Soundstage, stereo vs mono vs surround

T

TankTop5

Audioholic Samurai
Not trying to be too broad or vague but if you go to a live venue you aren’t listening in stereo or surround. You are listening mono with all the natural acoustics, sound stage reproduction and other things present. When we try to reproduce that we worry about speaker placement and many other techniques to reproduce a natural soundstage, more often than not it’s a poor reproduction. Are we cheating ourselves with all this electronic wizardry rather than using high quality speakers that can reproduce what was actually recorded? This is something that has always bothered me. Music isn’t stereo or surround, music is music and it does what it does wherever it is played and I just want to hear music. I apologize if my language doesn’t describe what I’m trying to say well, perhaps others can help me be more concise with what I’m trying to say.


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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Go mono and don't look back if that's your preference. I prefer multich stereo/surround done well over mono or 2ch stereo. I have been to a concert done in surround, tho. Depends on the room and your seat, too. YMMV.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Not trying to be too broad or vague but if you go to a live venue you aren’t listening in stereo or surround. You are listening mono with all the natural acoustics, sound stage reproduction and other things present. When we try to reproduce that we worry about speaker placement and many other techniques to reproduce a natural soundstage, more often than not it’s a poor reproduction. Are we cheating ourselves with all this electronic wizardry rather than using high quality speakers that can reproduce what was actually recorded? This is something that has always bothered me. Music isn’t stereo or surround, music is music and it does what it does wherever it is played and I just want to hear music. I apologize if my language doesn’t describe what I’m trying to say well, perhaps others can help me be more concise with what I’m trying to say.


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Unless you were listening to a single, unamplified instrument in an outdoor setting, I can assure you that your concert going experience was not mono-aural.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I agree with Shady, but would argue even that experience is still going to be stereophonic to the average, unimpaired human listener (unless you plug an ear, or use a bizarre stethoscope connected to a single horn that will render an equal, single and unified sound to each ear simultaneously). ;)

My understanding: our audio reproduction of the recorded event includes the engineering/mixing/production. Its not about reproducing what the performers sounded like "pre-microhone," for example, but is about reproducing as accurately as possible what was recorded, i.e. "post-microphone."

I think you are losing yourself in your own semantics:
Are we cheating ourselves with all this electronic wizardry rather than using high quality speakers that can reproduce what was actually recorded?
Good, accurate speakers will faithfully reproduce the recorded event, to the best of the initial transducer, the microphone, which is resposible for turning sound into an electrical signal. Yes this is simplistic in description, but avoiding an argument over semantics is my goal. ;)
Sound waves spread. They wrap around things, and bounce off things, and get absorbed by things. Though sound may emanate from a point (a bird chirping, or a bass drum being struck), you then must take into consideration how we hear... with one ear each on opposite sides of our head (usually), and how our brain processes that sound!
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
You cannot compare a live venue with recorded sound.

In a live venue, outdoors with no room interaction, one instrument might be heard in what you might be considered d mono. A group, with instrument spread across the front stage would be stereo, with imaging implied. Surround sound would not be an issue.

The same examples, only indoors, would now have room ambiance taken into consideration. If properly recorded, this ambiance could be captured and replayed in a surround mode in an attempt to recreate the original experience.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Unless you were listening to a single, unamplified instrument in an outdoor setting, I can assure you that your concert going experience was not mono-aural.
Not true. I have mixed quite a few live concerts with reinforcement. The PA is always mono otherwise you substantially reduce the forward gain from the mics and it's a mess. Now you record the concert in two channel stereo, and couple the channels as they go out to the amp stack. So the performance is reinforced in mono, but the recording is stereo.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I agree with those challenging the assertion that mono reflects reality. Just as I would anyone saying that 2.0, 2.x, 5.x, 7.x, or 11.x do.

Reality is an almost infinite number of potential drivers, oriented in three dimensions and interacting within complex enclosed, semi-enclosed, and open spaces, to impart direct and reflected sound waves on a non-linear binaural receiving system mediated by a powerful processor. The last two pieces of the audio chain (ears and brain) have been developed over several million years of evolutionary development to do things other than listen to a reproduced audio. So instead of sound being heard coming from 1-11 channels, our brain uses time, tone, and intensity to remap what it receives in a way that makes the most sense according to its evolutionary hardware, educational firmware, situational software, and non aural inputs. It does this automatically and with very little conscious effort.

