A wakeup call for audio consumers?

[Trell]

Think about what is actually happening when the signal comes from a disc vs streaming. How many pieces of equipment are between the streaming source and the destination (your TV). Then, add the miles of cabling, switch points, hubs, repeaters, etc. To make it worse, if the end user has a broadband provider, the cabling is shared by everyone in the area, so physical issues can slow and degrade the signal.

I would think for many users the use of wireless for streaming is more of a problem, especially if one lives in an apartment with many other wifi users.

I'm using Chromecast for streaming and the various issues (drop outs, buffering, disconnect,..) I had did not disappear until I hard wired it. The first generation Chromecast only had 2.4GHz WiFi support, which was pretty bad, but the second gen Chromecast with 5GHz worked much better. Then I bought the Chromecast power supply that gave me LAN support, and the last of the common problems was gone.

 

[2channel lover]

If these 13Ch+ AVPs and AVRs don't sell enough, I don't foresee manufacturers continuing to produce them. Then we'll go back to 9-11Ch (5.1.4 - 7.1.4).

My room is 26' x 22' x 14', and I'm content with 5.1.4.

I do think the target market for such AVRs are the dedicated upper scale HT room and I can see that. I'm working with my brother-n-law on his HT room and he has the ideal situation for a dedicated HT. large basement room, young grade school age kids to enjoy it for at least a decade, and the means to build a really nice HT.

My brother-n-law has made good money and I guess he keeps a lot of it because he's generally cheap. I'm quite certain he will not be investing in a huge library of UHD/bluray movies so he'll be sourcing the majority of his movie content from streaming companies.

 

[highfigh]

I would think for many users the use of wireless for streaming is more of a problem, especially if one lives in an apartment with many other wifi users.

I'm using Chromecast for streaming and the various issues (drop outs, buffering, disconnect,..) I had did not disappear until I hard wired it. The first generation Chromecast only had 2.4GHz WiFi support, which was pretty bad, but the second gen Chromecast with 5GHz worked much better. Then I bought the Chromecast power supply that gave me LAN support, and the last of the common problems was gone.

Hard wired is best- when I install systems, I wire anything that doesn't move and use WiFi for things that don't have an ethernet port or are mobile.

I would bet the Gen 2 had other improvements- 2.4GHz works great when it can and the distance is better than 5GHz, but it's also a matter of matching specs- Sonos gets a lot of attention, but until recently, it didn't use 802.11n, it was only using 802.11g- that can actually slow a network when everything else is using n or better.

 

[Phase 2]

I believe people will want content for the 4K TVs they are buying, so UHD discs will survive.

It would be strange if dvd and UHD survived and Blu-ray went away before dvd

I agree, has anyone walk through Walmart lately? If so you probably ran into a display of DVD's and Blu-ray movies going for 5 to 9 bucks. Most of them are made in Mexico now before I get jumped No I didn't check all of them the display is a huge box with hundreds of them in there but I did check about 20. Just like music CD's huge display. Someone will make and sell disk.

 

[snakeeyes]

I agree, has anyone walk through Walmart lately? If so you probably ran into a display of DVD's and Blu-ray movies going for 5 to 9 bucks. Most of them are made in Mexico now before I get jumped No I didn't check all of them the display is a huge box with hundreds of them in there but I did check about 20. Just like music CD's huge display. Someone will make and sell disk.

They should sell UHD at $19.99 rather than over $20 and sometimes almost $30! That’s probably more than many people want to spend for one movie.

Anyhow on Black Friday those UHD titles are heavily discounted so that’s a good time to buy several.

 

[JerryLove]

In the 15 years I've been a member on these forums, I don't remember ever having a signature. I couldn't think of anything witty enough or informative enough to say. GrimSurfer finally plugged that hole. Plus, I've done him a favor. Now his warning about me (and Jerry) is visible on the ~4900 posts I've made over the years; more visibility than he could hope to achieve so quickly.

I'm reminded of the South Park disclaimer.

"All celebrity voices are impersonated... poorly; and due to it's content, this show should not be viewed by anyone"

 

[JerryLove]

Most of what I would say here has already been said by others... but I agree that the market is a strange mix.

I don't know that I agree planned obsolescence is targeted at outing small players so much as it forcing people with equipment to re-buy every few years.

