Couple general questions

[snakeeyes]

One sub is usually placed near the front left or right main speaker.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

One sub is usually placed near the front left or right main speaker.

That’s largely true. But how many times is that simply out of convenience? A LOT of times that works out, but also a LOT of times nobody checks(rew, sub crawl etc).

 

[snakeeyes]

That’s largely true. But how many times is that simply out of convenience? A LOT of times that works out, but also a LOT of times nobody checks(rew, sub crawl etc).

Just meantioning the obvious.

 

[2channel lover]

Can’t really disagree. I believe in, and use multiple subs. My point here though, is he has freedom to place the sub, and one main LP to worry about. Near field mixed with other subs out in the room is different than a single behind the LP, and I think he can place a single(for now until he is comfortable navigating his system and understands setting up multiple subs) sub to satisfy his LP. I just think it’s a little like giving my 16yo the keys to my race car when he has to really try hard just to drive his regular car to work. I feel like OP just needs more hands on first is all. Good to see ya posting! Been awhile.

 

[2channel lover]

Can’t really disagree. I believe in, and use multiple subs. My point here though, is he has freedom to place the sub, and one main LP to worry about. Near field mixed with other subs out in the room is different than a single behind the LP, and I think he can place a single(for now until he is comfortable navigating his system and understands setting up multiple subs) sub to satisfy his LP. I just think it’s a little like giving my 16yo the keys to my race car when he has to really try hard just to drive his regular car to work. I feel like OP just needs more hands on first is all. Good to see ya posting! Been awhile.

I was mostly referring the multiple subs angle from what I've been seeing lately from my friends. But, I'm a proponent of near field (probably not in a single sub set up though). Sadly for me, it (one on the TV wall and one near field) worked great for movies...not so great for music...once both were positioned on the TV wall the system played best overall.

Agree on the advice given to the OP.

Yeah, I've scooted in and out a few times while at work. My other vice (golf) has kicked in so I haven't been online as much as home, but still very much enjoy AH.

 

[ryanosaur]

My other vice (golf) has kicked in so I haven't been online as much as home, but still very much enjoy AH.

Less Golf. More Music!!!

Steelers: You ARE overthinking! I was there. I know the symptoms. Buy two PB or PC 2000... or if you you feel you need to hedge your bets, buy 2 Pb3000.
If you are in any way in doubt and considering sealed: I pointed out the difference in buying 1 PB 16 vs 4 ea ULS15. Those 15" Hsus are monster. Just accept that you are all in on the dice role!
If you are worried, go SVS. That simple. If you are willing to accept the advice of many, there is NOTHING wrong with Hsu: there just isn't a security blanket.

 

[shadyJ]

A couple things to consider...

I know I have already warned you about the size and weight of the PB16-Ultra, but something else to consider is: will the box fit through your door? Measure your doorway width and make sure the box will fit through it. Also consider the sub's depth: if there are any turns in your stairwell, it might have a very tough time making those turns. Make sure you have a way to carry it up there, you will need a friend who is in good shape, and that is assuming you are using something like a shoulder dolly (this sub can not be carried up a flight of stairs by hand, even with two strong people). You really have to plan out the logistics of getting this sub into place. I did, and it was still a tough task getting it in and out of place.

Something else to consider is that the PB16-Ultra is very powerful from 16 Hz to 40 Hz, but it pays for that power at midbass frequencies. I am guessing that two PB-3000s might equal it in the 16 to 40 Hz range, and beat it above that range- and two PB-3000s would be a LOT easier to handle. And, with some care, can give you a much smoother frequency response. Two also greatly reduces localization.

