Custom Front Speakers/Advice

[bjmate]

Hi All,

I require a little help.

Currently my surround sound system consists of a Yamaha RX-V681 receiver and a Linkman 7.2 speaker setup with only 5.1 being used (now i have probably scared everyone away)

To be honest i don't mind the sound coming from the setup, but i know it could be better (so does everyone else without even hearing it )

The issue i have is the size of the floor standing speakers. I have a large lounge room (as old houses go) but there are only a couple of places to position the speakers which are sub optimal (i'm being kind)

I have space next to my TV for the front left/right speakers but there is no way i am buying speakers to fit there, unless they are tiny units.

I was considering builder my own fronts (and centre to match from the info i have seen on here) but am a bit lost when it comes to drivers. there seems to be heaps of info on box design, but considering the amount of drivers available can see why it isn't as easy as a simple guide.

The max external box dimensions would be 6.5 x 13.75 x 31.5 inch (I'm Australian so converted my dims to inch)

I don't think i would have a big enough box for 3 way? but would obviously like these to be as close to the sound of a floor speaker as possible (i'm probably pushing it)

any advice with driver selection would be great (or made speakers to fit for that matter)

Also just to make this more difficult, I live in Australia so may not have all options available unless i import of course.

Cost isn't a huge deal, but like most would love to keep it down to as low as possible. But being in Aus i may not have many options. I have noticed speakers that are $200USD in USA are $1000+AUD in Australia

If i do make the fronts and they work out, i will more then likely build some surrounds as well.

Thanks in advance,

BJ

 

[lovinthehd]

Speakers are more than just the drivers and the box....there's this little thing called a crossover or are you thinking of actively bi- or tri-amping some speakers? Passive crossover design isn't really something that allows just slapping some various drivers in a box together...

For DIY speakers probably best to follow a proven design, not just the selection of drivers and box/port details but also the crossover design. Don't know what kind of kits are available in Australia (we have places like diysoundgroup.com, parts-express.com, madisound and a few others). We have a diy subforum here you can check out, avsforum.com has a fairly large subforum, diyaudio.com, some others...

 

[bjmate]

I was aware i would need crossovers, however thought these would need to be matched to the drivers used. I didn't realise there was more to it then that. (apologies for being daft, the seas of text about these subjects gets me lost but I do know sound is part science part art and i'm no good at either )

It's a real bummer seeing all the variety in the US. whether it is driver suppliers, custom made or premade speakers you guys have it all. Then everything in Aus costs a fortune. I think suppliers still use wooden boats to import with lol.

Was really hoping i could build speakers to around those dimensions to suit the space, but if it can't be done then so be it

I have seen a couple of bookshelf speakers that would fit it the width required (the main dimension i will be having issues with) but going off reviews of the available units in Aus they may not be suited for L/R fronts? (however i could be wrong) the likes of Klipsch R-41M or B & W 607 bookshelf

I'll have a look at the DIY section as you mention also.

Thanks

Speakers are more than just the drivers and the box....there's this little thing called a crossover or are you thinking of actively bi- or tri-amping some speakers? Passive crossover design isn't really something that allows just slapping some various drivers in a box together...

For DIY speakers probably best to follow a proven design, not just the selection of drivers and box/port details but also the crossover design. Don't know what kind of kits are available in Australia (we have places like diysoundgroup.com, parts-express.com, madisound and a few others). We have a diy subforum here you can check out, avsforum.com has a fairly large subforum, diyaudio.com, some others...

 

[lovinthehd]

I was aware i would need crossovers, however thought these would need to be matched to the drivers used. I didn't realise there was more to it then that. (apologies for being daft, the seas of text about these subjects gets me lost but I do know sound is part science part art and i'm no good at either )

It's a real bummer seeing all the variety in the US. whether it is driver suppliers, custom made or premade speakers you guys have it all. Then everything in Aus costs a fortune. I think suppliers still use wooden boats to import with lol.

Was really hoping i could build speakers to around those dimensions to suit the space, but if it can't be done then so be it

I have seen a couple of bookshelf speakers that would fit it the width required (the main dimension i will be having issues with) but going off reviews of the available units in Aus they may not be suited for L/R fronts? (however i could be wrong) the likes of Klipsch R-41M or B & W 607 bookshelf

I'll have a look at the DIY section as you mention also.

Thanks

There are off-the shelf crossovers but wouldn't suggest using one as they are very general in nature rather than the specific case which is needed. I do believe there are some diy speaker options down under, as I've chatted with some Aussies in the past but don't remember any particular sources (and don't remember who on here might be from there, think it was mainly at avsforum.com I had those convos). Having the ability to build cabinets can definitely be a plus in diy, tho. We can be spoiled by the flatpack guys with pre-built crossovers, tho!

