Let's talk modems & routers

[Irvrobinson]

I guess I resent being called a technophobe .

I spent a long career as a biochemist, and I always regarded scientific gear as tools to be used, not as means to an end. As a grad student in biochemistry, before the days of desktop PCs, there was a guy across the hall from my lab, who fancied himself a 'real biophysicist'. He once was considered an expert in using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy to study properties of biological molecules, mainly small proteins. By the time I was there, he no longer did any interesting science, but he spent great effort & money 'computerizing' his lab. His lab benches may have been clean & dry, but his electronic gear was state-of-the-art for the late 1970s. Scientifically he was dead in the water.

Later in the 1980s I taught myself to use computers (Macs & PCs). They are useful tools that allow you do something more interesting. I was always wary of getting too absorbed in them, as they were not what I really did. I regard home sound systems similarly. The electronic gear is only a means to allow me to listen to music. Replacing electronic gear only because it's obsolete is a distraction from my real intent. I'm not really a technophobe, but I do resent the rapid obsolescence and the sometimes sloppy engineering of modern 'tech' gear. (Edit: Irv later pointed out the differences in the 'tech' world between computer hardware engineering and the often sloppy software development. I agree.)

Now I'm getting to be an old guy – only 5-10 years away from hollering "get off my lawn" at anyone near my yard . I may know a lot about the biochemical mechanisms of modern anti-cancer drugs. But I also know there are others who don't. I know enough to not accuse them of being luddites or technophobes.

Now you can get off my lawn!

A quote from post #1:

I'm worn out from learning about all the other technobabble...

I know you're a highly trained scientist, and I know you can't be a scientist without using computers these days, but what other conclusion was I to draw?

And remember who you're talking to. I live for technobabble.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

@TLS Guy just like you have a fascination with certain amps (*cough*QUAD*cough*), I am strongly fascinated with Google wifi technology. Mesh requires a bit more than just brute power but takes a bit of smarter algorithms and Google is well known for having the best and smartest algorithms. Like I've said Netgear Orbi mesh is fast. Likely faster than Google wifi, but nothing tells me success like two facts:
a) This the system that Our Sr. Network engineer chose to install in his home - this guy definitely know his networking.
b)I was able to assist remotely on the phone to help install multi-node google wifi setup to near 70-year-old gent. It's that simple to set up.

Like I've said, there countless ways to set up home network and wifi. I, for example, use a software-based firewall, a 10gig switch which does some routing and few other network devices as VMs for various functions. My Wifi is Ubiquity enterprise APs and these are a huge step up from Asus. Would I recommend it to non-IT person - no, but it works for me very well.
I had a very bad experience with NetGear a few times and I won't step on that rake again but doesn't mean that you should no try your own luck with it.

 

[Swerd]

However my brother's large rambling Georgian house at Langely Kent has always been an absolute nightmare as regards Wi-Fi coverage.

We put on the NetGear Orbi mesh system on a visit December 2018. The problem was solved for the first time. Coverage is good over the whole house and it has been stable

I have had the same experience here.

Thanks for the Netgear Orbi mesh recommendation. It's good to know that it works in the UK where people drive on the left and on this side of the Atlantic where people (usually) drive on the right.

Is that house "Georgian" because of it's architecture style or because it was built in the era of Kings George I-II-III? If adapting WiFi was a nightmare, what was it like to add electricity, central heat, and running water ?

 

[Swerd]

And remember who you're talking to. I live for technobabble.

One man's technobabble is another man's paycheck.

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy just like you have a fascination with certain amps (*cough*QUAD*cough*), I am strongly fascinated with Google wifi technology. Mesh requires a bit more than just brute power but takes a bit of smarter algorithms and Google is well known for having the best and smartest algorithms. Like I've said Netgear Orbi mesh is fast. Likely faster than Google wifi, but nothing tells me success like two facts:
a) This the system that Our Sr. Network engineer chose to install in his home - this guy definitely know his networking.
b)I was able to assist remotely on the phone to help install multi-node google wifi setup to near 70-year-old gent. It's that simple to set up.