I do agree that the pre-pro is, and always has been, the problem child... at least ever since we added video.

Despite that: 2-channel pres cost more than whole AVRs and rarely include sub outs.
Despite that: stand-alone amps cost *way* more than whole AVRs (yes: I understand their power stages are better)

I'd love an *affordable* and attractive audio-only PRE with XLR and a sub out. Shouldn't be hard to design for even a small builder. Does anyone have one they would recommend?

At the audio show here I saw a pair of speakers with built in amps and a sub out. My friend and I fell in love. We are both planning them as our next computer speakers. Even the wife wants in.

If you are small: specialize. Do what you can be better at or what the other guy isn't doing.

Or hell: go the McIntosh route. Their 20-year-old CD-Players still go for $800 and damn it: I want one.

What is outlaw's pitch? We offer the same basic product at (we promise) better quality? I've not shopped them [so apologies if they are cheaper]... but seriously: what's the argument in favor?

Even Emotiva; what's the argument over Integra? Remember : this has to be a *compelling* argument because they aren't going to keep up on feature-set (I also want an Emotiva amp; but seriously... what's the compelling case for non-addicts?)

 

[ryanosaur]

A recent thread titled “Outlaw Problems?” prompted me to think about the state of things in the audio industry. I don’t have anything to say about the original poster or his complaint about what appears to be Outlaw’s poor customer service. It occurred to me that this problem might be evidence that Outlaw Audio, a small online audio electronics brand, is getting financially squeezed by its larger competitors.

Since this seems to have been, in part, an impetus for this thread, I thought I'd share that the story doesn't seem one of poor customer service from Outlaw, but rather a poor customer. Outlaw came by and provided some needed insight. That thread has been locked, now, thankfully.

 

[cpp]

I agree with you. I am certainly not trying to defend Outlaw's behavior toward a customer. But I do want readers to think about larger issues that might be causing severe stress on smaller companies in the AV business.

One thing I've learned in business, good customer service equals business stability.

 

[3db]

Interesting comments..
However...
IMHO the real situation is that video & cinema content drive the market.. Just think back for all of the upgrades for video content today, while audio has kinda taken a 2nd priority. Yes more channels have been added, to add more realism to the action. But then again sitting down & enjoying a great stereo, music recording can provide excellent satisfaction/relaxation...

Just my $0.02...

Maybe I'm in the minority here. My only jump on the upgrade train was to a 4K BluRay player and two 4K capable displays which indeed does support what you said about the video/cineam driving the market.

That being said, my equipment other than the displays/player would be considered outdated by most people here. I will never go to Atmos unless I win the lottery and design/buy a house with a dedicated HT room. My current listening environment won't support more. However, I'm very happy with 6.1 because it works REALLY well in my listening environment. A pair of speakers will never be able to deliver the ambiance and air of a surround sound system when delivering a movie soundtrack. One can't argue with the laws of physics and win .

I've also picked my AVRs and speakers to support two channel listening, from CD to cassette. I prefer physical media over streaming as the quality is higher with physical than streaming in both audio and video.

 

[highfigh]

One thing I've learned in business, good customer service equals business stability.

Right- people will drop a product or brand as soon as they feel it's not worth using but they hate to leave a company that treats them well and handles problems as if they were the ones experiencing them, not the customers. I don't mind paying a little more if I can avoid dealing with a distributor that sells the same brand but dealing with their people is a royal PITA. Some places actually waste more of my time giving wrong answers and wondering what it is that I'm asking about than driving across town to buy it from someone else.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I will never go to Atmos unless I win the lottery and design/buy a house with a dedicated HT room.

You know you're itching to add a couple of little PSB bookshelf on the high wall.

They don't have to be ceiling-mount speakers for you to get Atmos!

 

[3db]

You know you're itching to add a couple of little PSB bookshelf on the high wall.

They don't have to be ceiling-mount speakers for you to get Atmos!

No desire at all.

 

[Darenwh]

The thing I find interesting is that the majority of the devices that are replaced every year are being replaced due to 'Software Changes' more than anything else. Is Dolby Atmos vs IMAX Enhanced vs DTS:X really anything more than software changes?