Active crossovers with sufficient amplification is another way to go, too. I know stuff is expensive down under but it has been done even on a budget, you just gotta find some kindred souls to help out!

 

[Verdinut]

Hi All,

I require a little help.

Currently my surround sound system consists of a Yamaha RX-V681 receiver and a Linkman 7.2 speaker setup with only 5.1 being used (now i have probably scared everyone away)

To be honest i don't mind the sound coming from the setup, but i know it could be better (so does everyone else without even hearing it )

The issue i have is the size of the floor standing speakers. I have a large lounge room (as old houses go) but there are only a couple of places to position the speakers which are sub optimal (i'm being kind)

I have space next to my TV for the front left/right speakers but there is no way i am buying speakers to fit there, unless they are tiny units.

I was considering builder my own fronts (and centre to match from the info i have seen on here) but am a bit lost when it comes to drivers. there seems to be heaps of info on box design, but considering the amount of drivers available can see why it isn't as easy as a simple guide.

The max external box dimensions would be 6.5 x 13.75 x 31.5 inch (I'm Australian so converted my dims to inch)

I don't think i would have a big enough box for 3 way? but would obviously like these to be as close to the sound of a floor speaker as possible (i'm probably pushing it)

any advice with driver selection would be great (or made speakers to fit for that matter)

Also just to make this more difficult, I live in Australia so may not have all options available unless i import of course.

Cost isn't a huge deal, but like most would love to keep it down to as low as possible. But being in Aus i may not have many options. I have noticed speakers that are $200USD in USA are $1000+AUD in Australia

If i do make the fronts and they work out, i will more then likely build some surrounds as well.

Thanks in advance,

BJ

Rod Elliott is in Australia and might be able to help you with some of your projects and give you appropriate suggestions. I trust this man for his expertise and the way that he explains the various complexities of DIY projects and ways to succeed if you want to learn.

I know he is a strong proponent of electronic crossovers, but in his papers he also explains how to build passive crossovers.

http://sound.whsites.net/index2.html

 

[Swerd]

The max external box dimensions would be 6.5 x 13.75 x 31.5 inch

Is that 6.5 inches wide x 13.75 inches deep x 31.5 inches tall?

Those dimensions, especially the 6.5 inches width, are very small. Is there any way you can manage 8 inches (20.3 cm) wide?

 

[bjmate]

I may have to check out avs, however this project might be dead in the water. I might have to do more googling

There are off-the shelf crossovers but wouldn't suggest using one as they are very general in nature rather than the specific case which is needed. I do believe there are some diy speaker options down under, as I've chatted with some Aussies in the past but don't remember any particular sources (and don't remember who on here might be from there, think it was mainly at avsforum.com I had those convos). Having the ability to build cabinets can definitely be a plus in diy, tho. We can be spoiled by the flatpack guys with pre-built crossovers, tho!

Active crossovers with sufficient amplification is another way to go, too. I know stuff is expensive down under but it has been done even on a budget, you just gotta find some kindred souls to help out!

 

[bjmate]

Thank you i will definitely have a look at the link you posted

Rod Elliott is in Australia and might be able to help you with some of your projects and give you appropriate suggestions. I trust this man for his expertise and the way that he explains the various complexities of DIY projects and ways to succeed if you want to learn.

I know he is a strong proponent of electronic crossovers, but in his papers he also explains how to build passive crossovers.

 

[bjmate]

The most i can go in this location is 6.69 inch. I knew this was going to be my main issue

The height i can actually go to is 37.7 inch but i don't think that helps anyway because i'm guessing the width is to house bigger drivers

I don't think there is a better location unless i go ceiling mount speakers

Is that 6.5 inches wide x 13.75 inches deep x 31.5 inches tall?

Those dimensions, especially the 6.5 inches width, are very small. Is there any way you can manage 8 inches (20.3 cm) wide?

 

[DigitalDawn]

You should take a look at Triad Speakers. They make custom speakers to fit into all sorts of odd spaces. If you need any help let me know.

www.triadspeakers.com

 

[Swerd]

The most i can go in this location is 6.69 inch. I knew this was going to be my main issue

The height i can actually go to is 37.7 inch but i don't think that helps anyway because i'm guessing the width is to house bigger drivers

Don’t give up yet, this may be possible. I’m thinking of what’s called an MTM design, mid-woofer – tweeter – mid-woofer. See the links below for photos.

