Amp advice confusion

[jgstudios]

Hello folks, I hope I do not offend here, but recently I was making inquiries about specing out the right gear to match with my Polk rti a9 towers. 90 db at 500 W peak. I have a pioneer elite vsx 33 AVR. I believe it's rated at 110 WPC. So I was looking at getting an amplifier to connect to the pre-outs on the AVR. Some of you may recall this. The advice I was given by a senior audioholic, an overlord, and a few others, was that I did not need so much power (300-500 W) for my amp. Well, I just read a post from the same audioholic to a new member that is confusing me, so I seek your wisdom. I quote: "the amp/AVR you eventually buy should at least meet or exceed the maximum power handling of the speakers. " I interpret this to mean that consideration can and should indeed include amps in the 500 W or more range. Also it was advised to calculate the desired SPL at the listening position, so I used the SPL calculator provided by an overlord to get 85 db at 11.5 ft using my speaker specs. 85db is still louder at my listening position than I would normally use most of the time. SPL calculation shows that comes to only 1 Watt. Mind...blown... I know that when I measure 78 db at my chair it's freakin' loud, and I find it hard to believe my AVR is pushing only 1 watt. I'm really not trying to get the answers I want to hear, and I do apologize for beating a dead horse. I had actually felt quite relieved that I could save hundred of dollars by getting a lower powered amp and use that money for more audio toys. I felt the issue was resolved. I do greatly appreciate all the advice given thus far, but now...I'm perplexed. Please guys, clarify.

 

[Phase 2]

I have read that those RTi-A9's are power hungry and that they do benefit with 200 plus. They are a big speaker also from the reviews they seem to be really good in a HT setup.

 

[Leemix]

The problem is that there is no real standard in testing and manufacturers like big inflated watt numbers to sell so while you dont neccessarily need a 500w amp its often difficult to find the quality solid 100w ones that can drive difficult load speakers. (Some of those 300-500w ones are inflated specs also)
Recievers are often a lot less powerful then the numbers suggest as are many pure amps. Which is why its difficult to just have one general «rule». There are many things to keep an eye on for a good educated guess but all of them have exceptions.

Edit: on my way out so almost forgot. Most speakers will be very happy with a quality 250w and up amp but they are not cheap.
(I have a parasound a31 and im very happy with it)


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[R.Elder]

Hello folks, I hope I do not offend here, but recently I was making inquiries about specing out the right gear to match with my Polk rti a9 towers. 90 db at 500 W peak. I have a pioneer elite vsx 33 AVR. I believe it's rated at 110 WPC. So I was looking at getting an amplifier to connect to the pre-outs on the AVR. Some of you may recall this. The advice I was given by a senior audioholic, an overlord, and a few others, was that I did not need so much power (300-500 W) for my amp. Well, I just read a post from the same audioholic to a new member that is confusing me, so I seek your wisdom. I quote: "the amp/AVR you eventually buy should at least meet or exceed the maximum power handling of the speakers. " I interpret this to mean that consideration can and should indeed include amps in the 500 W or more range. Also it was advised to calculate the desired SPL at the listening position, so I used the SPL calculator provided by an overlord to get 85 db at 11.5 ft using my speaker specs. 85db is still louder at my listening position than I would normally use most of the time. SPL calculation shows that comes to only 1 Watt. Mind...blown... I know that when I measure 78 db at my chair it's freakin' loud, and I find it hard to believe my AVR is pushing only 1 watt. I'm really not trying to get the answers I want to hear, and I do apologize for beating a dead horse. I had actually felt quite relieved that I could save hundred of dollars by getting a lower powered amp and use that money for more audio toys. I felt the issue was resolved. I do greatly appreciate all the advice given thus far, but now...I'm perplexed. Please guys, clarify.

Do your speakers get loud enough and remain unclipped / distorted? How loud do you have to set your AVR when listening to music and movies?

 

[jgstudios]

The polks require higher volume settings on the AVR than my old sansui speakers. I do occasionally notice some brief crackling/distortion with some music. Sometimes I wonder if I'm imagining it, but sometimes it seems quite distinct and it perks me up. I never heard that before with the old sansui's. I listen to all kinds of jazz, and rock. When listening to classical, I sometimes need to increase the volume even more to better hear the lower quieter sounds. I could feel the AVR was getting pretty warm as I approach -18 up to -15 and higher, whereas before with the sansui's it was never noticeably warm. I was concerned that maybe I was stressing the AVR, perhaps clipping was occurring. I thought an external amp might better carry the load, so I was looking at that as an option. Anyway, based on what I'm reading, there are many variables at play and no hard & fast rules. I need to quit fretting and just pick one already. This is the beginning of my audio quest. I know as equipment changes, the formula will change. Thanks for the input.

 

[Mikado463]

what is your budget ? are you willing to buy used ?

there is a large contingent here that likes the various offerings from Crown and they can be had a very reasonable price point.