Like I've said, there countless ways to set up home network and wifi. I, for example, use a software-based firewall, a 10gig switch which does some routing and few other network devices as VMs for various functions. My Wifi is Ubiquity enterprise APs and these are a huge step up from Asus. Would I recommend it to non-IT person - no, but it works for me very well.
I had a very bad experience with NetGear a few times and I won't step on that rake again but doesn't mean that you should no try your own luck with it.

I was nervous about it also and my view has been identical to yours concerning Netgear. However my eldest son is an experienced software developer. As part of his job he also has to run big international meetings, including with sites around the world at the same time. We were in England to see my mother one more time before her death. It was during that visit that we were staying at Langely House. He said the problem there could be fixed with a mesh system. He is very much familiar with the Google and NetGear systems. He feels the NetGear is significantly better than the Google system on all counts. So that is what we used. So I have experience of two installs and there have been zero issues with both systems. So all I can report is my experience, and the advice of my son whom I believe to be very knowledgeable and experienced in these matters. So I can only report what I know from these two installations. All I can say is the both perform like no other systems I have had experience with before.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the Netgear Orbi mesh recommendation. It's good to know that it works in the UK where people drive on the left and on this side of the Atlantic where people (usually) drive on the right.

Is that house "Georgian" because of it's architecture style or because it was built in the era of Kings George I-II-III? If adapting WiFi was a nightmare, what was it like to add electricity, central heat, and running water ?

It is because it is an old Georgian farm house from the Georgian period.

In Europe they are used to dealing with old properties. Homes are updated and changed through generations.

This is my other brother's house.

That property is largely Tudor. However the basement/cellar is flint stone. There is a very built in cloths chest on one of the bedrooms, that has old lead pulls embossed with the emblems of the houses of Lancaster and York. This suggests part of the house goes back to the Wars of the Roses.1455 to 1485.

Then we have these very old "wool" towns like Lavenham Suffolk

Then of course the house were I grew up and now for sale. That is pre Georgian and Queen Anne vintage.

My parents restored the house from a ruin starting in 1952.

As far as Wi-Fi the issue is that internal walls are usually plaster over brick or stone and they are not good for radio transmission.

 

[Swerd]

As far as Wi-Fi the issue is that internal walls are usually plaster over brick or stone and they are not good for radio transmission.

I can see how that would make things difficult. So drywall and wood frames are good for something.

It's interesting to reflect how poorly we see into the future as we build our houses. Mine was built in 1993. I wired all 4 bedrooms for telephones (phone lines and RJ11 jacks) plus ceiling fans with wall switches rather than pull chains. Only one of those telephone jacks ever got used, in the master bedroom – cordless phones soon made them unnecessary. At the time, I don't think I would have imagined installing Ethernet wiring. However, making it easy to later hang ceiling fans was a great idea.

I also pat myself on the head for building the house with 2 separate HVAC systems, one upstairs and the other downstairs. It was easy and inexpensive to build it as the house was going up. Modifying it after the fact would have been much more expensive.

Back to the subject of modems & routers. Thanks everyone for the input and discussion. It helped me understand what I need to do. My plan is to buy an Arris SB6183 modem and a Google Mesh Router. If needed, I'll get a 2nd router. Once I install them, I'll let you know how it works.

I noticed this morning, I have a phone call scheduled with the Social Security Administration later this month. I will finally set up my benefits. I made that appointment so long ago that I told them to call on my landline VoIP phone, the one I want to drop. So that phone and all it's damn telemarketers has to soldier on a few more weeks. Just saying the words Social Security Admin. makes me feel really old. I'm glad I can compensate by saying DOCSIS 3.0 and Mesh Router .

 

[Swerd]

In Costco today, I saw a 4-pack of Google Mesh Routers for $300.

I like the $75/router price, but I don't want to spend $300.

 

[its phillip]

I am happy with our Orbi mesh system. I forget what modem I am using however. Amazon has the router + extender on sale for $280 https://smile.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Orbi-Ultra-Performance-Whole-System/dp/B01K4CZOBS/

 

[GO-NAD!]