Two reasonably priced MTM good quality do-it-yourself (DIY) kits are available in the USA:

A/V 2 speaker: http://gr-research.com/av-2.aspx​

N3S speaker: http://gr-research.com/n3-1.aspx​

These kits may or may not be available to you in Australia, but I’m using them as examples of what you might be able to build or get built. Both kits use the same size mid-woofer, but the N35 has a more expensive and probably better quality tweeter.

I think you can modify the standard cabinet to fit the space you have available. Let me walk you through my thoughts.

The mid-woofers in these kits, said to be 5.25" diameter (" means inches),require a hole 4.875" (12.4 cm) in diameter for mounting. Typically, an external cabinet width of 8" (20.3 cm) is used to comfortably allow enough space inside. The internal width of these cabinets is 6.5" (0.75" thick walls) and the mid-woofers require 4.875", leaving 0.8125" (2.06 cm) available on each side inside the side walls.

See the cabinet drawing for the N3S speaker http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/neo3S.pdf.

The standard cabinet for the N3S kit, with 0.75" thick walls, has these external dimensions:

8" wide × 10.625" deep × 18.75" tall​

20.3 cm wide × 27 cm deep × 47.6 cm tall​

Your maximum external dimensions are:

6.69" wide × 13.75" deep × 37.7" tall​

17 cm wide × 34.9 cm deep × 95.8 cm tall​

These cabinets are typically made with medium density fiberboard (MDF),and the drawing shows that all outer walls are 0.75" (1.9 cm) thick. If you use thinner MDF side walls, 0.5" (1.27 cm) thick, a speaker cabinet could be built to fit your narrow space.

Start with 17 cm external width​

Subtract 2.54 cm for two side walls (1.27 cm × 2)​

17 – 2.54 = 14.5 cm internal width​

The mid-woofer requires a 12.4 cm hole​

17 – 2.54 – 12.4 = 2.06 remain. That’s 1 cm on each side of the mid-woofer. That's a close fit, but possible.​

​

To get proper bass performance from a narrower cabinet, these cabinets must be deeper and/or taller so that the internal volume is the same as the cabinet in the drawing. I’m too lazy now (see my next post below) to go through those volume calculations, but I think you have enough extra height and/or depth to allow for this.

I hope you could follow all this.

 

[Verdinut]

The most i can go in this location is 6.69 inch. I knew this was going to be my main issue

The height i can actually go to is 37.7 inch but i don't think that helps anyway because i'm guessing the width is to house bigger drivers

I don't think there is a better location unless i go ceiling mount speakers

In your situation, a 5 inch woofer is all that would be appropriate, but you could put two of them in same cabinet to gain more headroom and power handling. The 5 inch drivers below can fit into a cabinet with a net volume of 22 liters only. A matching dome or air motion ribbon tweeter could complete the system.

Are the SB Acoustics speakers available in Australia? That company manufactures excellent very affordable speaker drivers. As a matter of fact, I built several bookshelf enclosures using one of their SB15MFC30-8 and its response

in a properly tuned ported cabinet can reach low frequencies down to below 50 Hz easily. Then, if you find the need to obtain a fuller bass response, you could eventually add a subwoofer or two to complete your system.

Should you need to import them, the advantage of lighter small drivers means cheaper shipping costs.

I have included a photo of one of the bookshelf speakers which I built a couple of years ago. In my HT system, I use four of those as surround and surround back speakers.

To succeed with a DIY project, you need at least to know the basics of good cabinet construction and to have some knowledge of loudspeaker functioning, passive crossover construction. It is also a must to have speaker testing equipment to be able to properly tune ported cabinets, and to build passive crossovers with the components that are matched to the drivers to be used.

Should you wish to import the SB Acoustics drivers with matching tweeters, let me know and I will provide you with the info for a reliable seller in the Montreal area who could supply you with all the quality components including crossover parts and schematics to complete good speaker cabinets. That is the firm I deal with for speaker components. They ship worldwide.

In any case, I wish you the best with your project.

 

[Swerd]

In the drawings of the N3S cabinet, all external walls are ¾” MDF, ×2 = 1.5”. In metric volume, that becomes 16.77 Liters or 16766 cm³. (These cabinets are sealed – no port vents.)

In the modified narrow cabinet, the volume must be the same. The internal width is now 14.5 cm. Keep the depth the same (23.1775 cm),and modify only the height:

16766 ÷ 14.5 ÷ 23.1775 = 49.89 cm internal height​

Add 2.54 cm for the wall thickness, resulting in a cabinet with these external dimensions:

17 cm wide × 25.7 cm deep × 52.4 cm tall​

​

This should fit your available space . I hope my arithmetic is correct.