 

[jgstudios]

I check cragslist daily, but most separate amps in my area are 100W or less; mostly older stuff. Not that I'm against that at all, but I'm sort of waiting for something "vintage" with some big VU meters and a silver faceplate on it. So far just a few black boxes that don't interest me either because of specs or they're kind of beat up. There just isn't that much around here. Budget I guess...lets say $1500 or less, preferably less, but I'm not rigidly limited to any specific number, nor am I trying to be as thrifty as humanly possible. For example: Emotiva looks good where a 300W 2 ch amp can be had for $1K new. That seems like a good standard to compare from. I've checked all the others, outlaw, monoprice, anthem, crown etc.. So far I'm still just looking and comparing specs, window shopping. No hurry. I have to say, I miss the days of the silver faceplates, big knobs and VU meters. I'm old school. To me that was something special regardless of practical need. To me those were beautiful instruments. What I see on the market now aesthetically is quite uninspiring, so there is nothing that is really drawing me in. Specs are all there is to compare, and that isn't necessarily the only thing that matters to me. Yet, I realize I don't have the money for the things I can only fantasize about so specs on a budget it is. This forum is the place I visit to figure out the details. It's great to have a resource like this.

 

[ryanosaur]

I think I mentioned previously that Polk speakers are designed to take large amounts of power. That does not necessarily mean it’s necessary. I agree that something in the 200-300w range should be sufficient if “power-hungry” is truly a thing. That said, since beginning to research amps and speakers, I’ve not seen any evidence presented that potential headroom in an amp... that is to say the potential to deliver more power still than that required to produce the spl you are listening at... creates a better sound.
When picking an amp, and using that calculator, consider that you need about 20db of headroom in most situations. Orchestral music can actually be more demanding, still, than a movie! Movies are designed for that 20dB dynamic peak; there is no standard for a pianissimo flute solo immediately followed by 100 skilled musicians playing FFF! That could easily be a 60dB swing. Regardless, if you look at the sensitivity of your speakers:
1w=90dB, 1meter
2w, 93
4w, 96
8w, 99
16w, 102
32w, 105
64w, 108
128w, 111
256w, 114
Considering that with every doubling of distance, you lose 6dB, you could expect to lose ~9dB at your seat. So theoretically, 256 w producing 114dB @1m, equates to 105dB at your seat, which is reference level dynamic peak.
As you’ve stated, that is louder than you care to listen, however, it also provides the headroom that you want to have at your control.
Until I see a quantification of “power hungry” and what that means for wattage required to make a sound... I don’t accept the argument that your Polks require a 500w or 1000w amp (two different rules of thumb people use).
That said, it is your system. If you want an amp that powerful, go for it.
Personally, I think 256w is fine. Beyond that, you have exceeded the point of diminishing returns and firmly entered the realm of frivolous expenditure.

 

[R.Elder]

It’s annoying that only the higher end stuff have old school VU meters. I completely agree that it’s a very nice asthetic.

 

[jgstudios]

Yeah, that really makes sense. As for "headroom", I've always heard amps of higher wattage provide more headroom. I recently heard someone say that it provides the amp with the ability to drive the speakers more easily. That statement made sense to me. Like an adult picking up a bowling ball vs. a 5 year old. The kid can do it but with greater struggle. I've heard people say headroom provides more dynamic range for the speakers. Which I interpret as the ability of the driver to move more easily and perhaps further in/out, thereby giving "better" sound. In photography a camera that provides more dynamic range via the image sensor allows you to capture more light overall within the image and especially shadows and bright areas. When you process this into a print, you are potentially able to resolve more of the light information in the image and put that onto a photographic print, so logically you think it's a better print. Sound is light. I kind of see amp wattage that way, but whether it actually makes the music resolve better is still a mystery to me.

 

[jgstudios]

If I saw two amps of relatively equal price and specs, and one had nice big VU meters and the other was just a black box, I would pick the one with the meters. If the VU meter amp was a couple hundred more, I would still pick the one with the meters.

 

[ryanosaur]

I recently heard someone say that it provides the amp with the ability to drive the speakers more easily.

I think this is a clumsy statement. If 1w makes your speaker play at 90dB, the ability to access 499w more, does not come into play. As I understand it, if its not being used, its not being used. If someone can correct that, please do! I'm here to learn more, myself.
Regardless, look at First Watt amps. I heard a great speaker on an amp only rated for something like 7 or 9w. This guys amps are predicated on providing the best clean power possible. Some people swear by them. This is when I learned, a big amp isn't necessary for big sound.

I've heard people say headroom provides more dynamic range for the speakers.

Best way I can describe it, is that headroom in an amp is untapped power reserve. Dynamic peaks require energy to have the speakers play louder. Yes, this may mean the cone moves more in the process. That is not "Better" sound. It is increased SPL.

I kind of see amp wattage that way, but whether it actually makes the music resolve better is still a mystery to me.

Amps do not change sound quality. The transducers that make up your speaker do (they, the speaker build including crossovers, the room and acoustics associated within it, and the source materiel as well). The woofer, mid, and tweeter transduce electrical signal into soundwave. Amps give a potential increase to that electrical impulse. An amp does not immediately make music louder... but if you choose an amp with more power, it will allow you to exceed the SPL allowed by your AVR amp stage.

 

[Leemix]

I dont know if or how much this matters but more expensive A/B amps usually stay class A longer before adding the B.