Something to consider is is efficiency. The more volumetric area you allow your subs to occupy, the more efficient the system is. This should be given close consideration if you are running all of your equipment off of a single 15 amp circuit. The PB16-Ultra can pound alright, but it could also dim my lights. Multiple subs can greatly reduce the power usage and increase efficiency over the equivalent output of a single sub. Compared to the same output of a single sub, dual subs is like increasing the voltage by 3 dB but that nets you a 6 dB increase in acoustic output: it doubles your efficiency. Now think about how the equal output of one sub compares with the same output of four of the same subs! Huge gains in efficiency. Here is a system to consider: four Hsu VTF-3 MK5s. it nearly equals the performance of a PB16-Ultra from 16 to 40 Hz, but will substantially outperform it at 50 Hz and above. It would cost a bit less and eat up less power. Also consider four PC-2000s, that has similar benefits and doesn't eat up much floor space. A four sub spread would have zero localization, and should provide a very nice response even without equalization.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I was mostly referring the multiple subs angle from what I've been seeing lately from my friends. But, I'm a proponent of near field (probably not in a single sub set up though). Sadly for me, it (one on the TV wall and one near field) worked great for movies...not so great for music...once both were positioned on the TV wall the system played best overall.

Agree on the advice given to the OP.

Yeah, I've scooted in and out a few times while at work. My other vice (golf) has kicked in so I haven't been online as much as home, but still very much enjoy AH.

Seems like we agree.
When I tried near field, I only had 2 subs and tried them both right into the back of my couch. My music experience just wasn’t good. Seemed like I just couldn’t get the bass to tie into my mains. Now, if I could put 2 right at my couch and 2in front where they my pc’s are that might work. I have great response currently so I don’t really care about trying it again.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

A couple things to consider...

I know I have already warned you about the size and weight of the PB16-Ultra, but something else to consider is: will the box fit through your door? Measure your doorway width and make sure the box will fit through it. Also consider the sub's depth: if there are any turns in your stairwell, it might have a very tough time making those turns. Make sure you have a way to carry it up there, you will need a friend who is in good shape, and that is assuming you are using something like a shoulder dolly (this sub can not be carried up a flight of stairs by hand, even with two strong people). You really have to plan out the logistics of getting this sub into place. I did, and it was still a tough task getting it in and out of place.

Something else to consider is that the PB16-Ultra is very powerful from 16 Hz to 40 Hz, but it pays for that power at midbass frequencies. I am guessing that two PB-3000s might equal it in the 16 to 40 Hz range, and beat it above that range- and two PB-3000s would be a LOT easier to handle. And, with some care, can give you a much smoother frequency response. Two also greatly reduces localization.

Something to consider is is efficiency. The more volumetric area you allow your subs to occupy, the more efficient the system is. This should be given close consideration if you are running all of your equipment off of a single 15 amp circuit. The PB16-Ultra can pound alright, but it could also dim my lights. Multiple subs can greatly reduce the power usage and increase efficiency over the equivalent output of a single sub. Compared to the same output of a single sub, dual subs is like increasing the voltage by 3 dB but that nets you a 6 dB increase in acoustic output: it doubles your efficiency. Now think about how the equal output of one sub compares with the same output of four of the same subs! Huge gains in efficiency. Here is a system to consider: four Hsu VTF-3 MK5s. it nearly equals the performance of a PB16-Ultra from 16 to 40 Hz, but will substantially outperform it at 50 Hz and above. It would cost a bit less and eat up less power. Also consider four PC-2000s, that has similar benefits and doesn't eat up much floor space. A four sub spread would have zero localization, and should provide a very nice response even without equalization.

So, a statement Steelers asked not very long ago was that he wasn’t even sure he ran audyssey correctly. Are we really sure that setting up 4 subwoofers isn’t putting the cart in front of the horse? He going to have to learn/use rew and buy a mic. You can’t just plop 4 subs in a room and have it work. XT32 with subeq can handle 2 subs and maybe even 2sets of two but how would he ever know? I mean he does have plenty of guidance here but this is his first run at a system. It feels giving my 16yo the keys to a Ferrari and having him try to set record lap times.

 

[snakeeyes]

So, a statement Steelers asked not very long ago was that he wasn’t even sure he ran audyssey correctly. Are we really sure that setting up 4 subwoofers isn’t putting the cart in front of the horse? He going to have to learn/use rew and buy a mic. You can’t just plop 4 subs in a room and have it work. XT32 with subeq can handle 2 subs and maybe even 2sets of two but how would he ever know? I mean he does have plenty of guidance here but this is his first run at a system. It feels giving my 16yo the keys to a Ferrari and having him try to set record lap times.