I've framed this in artificial terms because to illustrate the complexity of the natural environment. Mono doesn't do this justice. Our brains can work with two or more sound sources without breaking a sweat. Surround sound? A laughably simple representation that comes closer (but is still magnitudes of order less complex,) than that which the human auditory system processes in the real world.

All that being the case, moden audio (when executed correctly) is capable of delivering the timing, tone, and intensity of sound to a higher degree of precision than the human hearing system is able to discern. That is a remarkable accomplishment and one worth preserving as we increase the number of channels and drivers/area used to deliver sound.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Samurai
I agree with those challenging the assertion that mono reflects reality. Just as I would anyone saying that 2.0, 2.x, 5.x, 7.x, or 11.x do.

Reality is an almost infinite number of potential drivers, oriented in three dimensions and interacting within complex enclosed, semi-enclosed, and open spaces, to impart direct and reflected sound waves on a non-linear binaural receiving system mediated by a powerful processor. The last two pieces of the audio chain (ears and brain) have been developed over several million years of evolutionary development to do things other than listen to a reproduced audio. So instead of sound being heard coming from 1-11 channels, our brain uses time, tone, and intensity to remap what it receives in a way that makes the most sense according to its evolutionary hardware, educational firmware, and situational software. It does this automatically and with very little conscious effort.

I've framed this in artificial terms because to illustrate the complexity of the natural environment. Mono doesn't do this justice. Our brains can work with two or more sound sources without breaking a sweat. Surround sound? A laughably simple representation that comes closer (but is still magnitudes of order less complex,) than that which the human auditory system processes in the real world.

All that being the case, moden audio (when executed correctly) is capable of delivering the timing, tone, and intensity of sound to a higher degree of precision than the human hearing system is able to discern. That is a remarkable accomplishment and one worth preserving as we increase the number of channels and drivers/area used to deliver sound.
Thanks for almost making my point, and then shooting it down mercilessly! I was more or lodging a complaint. As you said we are using more and more channels and speakers to recreate (in my words) music that is monaural at its source.


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GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I certainly didn't mean to shoot down your point... just present another view.

Mono suggests a sound emanating from a single point in space. Unless we listen to a single sound source (single instrument) in an anechoic chamber, we're not listening in mono. Sound is all around us.

Were able to focus on A sound but unable to completely shut others off. At a concert, the sound from individual mono speakers reaches us at different times and at different intensities... maybe even different tones as the amps and speakers are only calibrated to a degree. That's when our brain takes over. (Cue Homer Simpson)


Because mono doesn't exist in the natural world (sound from the same or different sources being all around us) our brains they try to make spatial sense of it. This is because our hearing system evolved to help us hunt or avoid being hunted, so azimuth, elevation, distance (all of the things we need to determine vector for that which cannot be seen) are the the priority processing objectives.

I would certainly agree with you that adding channels is unlikely to make a bigger impact on the quality of sound than it's tonal, temporal or intensity characteristics. I'd prefer really good mono over average-to-poor 11.x. Perhaps the sweet spot lies somewhere between...
 
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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Not trying to be too broad or vague but if you go to a live venue you aren’t listening in stereo or surround. You are listening mono with all the natural acoustics, sound stage reproduction and other things present. When we try to reproduce that we worry about speaker placement and many other techniques to reproduce a natural soundstage, more often than not it’s a poor reproduction. Are we cheating ourselves with all this electronic wizardry rather than using high quality speakers that can reproduce what was actually recorded? This is something that has always bothered me. Music isn’t stereo or surround, music is music and it does what it does wherever it is played and I just want to hear music. I apologize if my language doesn’t describe what I’m trying to say well, perhaps others can help me be more concise with what I’m trying to say.


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Rather than using the word 'Soundstage' as a descriptor or a metric, Floyd Toole recommends defining the sense of Listener Envelopment (LEV) and the Apparent Source Width (ASW) as being more meaningful when describing a subjective perception without objective measurements to back up one's claims.