This is just an exercise to show that you can get MTM speakers with two ~5" (13 cm) mid-woofers and one tweeter to fit your narrow space. The internal volumes may have to change a bit to work appropriately with other similar sized mid-woofers. But your extra depth and height should be enough for that.

 

[bjmate]

Thanks, this helps alot. Apon searching for kits in Aus I came across Wagner electronics who sell MTM kits. Weirdly enough if i buy the complete speaker kit including the Cab it is $100 cheaper then just buying the drivers and crossovers, go figure.

As you state I should be able to build a box with the same volume and these drivers will perform as well as they would in the pre made box

Its a great start anyway.

Thank you.

Don’t give up yet, this may be possible. I’m thinking of what’s called an MTM design, mid-woofer – tweeter – mid-woofer. See the links below for photos.

Two reasonably priced MTM good quality do-it-yourself (DIY) kits are available in the USA:

A/V 2 speaker: http://gr-research.com/av-2.aspx​

N3S speaker: http://gr-research.com/n3-1.aspx​

These kits may or may not be available to you in Australia, but I’m using them as examples of what you might be able to build or get built. Both kits use the same size mid-woofer, but the N35 has a more expensive and probably better quality tweeter.

I think you can modify the standard cabinet to fit the space you have available. Let me walk you through my thoughts.

The mid-woofers in these kits, said to be 5.25" diameter (" means inches),require a hole 4.875" (12.4 cm) in diameter for mounting. Typically, an external cabinet width of 8" (20.3 cm) is used to comfortably allow enough space inside. The internal width of these cabinets is 6.5" (0.75" thick walls) and the mid-woofers require 4.875", leaving 0.8125" (2.06 cm) available on each side inside the side walls.

See the cabinet drawing for the N3S speaker http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/neo3S.pdf.

The standard cabinet for the N3S kit, with 0.75" thick walls, has these external dimensions:

8" wide × 10.625" deep × 18.75" tall​

20.3 cm wide × 27 cm deep × 47.6 cm tall​

Your maximum external dimensions are:

6.69" wide × 13.75" deep × 37.7" tall​

17 cm wide × 34.9 cm deep × 95.8 cm tall​

These cabinets are typically made with medium density fiberboard (MDF),and the drawing shows that all outer walls are 0.75" (1.9 cm) thick. If you use thinner MDF side walls, 0.5" (1.27 cm) thick, a speaker cabinet could be built to fit your narrow space.

Start with 17 cm external width​

Subtract 2.54 cm for two side walls (1.27 cm × 2)​

17 – 2.54 = 14.5 cm internal width​

The mid-woofer requires a 12.4 cm hole​

17 – 2.54 – 12.4 = 2.06 remain. That’s 1 cm on each side of the mid-woofer. That's a close fit, but possible.​

​

To get proper bass performance from a narrower cabinet, these cabinets must be deeper and/or taller so that the internal volume is the same as the cabinet in the drawing. I’m too lazy now (see my next post below) to go through those volume calculations, but I think you have enough extra height and/or depth to allow for this.

I hope you could follow all this.

 

[bjmate]

It appears I can get SB acoustic drivers in Aus and are 1/2 the price of other drivers. I might have to look more into them.

See that is the part i am worried about. from all the info i have read online, speaker building sounded harder then building a rocket I was really hoping for "do this for that size cab" haha

All the cabinet info online was fine, as it seems fairly straight forward. (excluding porting) X driver requires Y volume = dims

But when it comes to tuning and ports and crossover manufacturing it goes a bit pear shaped

In your situation, a 5 inch woofer is all that would be appropriate, but you could put two of them in same cabinet to gain more headroom and power handling. The 5 inch drivers below can fit into a cabinet with a net volume of 22 liters only. A matching dome or air motion ribbon tweeter could complete the system.

Are the SB Acoustics speakers available in Australia? That company manufactures excellent very affordable speaker drivers. As a matter of fact, I built several bookshelf enclosures using one of their SB15MFC30-8 and its responseView attachment 29153 in a properly tuned ported cabinet can reach low frequencies down to below 50 Hz easily. Then, if you find the need to obtain a fuller bass response, you could eventually add a subwoofer or two to complete your system.

Should you need to import them, the advantage of lighter small drivers means cheaper shipping costs.

I have included a photo of one of the bookshelf speakers which I built a couple of years ago. In my HT system, I use four of those as surround and surround back speakers.

To succeed with a DIY project, you need at least to know the basics of good cabinet construction and to have some knowledge of loudspeaker functioning, passive crossover construction. It is also a must to have speaker testing equipment to be able to properly tune ported cabinets, and to build passive crossovers with the components that are matched to the drivers to be used.