Buy 2 at a time.

 

[shadyJ]

So, a statement Steelers asked not very long ago was that he wasn’t even sure he ran audyssey correctly. Are we really sure that setting up 4 subwoofers isn’t putting the cart in front of the horse? He going to have to learn/use rew and buy a mic. You can’t just plop 4 subs in a room and have it work. XT32 with subeq can handle 2 subs and maybe even 2sets of two but how would he ever know? I mean he does have plenty of guidance here but this is his first run at a system. It feels giving my 16yo the keys to a Ferrari and having him try to set record lap times.

You don't need a multisub EQ system to use four subs. You only need it to optimize the response. Simply having four subs can go along way toward flattening out the response on its own. I should show you my un-EQ'd response with four sub if I can dig it up next time I use my laptop- it is very good. I would never use anything like Audyssey on my four sub system. All Steeler has to do is just make sure the subs are in phase and at least somewhat level matched. Hell, he could use an SPL meter app in his cel phone for that. Even if all Steeler did was get four subs and place them in the corners of his room level matched and phase matched, I bet that he would still have a better response than 99 percent of the guys with a single sub who endlessly tweak it with EQing to improve the sound. I would not trust Audyssey or YPAO or MCACC to 'improve' the response of a simple quad sub system with halfway sensible placement. I am not telling Steeler to do anything fancy or complicated here. In fact, I would tell him to avoid automated room correction period. The setup procedure I am recommending is very simple.

 

[Steelers252006]

So, a statement Steelers asked not very long ago was that he wasn’t even sure he ran audyssey correctly. Are we really sure that setting up 4 subwoofers isn’t putting the cart in front of the horse? He going to have to learn/use rew and buy a mic. You can’t just plop 4 subs in a room and have it work. XT32 with subeq can handle 2 subs and maybe even 2sets of two but how would he ever know? I mean he does have plenty of guidance here but this is his first run at a system. It feels giving my 16yo the keys to a Ferrari and having him try to set record lap times.

I got Audyssey down my second go-around...BUT it seems that using it is advised against by many?

 

[Steelers252006]

I got Audyssey down my second go-around...BUT it seems that using it is advised against by many?

Good memory btw.

 

[Leemix]

I got Audyssey down my second go-around...BUT it seems that using it is advised against by many?

Many use it and many dont so just try some with and some without audyssey on to see what you prefer. Some like it for movies and not music also. Its easy to turn on or off and denon/marantz remember audyssey on/off and DEQ per input.

(I prefer without, my sister also without at her place and my dad likes audyssey on at his house)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[2channel lover]

Less Golf. More Music!!!

Steelers: You ARE overthinking! I was there. I know the symptoms. Buy two PB or PC 2000... or if you you feel you need to hedge your bets, buy 2 Pb3000.
If you are in any way in doubt and considering sealed: I pointed out the difference in buying 1 PB 16 vs 4 ea ULS15. Those 15" Hsus are monster. Just accept that you are all in on the dice role!
If you are worried, go SVS. That simple. If you are willing to accept the advice of many, there is NOTHING wrong with Hsu: there just isn't a security blanket.

LOL...Well, I'm on a bit of a winning streak now with my weekly group...we had a really mild winter here in ATL so I've played more in Jan-Feb than I ever have. Normally Mar-Jun and Sept thru Nov is my heavy golf time...but music is never cut short. Just time online is a little less.

OP...fellow Steeler fan! I didn't realize you were struggling with brand decisions...speaking of HSU...I have 2
vtf3 mk5 subs and for my 2800 cu ft space...they are more than sufficient.

 

[2channel lover]

Seems like we agree.
When I tried near field, I only had 2 subs and tried them both right into the back of my couch. My music experience just wasn’t good. Seemed like I just couldn’t get the bass to tie into my mains. Now, if I could put 2 right at my couch and 2in front where they my pc’s are that might work. I have great response currently so I don’t really care about trying it again.