Sure, you sometimes have hardware changes, the move to HDMI, the move from 5.1 to 7.1 to 9.1 to 5.1.4 but these are all audio channels that require differing numbers of outputs and differing signal processing. In other words as long as you have enough channels how you use them is determined by software.

So, what is to stop a high end Pre/Pro manufacturer from building a Pre with a very strong processor and a good amount of (or upgradeable) memory, with say, 13, 15, even 20 channels of assignable output's and the best video input and output currently available (8K) to sell a high end product that can be upgraded over time using software updates rather than requiring new hardware?

Sure, 12K or higher will probably be next but it is very likely that the 8K will have at least 5 and maybe more years before it needs to be replaced. There are still far more people using HD TV's than 4K though that will likely change sometime within the next two years. How long will it be before the majority of people use better than 8K? What are the chances that more than 13 channels will become popular and common within the next five years? Getting down to the point, why do all these devices need to become obsolete so quickly?

 

[JerryLove]

The thing I find interesting is that the majority of the devices that are replaced every year are being replaced due to 'Software Changes' more than anything else. Is Dolby Atmos vs IMAX Enhanced vs DTS:X really anything more than software changes?

It seems likely that a GPGU could be dealing with this in software.

Sure, you sometimes have hardware changes, the move to HDMI, the move from 5.1 to 7.1 to 9.1 to 5.1.4 but these are all audio channels that require differing numbers of outputs and differing signal processing. In other words as long as you have enough channels how you use them is determined by software.

This seems less likely. Some HDMI changes might be manageable via configuration; but signaling changes may also be the result of changes in ability of hardware.

So, what is to stop a high end Pre/Pro manufacturer from building a Pre with a very strong processor and a good amount of (or upgradeable) memory, with say, 13, 15, even 20 channels of assignable output's and the best video input and output currently available (8K) to sell a high end product that can be upgraded over time using software updates rather than requiring new hardware?

Or a computer with multiple sound cards

What are the chances that more than 13 channels will become popular and common within the next five years? Getting down to the point, why do all these devices need to become obsolete so quickly?

Profit.

Though they are only obsolete if you want to *use* the new tech. There haven't been nearly as many media format changes, and the players are cheap.

 

[shadyJ]

The thing I find interesting is that the majority of the devices that are replaced every year are being replaced due to 'Software Changes' more than anything else. Is Dolby Atmos vs IMAX Enhanced vs DTS:X really anything more than software changes?

Sure, you sometimes have hardware changes, the move to HDMI, the move from 5.1 to 7.1 to 9.1 to 5.1.4 but these are all audio channels that require differing numbers of outputs and differing signal processing. In other words as long as you have enough channels how you use them is determined by software.

So, what is to stop a high end Pre/Pro manufacturer from building a Pre with a very strong processor and a good amount of (or upgradeable) memory, with say, 13, 15, even 20 channels of assignable output's and the best video input and output currently available (8K) to sell a high end product that can be upgraded over time using software updates rather than requiring new hardware?

Sure, 12K or higher will probably be next but it is very likely that the 8K will have at least 5 and maybe more years before it needs to be replaced. There are still far more people using HD TV's than 4K though that will likely change sometime within the next two years. How long will it be before the majority of people use better than 8K? What are the chances that more than 13 channels will become popular and common within the next five years? Getting down to the point, why do all these devices need to become obsolete so quickly?

I would guess that image resolution changes may plateau after 8k since you would need an absolutely huge screen to discern individual pixels at that point. I would guess that image improvements after that will be stuff like wider dynamic range in contrasts, better black levels, and things like that.

Also, I don't think 13 channel system will ever become more than a niche thing. That is too much hardware to deal with for normal people, and past a certain level of surround sound, the returns diminish very quickly. In fact, I think that might have happened with 5.1. Manufacturers will try to foist more of this garbage on us, but that will just hasten the demise of home theater as a market with broad appeal.

I like your idea of a processor that with a lot of hardware flexibility and a good CPU that only needs software updates to handle future updates, but sadly I think this industry has too much greed and too few brains to entertain that idea. The home theater market is doomed to be a ever-shrinking niche, and with the way that manufacturers have treated consumers, it is a justly shrinking market.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If these manufacturers are smart, they would increase the resolution gradually every 2 years and go from 4K to 5K to 6K to 7K, etc., and milk it.

It’s not about actually seeing the difference; it’s about feeling it.