Opinions

[Thor1030]

Better AV amp? Will it make a difference?
What I currently have.
Pioneer Elite vsx-LX103,
Speakers-Paradigm Studio 100 v3..fronts
Elac uni-fi surrounds, Elac center.
Sony es1000 dvd.

 

[ryanosaur]

Generally accepted that the electronics don't affect the sound... at least once you hit a certain level of electronics. That includes external amps, AVRs, AVPs, Integrateds, DACs.... Sound Quality is the realm of the speaker... the individual drivers (transducers), the crossovers, the cabinet build, and the interaction of the soundwaves and your room acoustics.

 

[lovinthehd]

Might get a more capable amp section by going to a flagship avr but that may or may not be noticeable at your listening levels with your speakers....

 

[Thor1030]

Generally accepted that the electronics don't affect the sound... at least once you hit a certain level of electronics. That includes external amps, AVRs, AVPs, Integrateds, DACs.... Sound Quality is the realm of the speaker... the individual drivers (transducers), the crossovers, the cabinet build, and the interaction of the soundwaves and your room acoustics.

So let me understand, better electronics does not change anything? Then why do people spend so much for it? If an amp has the correct power to drive speakers then that’s it?

 

[Ponzio]

So let me understand, better electronics does not change anything? Then why do people spend so much for it? If an amp has the correct power to drive speakers then that’s it?

If we're talking in generalities, yep. Though I have noticed that in some speaker models they "open up", per se, with more power.

 

[PENG]

If we're talking in generalities, yep. Though I have noticed that in some speaker models they "open up", per se, with more power.

Agreed, in general but would like to add that the "open up" or not thing depends also on room size, seating distance, and sound pressure requirements. I am now stating the obvious though..

 

[PENG]

So let me understand, better electronics does not change anything? Then why do people spend so much for it? If an amp has the correct power to drive speakers then that’s it?

I am interested hearing your own answer to this question if you don't mind even if you have to take an educated guess, base on logic may be..

 

[ryanosaur]

So let me understand, better electronics does not change anything? Then why do people spend so much for it? If an amp has the correct power to drive speakers then that’s it?

Up to a certain point... a $100 avr and a $1500 AVR will perform differently. But $1500 and $2100? Is my SR6012 and the SR7012 so drastically different that I would notice something for that $700 extra I could have spent. At that level, you see incremental increases in amp-stage power output, and sometimes a small yet arguably insignificant change in feature set/technology. What I think people pay for at that level is appearance, ergonomics, brand appeal, and perceived value. How different is the SR80xx from the SR60xx? Yes it’s the flagship model, and may have a DAC upgrade, it will have stronger amp stage, extra channels... is it worth twice the mark of the 6012 (2999 vs 1499)? Is it worth 3x more than I paid for my 6012 on sale?
Per my own experience, this difference was readily on display when I switched from our old HTIB to the Marantz. Using the same Kleenex-Box speakers from the Onkyo kit, the SQ upgrade in electronics was night and day (audibly lower distortion, better processing, cleaner power, etc). I would not expect to hear that again if I switched to another different premium level AVR or AVP, much less upgrade to a flagship level product.
@Ponzio mentioned power-to-speakers that allow them to open up. I have heard this, but never seen any type of quantification of what that means. On the other hand, depending on the impedance characteristics of a speaker, some may dip low into 3ohms for low frequency performance, thus requiring a beefy amp with solid stability at low impedance to handle that load. This may be the one instance where the quality of electronics is of significant importance, but only if you have, say, 4ohm speakers that spend such time at 3ohm in the lower part of their FR.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I will say that when I had a $500 Kenwood home theater in a box kit 20 or so years ago, the whole thing sounded terrible. I just didn't know it.

Then I got some Def Tech BP30 speakers. I didn't have my new A/V receiver yet, so I hooked up my new speakers (actually a full 5.1 set of DefTechs) to my cheap Kenwood receiver. The sound completely blew me away with how much better it was.

A month or so later, my Yamaha RX-Z1 came in. This was a $3,000 A/V receiver, so I was all set for just how much more amazing things would sound.

Answer: Not at all different.

