Power amps

[Truckdude1]

I live way up in the mtns and want a semi load theater. I got a Denon avr x6400h and want to add a medium priced power amp. My from center can be bi amped and can handle 200 watts my fronts up to 500 my sides 150 and my rears 300 watts. I keep listening to the outlaw 5000 amp u tube from u. Would it be better to get 2 5000s and 1st one bi amp my fronts with 4 channels then use the 2nd for rears, sides, center or choose another amp. At 600.00 each is my price range.
I was also wondering I have 5 onkyo m5010 amps to run my other speakers and they have rca in and out so from the preouts would I run the cables to in then another out to outlaws for each preouts since outlaw doesn't have rca outs. I'm new here so be gentle I'm just a crazy old man and after being a drummer for 53 yrs I need load. Thank u

 

[nbk13nw]

Bi-amping most speakers provide no real gains in sound quality. It would be easier for us to reply with some suggestions if you could tell us what speakers (make and model) that you are running. Room size ( width x length x height), are you running a subwoofer? Just music or home theater or both?

 

[lovinthehd]

Useless to determine amp needs by watching a video, fwiw. Bi-amping without active crossoers (i.e. pulling the passive ones out of the speakers)...meh, try this https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring.

The speakers impedance characteristics and sensitivity would be much more useful in determining amp needs than some vague max wattage capabilities (which are often mere meltdown points for the speakers), as well as how far from the speakers you'll be and what spl you're trying to achieve. What speakers are they?

As far as connecting the pre-outs on your Denon to a power amp, you'd simply use an rca cable for each channel to the amp from the avr. The Outlaw 5000 uses rca inputs as does the M5010; why would you need an rca output on the amp?

 

[KEW]

How many channels total are you running?
The M5010's just have a line out so you feed the exact same signal to another amp. This is generally not something you want to do (have more than one speaker in the same room playing the exact same signal as another).
What speakers are you driving? Unfortunately speaker specifications for power are notoriously bogus as a rule! I'd bet your front speakers cannot handle 500 watts continuous, but could handle 500W for some short duration (like a rim shot). The amps are generally spec'ed with continuous or RMS watts, so you don't need a 500W amp.

However, assuming the rest of your ducks are in a row, I would suggest as follows:
Assume you mostly listen to music (with the drummer mention).
Accordingly, assume you mostly listen in stereo (since that is the format of most music).
When you are listening in stereo, your AVR is only driving two channels and for most speakers, it should be sufficient.
However, if your speakers are "power hungry", I would suggest you get a pair of the Outlaw 2200 monoblock amps to cover the main L & R speakers so you have plenty of juice for stereo, try your Onkyo amps for the rears and surrounds (75WPC is probably enough for them),and use the Denon for your center channel (which may deserve more than 75Watts). If you have additional channels, use the Onkyos first. if you feel like they are lacking in power, then you can add a 5000.
Understand that the 6400 has a very good amp section and the 5000 is probably not much stronger, but splitting out the other channels from the Denon will make a difference.

 

[Truckdude1]

I have Polk rtia 9s front 7s rears 3s sides 4 HTS 12 sub's. I'm using all 4 sub's Now I'm running them from the 6400h I use the m 5010 amps to run a extra set of Polk 500s and 4 monitor 70s. This is why I'm trying to do this right instead of just using everything I had on and when I was using my onkyo rz 810. For my up firing atmos is those pioneer little things that don't do a thing. I want to replace those with svs high speakers my mind went black can't remember there name..

 

[Truckdude1]

I mainly use it for movies dtx and aero 3d. Not much to do at 11,000 ft in the mtns when there's 4 ft of snow outside. I have a Samsung Q7 65in and optima 1080 projector with 120 in power screen. That is what I've been doing is using demon for rti set then m5010s for extra speakers. The reason I asked about in and out on 5010s they have both but the 5000 only has ins so if I want to run the extra speakers from preout that's the only way I know how. It all works now I just felt like using more powerful amps my mains would sound better. My problem is I've had to buy stuff do to finances then am able to get more stuff that's why I have so much junk. Can't get that high dollar stuff. Thank everyone for the help.

 

[lovinthehd]

How about a diagram or pic of speaker placement? Room dims, etc. I'm curious why you have better speakers as rear surrounds over those for the surrounds? You might try playing around with this spl calculator to get an idea of your power needs at your distances/desired levels.