Stereophonic signals are produced from monophonic channels. Guitars, vocals, all of that are mono! When combining all the recordings, the mixer is effectively shaping a band's sound - Terry Brown with Rush, would be a prime example. He literally chose when and where you would hear which sounds, and when sounds should be reinforced with double-tracking or any of the other tricks in a mixers bag.

However, it has been well known that there are limits to the amount of LEV or ASW one can convey through only two speakers - regardless of the reflective properties of the rooms in which we typically listen. Quadrophonic was the early attempt at finding such a solution - but it resulted in nothing but a doubling of speakers without modifying the amplitude or delay of the signal to create any sense of Envelopment or definition to the Apparent Source Width. It was more like having music shout at you than an immersive experience.

So, along came surround sound. With more powerful computer processing, we've been able to design and mix very convincing 3-D sound fields with a nearly unlimited number of speaker channels. But all of those channels are monophonic!

With more research and actual scientific studies performed (double blind), we've also proven that listener preference for one speaker over another becomes more difficult to discriminate when more channels are active.

With that said, the only possible answer to the incomplete question posed, is that mono, vs stereo vs surround is entirely dependent on what the source is.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Thanks for bringing up Floyd Toole. He rocks!

Your last point about source is one of the great truisms in audio!
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I certainly didn't mean to shoot down your point... just present another view.

Mono suggests a sound emanating from a single point in space. Unless we listen to a single sound source (single instrument) in an anechoic chamber, we're not listening in mono. Sound is all around us.

Were able to focus on A sound but unable to completely shut others off. At a concert, the sound from individual mono speakers reaches us at different times and at different intensities... maybe even different tones as the amps and speakers are only calibrated to a degree. That's when our brain takes over. (Cue Homer Simpson)


Because mono doesn't exist in the natural world (sound from the same or different sources being all around us) our brains they try to make spatial sense of it. This is because our hearing system evolved to help us hunt or avoid being hunted, so azimuth, elevation, distance (all of the things we need to determine vector for that which cannot be seen) are the the priority processing objectives.

I would certainly agree with you that adding channels is unlikely to make a bigger impact on the quality of sound than it's tonal, temporal or intensity characteristics. I'd prefer really good mono over average-to-poor 11.x. Perhaps the sweet spot lies somewhere between...
Based on your tag line - I think you would very much enjoy reading Floyd Toole's 'Sound Reproduction'.

He and his team created a measurement standard that more completely defines a loudspeaker's performance, on paper, and were then able to correlate those objective measurements to listener subjective preference with a near guarantee!
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Based on your tag line - I think you would very much enjoy reading Floyd Toole's 'Sound Reproduction'.

He and his team created a measurement standard that more completely defines a loudspeaker's performance, on paper, and were then able to correlate those objective measurements to listener subjective preference with a near guarantee!
I read some of Toole's online stuff... it's excellent.

Just googled Sound Reproduction... over 500 pages. Given the author, it would be a very information and concept dense read. I'll put that on my list... but won't pull the trigger until I know I'm about to have some serious free time on my hands.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Not trying to be too broad or vague but if you go to a live venue you aren’t listening in stereo or surround. You are listening mono with all the natural acoustics, sound stage reproduction and other things present. When we try to reproduce that we worry about speaker placement and many other techniques to reproduce a natural soundstage, more often than not it’s a poor reproduction. Are we cheating ourselves with all this electronic wizardry rather than using high quality speakers that can reproduce what was actually recorded? This is something that has always bothered me. Music isn’t stereo or surround, music is music and it does what it does wherever it is played and I just want to hear music. I apologize if my language doesn’t describe what I’m trying to say well, perhaps others can help me be more concise with what I’m trying to say.
A very good question. As you can see by the number of responses, some of them lengthy, that answers vary all over the place.

Let’s try to define the terms “soundstage” and while we’re at it, “imaging”. Understand that these are both illusions that stereo and multichannel sound reproduction systems try to create for listeners. I tried looking them up online.

Soundstage and imaging are generally used to define the ability of speakers to create the illusion of a realistic sounding three-dimensional space and position for individual sounds within that space. Soundstage refers to the apparent width, depth and height of the recorded sound played by the speakers. This requires at least two speakers and a stereo a signal. Obviously, speaker placement relative to the listener has an effect. So does the quality, or lack of it, in the original recording.