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[jgstudios]

ryanosaur: Cool, hence why I see so many state that more of your money should go into speakers vs. the electronics. I wish I would have known that before I bought the polks. I would have done more research in that direction. But, they're here with me now and I do enjoy them. Someday I will probably trade them out.
First Watt: very interesting, everything is 25W or less. This is something to study and contemplate.

 

[ryanosaur]

I was there in your shoes last year. I was convinced I needed monster amps, and that I needed to bi-amp...
I got over bi-amping more easily. Though I may pursue active bi-amping if I choose to build some speakers I’ve been contemplating, that is a different matter.
I’m not suggesting that First Watt is the direction for you to go, though if interested you should research them, rather it is the perfect illustration that I needed to convince me of what 1w is capable of. That in auditioning this guy’s speakers, I probably never turned it up to the full 85db of the speakers sensitivity.
Now look in my signature, and you’ll see I’m using Outlaw2200s: capable of delivering a conservative 250w into my 6ohm speakers at 85db sensitivity. I don’t use that much power. I may have turned it to 0, once. Usually I listen at no greater than -10dB.
I get your comment about the aesthetics of your gear, but consider, on sale, I bought my 2200s for 300 ea, and now my front 3 and surrounds each have their own power supply. There are several other amps I could have spent more on for roughly the same performance. Save space with 1 box instead of 5, etc. they do what they are supposed to do, and do it well. My speakers do the rest. My ears are happy. I’m also a function-first kind of guy. YMMV.
Don’t be afraid to buy an amp. I would choose emotiva or Outlaw for the pricing. I know Outlaw performs. So many others out there, it really starts to come down to cost and your needs. Pro amps like the crown xls series or qtc cinema amps can be great too. They will perform. No analog guages though.

 

[Sef_Makaro]

I check cragslist daily, but most separate amps in my area are 100W or less; mostly older stuff. Not that I'm against that at all, but I'm sort of waiting for something "vintage" with some big VU meters and a silver faceplate on it. So far just a few black boxes that don't interest me either because of specs or they're kind of beat up. There just isn't that much around here. Budget I guess...lets say $1500 or less, preferably less, but I'm not rigidly limited to any specific number, nor am I trying to be as thrifty as humanly possible. For example: Emotiva looks good where a 300W 2 ch amp can be had for $1K new. That seems like a good standard to compare from. I've checked all the others, outlaw, monoprice, anthem, crown etc.. So far I'm still just looking and comparing specs, window shopping. No hurry. I have to say, I miss the days of the silver faceplates, big knobs and VU meters. I'm old school. To me that was something special regardless of practical need. To me those were beautiful instruments. What I see on the market now aesthetically is quite uninspiring, so there is nothing that is really drawing me in. Specs are all there is to compare, and that isn't necessarily the only thing that matters to me. Yet, I realize I don't have the money for the things I can only fantasize about so specs on a budget it is. This forum is the place I visit to figure out the details. It's great to have a resource like this.

I agree with you on the aesthetics part. I really like the look of some of the older Yamaha and Marantz stereos with that brushed silver front panel and “heavy” switches.

I saw a set up with a couple of these a couple months back. Too back they’re not approachable costwise for most mere mortals.

Same guy had a bunch of very high end equipment to go with those amps. I got to sit and listen for a while.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
Considering that with every doubling of distance, you lose 6dB, ..

That is only true in outdoor conditions. Residential setups it is more like 3 dB-4 dB, room reinforcement.

 

[ryanosaur]

That is only true in outdoor conditions. Residential setups it is more like 3 dB-4 dB, room reinforcement.

thanks!

 

[mtrycrafts]

The polks require higher volume settings on the AVR than my old sansui speakers. ...

Well, it may be that the Sansui had a higher sensitivity than the Polk.
Also, hard to say what the realistic impedance of that speaker is.
As to being hungry, that is an urban legend in Polk land unless the claimed sensitivity is way off.
I would forget that 500 W amp. Get a good AVR, 120W to 140W or so.
Be careful with volume, hearing degradation in your future.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think this is a clumsy statement. If 1w makes your speaker play at 90dB, the ability to access 499w more, does not come into play. As I understand it, if its not being used, its not being used. If someone can correct that, please do!

Correct. 499 is a huge change in volume and is capable of frying tweeters even without clipping. Tweeters in most home speakers cannot handle much power at all.

Regardless, look at First Watt amps. I heard a great speaker on an amp only rated for something like 7 or 9w. This guys amps are predicated on providing the best clean power possible. Some people swear by them. This is when I learned, a big amp isn't necessary for big sound.

I would disregard those amps as it seems to apply in this case with 7-9 W to tubes. That will start clipping and distorting with not much dynamic material unless you have a very sensitive speaker, close to 100 dB.

Amps do not change sound quality. The transducers that make up your speaker do (they, the speaker build including crossovers, the room and acoustics associated within it, and the source materiel as well). The woofer, mid, and tweeter transduce electrical signal into soundwave. Amps give a potential increase to that electrical impulse. An amp does not immediately make music louder... but if you choose an amp with more power, it will allow you to exceed the SPL allowed by your AVR amp stage.

Good.