Yes, the new receiver could play louder, for longer, without issue, but at normal listening levels, the Kenwood and the Yamaha sounded quite similar. The Yamaha had all the fancy surround modes, and actually supported audio formats the Kenwood didn't, but as far as actual sound... It just sounded the same.

The speakers, by far, made the biggest improvement to our listening environment.

That's about as real world as I can get on this.

An outboard amplifier will give you plenty of power, if you need it. If you crank your speakers all the time, then it will support that sound for hours on end, but if you don't crank it up, then the Pioneer's amp section will do just fine. Either way, sound should be the same at normal listening levels.

 

[lovinthehd]

So let me understand, better electronics does not change anything? Then why do people spend so much for it? If an amp has the correct power to drive speakers then that’s it?

Better electronics may last longer if they are of sufficiently higher quality, better electronics may mean more features/connectivity/dsp options (and some could say the best electronics are the simplest, back to the straight wire with gain scenario). Consumer electronics may not be as robustly or simply built as they once were; an avr today more resembles a computer than it does a 2ch receiver from the 70s/80s. People buy a lot of stuff without knowing really why, especially in audio IMO (high end audio particularly has a lot of bullshit going on).. Simple things like speaker wattage ratings alone can confuse people as to what amp they need; they may not even consider the impedance characteristics of the speakers, the sensitivity of the speakers or even determine their own listening levels as to what amp would be appropriate....it's a constantly asked question here and in other audio fora/groups.

Back to your original question about whether you'd see an improvement by changing avr....what is lacking now? Does it drive your speakers to desired levels cleanly, i.e. without audible clipping or distortion? Are you looking for more features/different connectivity options or is it merely the amp section you're concerned about? One thing you can do with an avr purchase if flexible amplification is needed is to get one with a full set of pre-outs so you can add an external amp later (your 103 doesn't have but sub and zone pre-outs, tho).

 

[Good4it]

So let me understand, better electronics does not change anything? Then why do people spend so much for it? If an amp has the correct power to drive speakers then that’s it?

They think high-end stuff has a better grade of components.
]

 

[ryanosaur]

They think high-end stuff has a better grade of components.

Or perhaps better implementation... but only up to a certain point. Again. This is where the concept of “perceived value” comes into to play.
If I make a menu item priced at 15 per plate, or 21 per plate... let’s say shrimp bisque. Which price point will sell better?
(Hint: it’s a set up!)

 

[PENG]

How different is the SR80xx from the SR60xx? Yes it’s the flagship model, and may have a DAC upgrade, it will have stronger amp stage, extra channels... is it worth twice the mark of the 6012 (2999 vs 1499)? Is it worth 3x more than I paid for my 6012 on sale?

I guess it is good to know (for you anyway) that the flagship SR8012 does not have a DAC chip upgrade. Even the SR5012 has the same chip. One thing Marantz (and Denon too obviously) has done since at least the SR6011, is to standardize more on the preamp side, such that from the flag ship down to the lowest model, the preamp/volume control that used to be the bottle net (based on Dr. Rich's findings) are the same. Then since the SR5012, they even standardized the DAC chip for the entire line.

As it is now, only the flagship Denon and the Marantz AV controller has the higher end AK4490 DAC chip. That still does not mean those two units will sound audibly better than the much more affordable SR6012 because the AK4458 is unlikely the weakest link anyway.

 

[Thor1030]

My pioneer was $300 new that is their entry level AVR. So before I went out an bought a Marantz 7013 or the Pioneer Elite 701, was looking for opinions. From what I’m reading no need to make the jump. I was even looking at Rotel but again no improvement. I’m not blessed with the perfect room and have to make due with what I have.. My system sounds good, sure some tweaking now that I got the SVS sp3000 but as with allot of people always looking to improve.

 

[PENG]

My pioneer was $300 new that is their entry level AVR. So before I went out an bought a Marantz 7013 or the Pioneer Elite 701, was looking for opinions. From what I’m reading no need to make the jump. I was even looking at Rotel but again no improvement. I’m not blessed with the perfect room and have to make due with what I have.. My system sounds good, sure some tweaking now that I got the SVS sp3000 but as with allot of people always looking to improve.

When you ready, consider the one year old models that may still be available new in a sealed box with full warranty. A valid example of that is the SR7012 for $999 Amazon.com price, that's half the original list price.