The term “imaging” is a bit more difficult. According to J. Gordon Holt's audio glossary, "imaging is a sound system's ability to float stable and specific phantom images, reproducing the original sizes and locations of the instruments across the recording’s original soundstage." Holt's description of soundstaging further elaborates, "The accuracy with which a sound system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it."

I find it easier to understand these two definitions if I apply imaging to the ability of a single loudspeaker to create the illusion of floating stable and specific phantom images, and soundstage to at least two loudspeakers playing music recorded at least in stereo. Not everyone agrees with this, but I find it helps me to talk about it.

When I compare speakers for sound quality, I listen to a single speaker first. It's fairly easy to judge or measure things like how loud it gets when driven by 1 watt, how much it distorts sound when driven loud, how well it reproduces the audio range without coloring or altering the sound, how widely and evenly it disperses sound. But how do you judge imaging in a single speaker? I use a recording of one or several unamplified instruments or voices that I already know well. I try to visualize the musicians. Are they little musicians packed inside the speaker cabinet, or do they emerge from the box into the room? I listen at low volume, and gradually increase the volume, as I walk about the room, listening while directly in front and off to the sides. Some speakers never allow the musicians to step outside the box, others can create this image but only at higher volumes. The best speakers create the illusion of phantom images at lower and higher volumes.

Then I try listening to two speakers in stereo. Not surprisingly, the best stereo soundstages come from speakers that are good at imaging when you listen to them as a single speaker.

If you make a list of the top 10 features of audio gear that most contribute to good imaging and soundstage, the first 8 or 9 would be loudspeakers. And those other 1 or 2 places on the list would be all the other electronics.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
If you make a list of the top 10 features of audio gear that most contribute to good imaging and soundstage, the first 8 or 9 would be loudspeakers. And those other 1 or 2 places on the list would be all the other electronics.
I have heard pretty good imaging from a wide range of speakers of differing quality. While speakers qualities can enhance things like the width and envelopment of a soundstage, I am leaning more towards the recordings having more to do with imaging than anything else. I don't think the speakers themselves, so long as they are optimally placed and set up, have that much impact on the imaging.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I have heard pretty good imaging from a wide range of speakers of differing quality. While speakers qualities can enhance things like the width and envelopment of a soundstage, I am leaning more towards the recordings having more to do with imaging than anything else.
I can easily agree with what you first say. Some speakers, regardless of overall quality or price, image well. And others poorly.

Speakers are items we can choose and buy. I can try and describe imaging, but I don't do very well at nailing down just what feature(s) of a speaker make it good at imaging. But I am confident they exist. My first guess is a wide dispersion of sound across the mid range. But that's only a guess.

We have no control over recordings, other than choosing to buy it or not.
I don't think the speakers themselves, so long as they are optimally placed and set up, have that much impact on the imaging.
I disagree with you on that. But it's hard to discuss because I can't say just what makes a speaker good or bad at imaging.

And then there's the issue of room boundaries and placement. You've heard BMR speakers, among the best imaging speakers I know. Try and find a room or a location in a room that stomps out their impressive imaging abilities. I don't know what that would be.

And the opposite case too. Imagine a speaker that's the world's worst at imaging – the opposite of BMRs. Find a room and placement that suddenly allows the musicians to bust out of the box. Again, I don't know what that would be, or if it's even possible.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I can easily agree with what you first say. Some speakers, regardless of overall quality or price, image well. And others poorly.

Speakers are items we can choose and buy. I can try and describe imaging, but I don't do very well at nailing down just what feature(s) of a speaker make it good at imaging. But I am confident they exist. My first guess is a wide dispersion of sound across the mid range. But that's only a guess.

We have no control over recordings, other than choosing to buy it or not.
I disagree with you on that. But it's hard to discuss because I can't say just what makes a speaker good or bad at imaging.

And then there's the issue of room boundaries and placement. You've heard BMR speakers, among the best imaging speakers I know. Try and find a room or a location in a room that stomps out their impressive imaging abilities. I don't know what that would be.