That property is largely Tudor. However the basement/cellar is flint stone. There is a very built in cloths chest on one of the bedrooms, that has old lead pulls embossed with the emblems of the houses of Lancaster and York. This suggests part of the house goes back to the Wars of the Roses.1455 to 1485.

As far as Wi-Fi the issue is that internal walls are usually plaster over brick or stone and they are not good for radio transmission.

So, do they have to wash their hands after every time they get dressed?

The exterior walls of my house are of brick construction and the Wi Fi signal out on my deck is spotty, at best.

 

[GO-NAD!]

In Costco today, I saw a 4-pack of Google Mesh Routers for $300.

I like the $75/router price, but I don't want to spend $300.

I remember a few years ago, when having WiFi issues and calling our ISP for help, we were told they couldn't diagnose our problem because we weren't using "their" router. It was probably BS, but we ended up replacing the router (which we owned) with a rented one from the ISP. Our problem was resolved, but I can't help thinking that we're pi$$ing away our hard-earned dollars on it.

I probably should do some research and could probably buy something that would work as well, while saving money over the long run.

Good luck with your own quest.

 

[highfigh]

I can see how that would make things difficult. So drywall and wood frames are good for something.

It's interesting to reflect how poorly we see into the future as we build our houses. Mine was built in 1993. I wired all 4 bedrooms for telephones (phone lines and RJ11 jacks) plus ceiling fans with wall switches rather than pull chains. Only one of those telephone jacks ever got used, in the master bedroom – cordless phones soon made them unnecessary. At the time, I don't think I would have imagined installing Ethernet wiring. However, making it easy to later hang ceiling fans was a great idea.

I also pat myself on the head for building the house with 2 separate HVAC systems, one upstairs and the other downstairs. It was easy and inexpensive to build it as the house was going up. Modifying it after the fact would have been much more expensive.

Back to the subject of modems & routers. Thanks everyone for the input and discussion. It helped me understand what I need to do. My plan is to buy an Arris SB6183 modem and a Google Mesh Router. If needed, I'll get a 2nd router. Once I install them, I'll let you know how it works.

I noticed this morning, I have a phone call scheduled with the Social Security Administration later this month. I will finally set up my benefits. I made that appointment so long ago that I told them to call on my landline VoIP phone, the one I want to drop. So that phone and all it's damn telemarketers has to soldier on a few more weeks. Just saying the words Social Security Admin. makes me feel really old. I'm glad I can compensate by saying DOCSIS 3.0 and Mesh Router .

Did you use Cat5e for the phone lines? If so, just replace the RJ11 ports with RJ45 and you'll have four additional ethernet ports for placing APs for the mesh network. If it's Cat3, just punch it down to pairs 1 & 2, which are the only wires used in a 10/100 network, which WILL do gigabit up to about 100 feet. The twist rate is different, so that would make some difference, but it WILL work for ethernet.

You could have added zone controllers to a single HVAC system to do the same as two separate systems, but not perform two separate functions (heat and cool at the same time).

A second router? NOPE! You don't want to connect a router behind a router- it would need to be put in Bridge mode and NAT needs to be disabled. 'Double NAT' doesn't work. If you were thinking of doing that so you would have more ports, you need a network switch and they can be used at the end on each cable connected to a port, with any number of their own ports. The other thing you don't want is to have devices on too many layers, e.g., router--> switch--> switch --> switch -->switch--> device. That shows 5 layers, but 4 is usually accepted as the maximum. Fewer is best. If a router, like Eero, has only one additional port, it's supposed to have a switch connected when additional devices and APs are hard-wired. Always best to hardwire as much as possible and use WiFi for hand-held devices and the ones that don't have ethernet ports.

 

[highfigh]

In Costco today, I saw a 4-pack of Google Mesh Routers for $300.

I like the $75/router price, but I don't want to spend $300.

The days of $35 routers are over. The demands on residential networks are far higher than ever before and it's only going to increase the need for more robust network hardware.