 

[Truckdude1]

i have the rtia9s front 3s side 7s rear u mean put the 7s on the side. they takeup more rm. my rm is wider than long. im mainly trying to get more power to the 9s is why i was going to get the 5000

 

[Kvn_Walker]

You won't see (hear?) a huge volume increase going from your current AVR to the 5000. If specs are to be believed (big grain of salt), you're actually losing power. I'd suggest following KEW's advice and going a step further with 3x Outlaw 2200's for your front L/C/R. The Denon should be adequate power for your rear speakers if they're the only load.

As already pointed out, bi-amping into passive crossovers is pretty much a waste. I've tried it and perceived no improvement. I could go on a long tangent about how it could be worse for the passive crossovers in some ways, but I'll spare the technobabble. Much better to use brute force and put more power to the speaker and leave the jumpers in place.

Like many members of this forum, I own Outlaw 2200's. I know everyone has a different definition of "loud enough," but I can attest they leave little to be desired.

 

[KEW]

If specs are to be believed (big grain of salt), you're actually losing power.

Not really, but only because Outlaw made the "insane" marketing of spec'ing their 5 channel amp with all 5 channels driven. If the Denon was tested with 5 channels driven, I expect it would be a little less than 100 WPC!
Every other company I know of specifies wattage with 2 channels driven, even if it is a 7 channel amp! I like that Outlaw does this, but their sales would be much higher if they rated the amp at two channels driven (170 watts per Audioholics bench testing):
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000/measurements

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Not really, but only because Outlaw made the "insane" marketing of spec'ing their 5 channel amp with all 5 channels driven. If the Denon was tested with 5 channels driven, I expect it would be a little less than 100 WPC!
Every other company I know of specifies wattage with 2 channels driven, even if it is a 7 channel amp! I like that Outlaw does this, but their sales would be much higher if they rated the amp at two channels driven (170 watts per Audioholics bench testing):
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000/measurements

Shame when being honest could cause you to lose sales.

 

[PENG]

According to Audiovision.de:

http://audiovision.de/denon-avr-x6400h-test/

With 138 watts in 5-channel operation (4 ohms),97 watts in 7-channel mode (6 ohms) and lush 234 watts in stereo (4 ohms),the X6400H even has slightly more power reserves than its predecessor.

OP: As KEW suggested, just get two (3 would be better, to take care of the center as well) Outlaw monoblocks for the front RTAi9. Or the Monolith 3X200 W amp for the fronts and center. The Outlaw 5000 is not more powerful than the X6400H on per channel basis.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As others have already said, the Denon 6400 should be plenty of power for your speakers.

But if you must add an external amp anyway, then you might as well get something with 200WPC or more.

 

[Truckdude1]

I found a emotiva 3 channel xpa3 for 1100.00 so I can use it for my 9s but not my center cause it says 275 watts but that's more than it says my csia6 will take. Then use my 6400 for the 3s and 7s. Then use my m5010s for the 2 500s and 4 monitor 70s. Or would it be better to save up to get the 5 channel cause its 500.00 more than I have now. I want to get 2 sets of the svs prime elevations for highs cause these pioneer atmos speakers don't do much and my ceiling angles up. Would this make much of a difference. With all the snow way up here I watch a lot of movies

 

[JerryLove]

I found a emotiva 3 channel xpa3 for 1100.00 so I can use it for my 9s but not my center cause it says 275 watts but that's more than it says my csia6 will take.

That's not how all this works.

The rating of the speaker is the max wattage you can put through the speaker.
The rating of the amp is the max wattage it can produce.

The amp isn't going to produce that much wattage unless certain conditions of voltage (that's your volume knob) and resistance (that's determined by your speaker) are met.

You can't have "too big an amp"; but you can "turn it up too loud".

 

[Truckdude1]

See this is why I'm asking u guys I don't know that much about this stuff before when I used my onkyo rz 810 and due to budget I have 7 of the m5010s. When I found the 6400 on amazon open box for 1000.00 I decided to try to do this right. Being a drummer so long I listen to sound pretty loud.is it true then for the same price the Emotiva has more watts than the monolith 3 channel. Also it says u can add extra channels on the Emotiva up to 7. .

 

[PENG]

Being a drummer so long I listen to sound pretty loud.

Hard to know how loud without more info such as:
- Have you run Audyssey yet?
- How far are you sitting from the RTIA9 and the center?
- What is the volume position (example: -15, -10, 0) when you feel loud enough for you?

Have you tried an online calculator such as the one linked, to figure things out?
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html