I think so...my room is an odd shape...main seating is in an alcove that's a lot more narrow than the room itself is so 2 in back would put them far too close, so if I ever add a near field sub one would be ideal...I was able to pull the seat away from the wall about 5-6' so the near field sub was literally about 8" from the back of the seat...great for high impact movies in terms feeling it even at fairly low levels.

That said, the two up front are more than sufficient so everyday that passes me less likely to add a 3rd sub. As I've lived with the new system now for nearly 2 years, the only thing I can really see myself doing is adding a true streaming player...the laptop with external 5T storage is okay, but not as stable as I would prefer. Secondly would be upgrading the side surrounds once my son takes the B&Ws...the BMRs will most likely replace them....in the a lot of the 5.1 and quad audio mixes...the rears get a full range signal and I can tell the difference in the Salk's RAAL to the B&W tweeter.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I think so...my room is an odd shape...main seating is in an alcove that's a lot more narrow than the room itself is so 2 in back would put them far too close, so if I ever add a near field sub one would be ideal...I was able to pull the seat away from the wall about 5-6' so the near field sub was literally about 8" from the back of the seat...great for high impact movies in terms feeling it even at fairly low levels.

That said, the two up front are more than sufficient so everyday that passes me less likely to add a 3rd sub. As I've lived with the new system now for nearly 2 years, the only thing I can really see myself doing is adding a true streaming player...the laptop with external 5T storage is okay, but not as stable as I would prefer. Secondly would be upgrading the side surrounds once my son takes the B&Ws...the BMRs will most likely replace them....in the a lot of the 5.1 and quad audio mixes...the rears get a full range signal and I can tell the difference in the Salk's RAAL to the B&W tweeter.

I need to get some 5.1 music. I just bought a Sony x700 a while back and I’d love to try some out. Curious about how DSU or neural x would handle that too.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Good memory btw.

Lol! Tell my wife that!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

You don't need a multisub EQ system to use four subs. You only need it to optimize the response. Simply having four subs can go along way toward flattening out the response on its own. I should show you my un-EQ'd response with four sub if I can dig it up next time I use my laptop- it is very good. I would never use anything like Audyssey on my four sub system. All Steeler has to do is just make sure the subs are in phase and at least somewhat level matched. Hell, he could use an SPL meter app in his cel phone for that. Even if all Steeler did was get four subs and place them in the corners of his room level matched and phase matched, I bet that he would still have a better response than 99 percent of the guys with a single sub who endlessly tweak it with EQing to improve the sound. I would not trust Audyssey or YPAO or MCACC to 'improve' the response of a simple quad sub system with halfway sensible placement. I am not telling Steeler to do anything fancy or complicated here. In fact, I would tell him to avoid automated room correction period. The setup procedure I am recommending is very simple.

Well, maybe my Sub-fu isn't as good as yours? or my room anyway... I do know that with my room my first two subs don't seem to benefit greatly one another. But when I add the third, it does help. i'd never go without EQ even though it's probably good enough for a lot of guys. My friends room which has 4 subs(and 2 near field but currently out of order), does benefit with subs 3 and 4 in play, but not as much as we expected. Luckily he bought a minidsp, because YPAO is worthless and we got is pretty nice.
My last bout with minidsp proved to be very good, and XT32 afterwards was just icing.I ran all three subsoff the same input and EQ'd globally. Ran just two up front with just xt32 for awhile. didn't keep sweeps. I still have a lot of work to do but i'm very happy so far. I have also limited audyssey to 500hz, and so far that's been good too. Anyway, it's been my experience that multiple(up to 4)subs DO magically address the room, but not enough for my liking without at least a minidsp(could me my AudiOCD). The point is, im sure once OP gets his 1,2,3,or 4 subs, the next conversation is a mic and rew. Then a minidsp. That's how it always goes. LOL!

Like I said, still work to do but pretty good. This is current bass response.