Should you wish to import the SB Acoustics drivers with matching tweeters, let me know and I will provide you with the info for a reliable seller in the Montreal area who could supply you with all the quality components including crossover parts and schematics to complete good speaker cabinets. That is the firm I deal with for speaker components. They ship worldwide.

In any case, I wish you the best with your project.

 

[bjmate]

They look like they may be a good option

You should take a look at Triad Speakers. They make custom speakers to fit into all sorts of odd spaces. If you need any help let me know.

www.triadspeakers.com

 

[Swerd]

This is progress, but we're not all the way there yet.

It appears I can get SB acoustic drivers in Aus and are 1/2 the price of other drivers. I might have to look more into them.

Can you find MTM kits or designs with 5" (13 to 15 cm) SB Acoustic mid-woofers? These kits should include two mid-woofers, a tweeter, and the crossover parts, plus instructions. The designs should at least provide a schematic diagram of a crossover design, a parts list, and cabinet dimensions and details.

I looked at Madisound, a USA distributor of SB Acoustics, to see what they sell here. In order of price, low to high, these models seem of interest:

SB Acoustics SB13PFC25-08 5" Paper Cone Woofer, $23.30 US
SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-8 5" Woofer, $51.40 US
SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-8 5" Poly Cone Woofer, $53.45 US
SB Acoustics SB15NBAC30-8 5" Black Aluminum Cone Mid-bass, $66.85 US
SB Acoustics SB15CAC30-8 5" ceramic woofer- 8 ohms, $80.70 US

I included a link to Madisound's info webpage for each of these because they usually suggest cabinet dimensions. Look for them. For example, the Poly Cone Woofer (3rd on the above list), SB suggests:

0.15 cubic foot (4.25 L) sealed and stuffed box to produce an F3* of about 89Hz.
0.35 cubic foot (9.91 L) with a 1.5" (3.8 cm) diameter vent by 6" (15.2 cm) long to produce an F3* of about 50Hz.

*F3 is the sound frequency at which the sound level, in decibels (dB), has dropped by 3 dB. It's a measure of lower cabinet tuning. Below the F3, speakers usually roll off more. An F3 of 50 Hz for this driver is about as good as you can expect for a mid-woofer of this size.

Remember, in an MTM design, you must double cabinet volume to 19.8 L, and use two 3.8 × 15.2 cm vents, or one vent with double the diameter (7.62 cm), but the same length as above.

 

[Swerd]

I found the Wagner Electronics web page. They have what looks like a good selection of kits. I would contact them, tell them about your narrow space constraints, and the idea that an upright MTM design made with two 5" mid-woofers, with a suitable tweeter and crossover, might be a solution. See what they recommend for you.

Both SB Acoustics and Satori are good products, designed by people who came from the better known Scandinavian speaker companies, and manufactured in China. Peerless is another well known name.

Good luck.

 

[bjmate]

what are your thoughts on these

https://www.wagneronline.com.au/peerless-hds-xls-series-of-speaker-kits-introduction/speaker-kits/audio-speakers-pa/kit250bv-7179/3451/pd/

https://www.wagneronline.com.au/peerless-hds-xls-series-of-speaker-kits-introduction/speaker-kits/audio-speakers-pa/kit255cbv-7335/3451/pd/

As i said before it is cheaper to buy the complete kit with box.

In the drawings of the N3S cabinet, all external walls are ¾” MDF, ×2 = 1.5”. In metric volume, that becomes 16.77 Liters or 16766 cm³. (These cabinets are sealed – no port vents.)

In the modified narrow cabinet, the volume must be the same. The internal width is now 14.5 cm. Keep the depth the same (23.1775 cm),and modify only the height:

16766 ÷ 14.5 ÷ 23.1775 = 49.89 cm internal height​

Add 2.54 cm for the wall thickness, resulting in a cabinet with these external dimensions:

17 cm wide × 25.7 cm deep × 52.4 cm tall​

​

This should fit your available space . I hope my arithmetic is correct.

This is just an exercise to show that you can get MTM speakers with two ~5" (13 cm) mid-woofers and one tweeter to fit your narrow space. The internal volumes may have to change a bit to work appropriately with other similar sized mid-woofers. But your extra depth and height should be enough for that.

 

[bjmate]

oh ok good idea.

i might do that

I found the Wagner Electronics web page. They have what looks like a good selection of kits. I would contact them, tell them about your narrow space constraints, and the idea that an upright MTM design made with two 5" mid-woofers, with a suitable tweeter and crossover, might be a solution. See what they recommend for you.

Good luck.