 

[Irvrobinson]

A second router? NOPE! You don't want to connect a router behind a router- it would need to be put in Bridge mode and NAT needs to be disabled. 'Double NAT' doesn't work. If you were thinking of doing that so you would have more ports, you need a network switch and they can be used at the end on each cable connected to a port, with any number of their own ports. The other thing you don't want is to have devices on too many layers, e.g., router--> switch--> switch --> switch -->switch--> device. That shows 5 layers, but 4 is usually accepted as the maximum. Fewer is best. If a router, like Eero, has only one additional port, it's supposed to have a switch connected when additional devices and APs are hard-wired. Always best to hardwire as much as possible and use WiFi for hand-held devices and the ones that don't have ethernet ports.

You're misunderstanding. Swerd is talking about adding another Google Wifi device, which becomes a second node in the mesh. To IP, it all looks like a single distributed router.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

In Costco today, I saw a 4-pack of Google Mesh Routers for $300.

I like the $75/router price, but I don't want to spend $300.

that's a great deal. a) cheap b) Costco has awesome return policy c) you could buy the 4 pack. install two and sell two if you don't need them. get at least $150 back

 

[highfigh]

You're misunderstanding. Swerd is talking about adding another Google Wifi device, which becomes a second node in the mesh. To IP, it all looks like a single distributed router.

I know, but the additional pieces are called AP and only one acts as the router. I have installed Eero and they work the same way. Eero really wants to be the router, but they only recently came up with a way for the first piece to work behind something like ATT's U-Verse gateway, which doesn't have an easy way to be put in Bridge mode (ATT just doesn't want that). I like Eero's app- I can see the site easily and it shows the speed & all of the connected devices. If I need to reset it, that's easy, too. Not cheap, though.

BTW- Harmony says their remote hubs don't work as well with mesh an they do with the more common router/access points. I suspect many other things are the same and I saw something about a webinar for Sonos and some kind of mesh that's not theirs.

 

[Swerd]

that's a great deal. a) cheap b) Costco has awesome return policy c) you could buy the 4 pack. install two and sell two if you don't need them. get at least $150 back

I thought of that while I was in the store … for about a tenth of a second … until I decided naah. I'd rather spend $99 for a single router, and find out if it works alone or needs a 2nd one.

Costco also had Netgear Orbi mesh routers in various sized multi-packs, but I don't recall their prices. It might have been three for $280? They were close to the prices I saw on Amazon.

This is all academic now. Yesterday after returning from Costco, I ordered the Arris modem and Google router from Amazon. They should arrive later today.

 

[highfigh]

Anyone who has or is considering Nest and/or Google Assistant needs to read this-

https://www.the-ambient.com/news/works-with-nest-shut-down-google-assistant-1583

 

[Swerd]

Anyone who has or is considering Nest and/or Google Assistant needs to read this-
https://www.the-ambient.com/news/works-with-nest-shut-down-google-assistant-1583

It don't think that affects me, but thanks for bringing it to our attention.

That news reinforces my wish to avoid being an early adapter of new tech like that. It obviously needed major revision.

[BEGIN RANT//: Nest thermostat]In the particular case of the Nest thermostat, I cannot understand why anyone would think it's a good idea, even if it worked as originally intended. How can fine tuning the temperature settings with a smart thermostat – room by room – manage to make a whole-house central HVAC system more efficient? Even if you have a larger house with a 2 or 3-zone system, how can that work more efficiently? It seems to me it would require an independent HVAC system in each room. Throwing "smarter" control software at the problem cannot make today's HVAC system(s) work more efficiently. Maybe there are newly developed heating & cooling systems that differ significantly from what I know that might make better use of such controls. But trying to use a Nest thermostat on any older whole-house or multi-room system, makes no sense at all.

And then there're those pesky problems of being too early an adapter of not-smart-enough WiFi devices, in this case a thermostat that opens your home to online hacking .[END RANT]

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Most of the claimed efficiency comes from the ease of programming (day/night etc.. settings) and automatic adjustments then no one home.