browsed 30 websites; then to fix the problem Microsoft released a patch that scheduled a weekly reboot of your computer. That's basically what D-Link or whoever did with their crap routers. I'm in awe.

You're more patient than I am. I probably would've responded to his passive aggressive jibes with active aggression. Was that malicious compliance on your part? If so, well-played sir.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yeah, but nobody can touch gigabit internet for less than $75 a month.

That is an incredible price for the US. Where I live Comcast is the only alternative, and they want $300/month to get past 400Mbps download speeds. In Orange County, CA, Google Fiber was about $100/month, before taxes and fees, if I remember the offer.

 

[panteragstk]

That is an incredible price for the US. Where I live Comcast is the only alternative, and they want $300/month to get past 400Mbps download speeds. In Orange County, CA, Google Fiber was about $100/month, before taxes and fees, if I remember the offer.

I was quite surprised it was that low and had almost no fees. I get a discount on Att through work, but I think it only applies to wireless.

 

[Trell]

Self-heal! LOL! I never knew that was a thing until a dug an old D-Link or Belkin or Trendnet or similar crap wireless N router out while dumpster diving at my local waste management facility about a year or so ago. The first time I dug around in its web interface and found the self-heal feature, my curiosity was piqued. A few seconds later when I realized all the feature offered was a scheduled reboot, I was both horrified and impressed. ...

"Self healing" in the sense of scheduled rebooting sounds like compensating for crappy firmware, but some manufacturers market this term for selecting less crowded wifi channels on a regular basis. I guess it has to be scheduled as wifi connections has to be turned of while the router is scanning for channels, unless it has some extra radios just for this (not very likely ). I would not surprised that the router will reboot as well, as some routers (like the Netgear I used to have) rebooted for just about any config changes

Setting up Self Healing feature on a Belkin router

 

[highfigh]

Self-heal! LOL! I never knew that was a thing until a dug an old D-Link or Belkin or Trendnet or similar crap wireless N router out while dumpster diving at my local waste management facility about a year or so ago. The first time I dug around in its web interface and found the self-heal feature, my curiosity was piqued. A few seconds later when I realized all the feature offered was a scheduled reboot, I was both horrified and impressed. Those glorious bastard devs with their enormous brass testicles fully embraced the buggy instability of their firmware and said, "Look! Automatic reboots. You're welcome." Imagine if Windows' TCP/IP stack mysteriously started refusing connections after you've browsed 30 websites; then to fix the problem Microsoft released a patch that scheduled a weekly reboot of your computer. That's basically what D-Link or whoever did with their crap routers. I'm in awe.

You're more patient than I am. I probably would've responded to his passive aggressive jibes with active aggression. Was that malicious compliance on your part? If so, well-played sir.

Self-heal just reboots when the router stops seeing a connection to the internet and that prevents a lot of trouble calls- if someone has to drive to a client's house for this, the value is never seen because the cost of using a company vehicle is higher than most people think, or would believe. You know how annoying it is to hear "Please unplug the modem"? It's annoying, but it works.

Malicious compliance? No- his wife was a client long before he came along and other than being a bit of a pinhead, it's not much of an annoyance. Besides- she understands that he causes these problems and she pays me for my time. She basically just rolls her eyes when she tells me this stuff- one time, he couldn't figure out how to play music in the master bathroom, so he started pressing buttons, which didn't help because it has a universal remote and one of the buttons was the power switch for the power amp, which prevented the muting volume controls from working. She told me "I had to talk him off the ledge yesterday" but I only needed a couple of minutes to get it working.

 

[highfigh]

Yeah, but nobody can touch gigabit internet for less than $75 a month.

I don't care and it's not available to me, so.....

I'm on the 200Mbps plan from Spectrum and, other than the WiFi being much slower, it's fine- most of my stuff is hard-wired and i'm not doing 4K, anyway.

The amount of my time they have wasted is beyond anything that could ever be considered 'acceptable'. I called Tech Support to tell them that my WiFi was power-cycling, then went on to tell them that I didn't lose the connection when my computer was wired- their response was to tell me they needed to schedule an appointment for someone to come out to check the line between the pole and my house but first, he told me that I needed to reboot the gateway. I was close enough that I could hear a click immediately before losing the internet connection, but I could still ping the router and I had already rebooted. I told him these details and he insisted, so I asked what logic made him arrive at that conclusion. I asked if it was something stupid like a bad wall wart and he assured me it couldn't be, but it was fine when I used the power supply from the new gateway.He eventually told me I would need a replacement, for $99 and I told him I wouldn't be paying anything to replace their crappy equipment. It took three months to get the charge removed.

I called one time and it only took seven minutes- I didn't know what to do with the rest of the hour I was expecting it to waste.

 

[Trell]

Malicious compliance? No- his wife was a client long before he came along and other than being a bit of a pinhead, it's not much of an annoyance. Besides- she understands that he causes these problems and she pays me for my time. She basically just rolls her eyes when she tells me this stuff- one time, he couldn't figure out how to play music in the master bathroom, so he started pressing buttons, which didn't help because it has a universal remote and one of the buttons was the power switch for the power amp, which prevented the muting volume controls from working. She told me "I had to talk him off the ledge yesterday" but I only needed a couple of minutes to get it working.

Now, this is getting a bit off topic, but did she not get the memo that men are naturally gifted to work with technology and that she is threatening his male identity and self esteem? Next thing you'll tell me she even has her own income and earns more than her husband

In any case, the husband gives you repeat business, but I guess this can require some sensitive handling

 

[highfigh]

Now, this is getting a bit off topic, but did she not get the memo that men are naturally gifted to work with technology and that she is threatening his male identity and self esteem? Next thing you'll tell me she even has her own income and earns more than her husband

In any case, the husband gives you repeat business, but I guess this can require some sensitive handling

He causes repeat business but he doesn't understand what Dirty Harry meant when he said "a man has got to know his limitations".

WRT the last comment- I would like to make one payment of her quarterly estimated tax.

 

[Trell]

He causes repeat business but he doesn't understand what Dirty Harry meant when he said "a man has got to know his limitations".

WRT the last comment- I would like to make one payment of her quarterly estimated tax.

Yeah, a variation of this is known as the Dunning–Kruger effect, from the work of two social psychologist.

Sorry @Swerd to hijack your thread.

 

[highfigh]

Yeah, a variation of this is known as the Dunning–Kruger effect, from the work of two social psychologist.

Sorry @Swerd to hijack your thread.

My problem with this guy is that he's an engineer- he should know how to find the information and use some amount of logic to determine what caused the problems. Jumping to the conclusion that a mouse chewed a cable is ridiculous! Not knowing how to properly connect his brand new router is a bit pathetic, really. That is, however, a guy thing but it would have been prevented if he had RTFM.

 

[Trell]

My problem with this guy is that he's an engineer- he should know how to find the information and use some amount of logic to determine what caused the problems. Jumping to the conclusion that a mouse chewed a cable is ridiculous! Not knowing how to properly connect his brand new router is a bit pathetic, really. That is, however, a guy thing but it would have been prevented if he had RTFM.

As a software developer I feel your frustration as the last thing many will do is to read the fine manual or any kind of instructions, for that matter. Then as you write, there are some people whose background you could very reasonably expect more from.

I confess to be a nerd that actually reads manuals and other documentations, and least try to understand and improve, though I fail now and then