And the opposite case too. Imagine a speaker that's the world's worst at imaging – the opposite of BMRs. Find a room and placement that suddenly allows the musicians to bust out of the box. Again, I don't know what that would be, or if it's even possible.
Imaging is inevitably going to have a lot to do with how human hearing localizes sound, using principles such as head related transfer functions, interaural time differences, and interaural level differences. The thing is, so long as a stereo pair of speakers have the proper setup with respect to the listener, so that the distance from each speaker is the same from the listener, and the acoustic conditions are the same for each speaker, how is any quality of the speaker going to change how human hearing detects spatial cues from a stereo pair of speakers? One thing that I think does affect soundstage is the width of the dispersion pattern of the speakers, which will affect imaging. Some people argue that wide dispersion speakers can not image as precisely as narrow dispersion speakers anyway. I have done multiple A/B tests of wide dispersion speakers against narrow dispersion speakers, and for my money they both image really well. I am saying that I think that too often many people will attribute qualities to the speakers which are actually qualities of the recording, and I say that as a huge speaker nut.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Imaging is inevitably going to have a lot to do with how human hearing localizes sound, using principles such as head related transfer functions, interaural time differences, and interaural level differences. The thing is, so long as a stereo pair of speakers have the proper setup with respect to the listener, so that the distance from each speaker is the same from the listener, and the acoustic conditions are the same for each speaker, how is any quality of the speaker going to change how human hearing detects spatial cues from a stereo pair of speakers?
Head related transfer functions, interaural time and level differences, etc., are all physical phenomena that take place as sound travels from speakers to ears. Lots more occurs between the ears in the four pounds (for our Canadian friends, 1.8 kg) of wet noodles that fills our skulls. We know much less about how such things are processed. But we can be certain that many (most?) humans can detect these phantom spatial illusions we refer to as imaging and soundstage. Those who are entertained by it spend money on audio gear, and spend time yakking about it on the interwebs ;).
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Samurai
A very good question. As you can see by the number of responses, some of them lengthy, that answers vary all over the place.

Let’s try to define the terms “soundstage” and while we’re at it, “imaging”. Understand that these are both illusions that stereo and multichannel sound reproduction systems try to create for listeners. I tried looking them up online.

Soundstage and imaging are generally used to define the ability of speakers to create the illusion of a realistic sounding three-dimensional space and position for individual sounds within that space. Soundstage refers to the apparent width, depth and height of the recorded sound played by the speakers. This requires at least two speakers and a stereo a signal. Obviously, speaker placement relative to the listener has an effect. So does the quality, or lack of it, in the original recording.

The term “imaging” is a bit more difficult. According to J. Gordon Holt's audio glossary, "imaging is a sound system's ability to float stable and specific phantom images, reproducing the original sizes and locations of the instruments across the recording’s original soundstage." Holt's description of soundstaging further elaborates, "The accuracy with which a sound system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it."

I find it easier to understand these two definitions if I apply imaging to the ability of a single loudspeaker to create the illusion of floating stable and specific phantom images, and soundstage to at least two loudspeakers playing music recorded at least in stereo. Not everyone agrees with this, but I find it helps me to talk about it.

When I compare speakers for sound quality, I listen to a single speaker first. It's fairly easy to judge or measure things like how loud it gets when driven by 1 watt, how much it distorts sound when driven loud, how well it reproduces the audio range without coloring or altering the sound, how widely and evenly it disperses sound. But how do you judge imaging in a single speaker? I use a recording of one or several unamplified instruments or voices that I already know well. I try to visualize the musicians. Are they little musicians packed inside the speaker cabinet, or do they emerge from the box into the room? I listen at low volume, and gradually increase the volume, as I walk about the room, listening while directly in front and off to the sides. Some speakers never allow the musicians to step outside the box, others can create this image but only at higher volumes. The best speakers create the illusion of phantom images at lower and higher volumes.

Then I try listening to two speakers in stereo. Not surprisingly, the best stereo soundstages come from speakers that are good at imaging when you listen to them as a single speaker.

If you make a list of the top 10 features of audio gear that most contribute to good imaging and soundstage, the first 8 or 9 would be loudspeakers. And those other 1 or 2 places on the list would be all the other electronics.
Thanks to everyone who responded, I read all of your posts. Swerd, your answer most closely touched on my reason for asking the question. Many years ago I went into a hi fi store and the owner had me listen to some speakers. He had some Maggie’s that he’d put Linaeum tweeters onto. His store had stuff everywhere, concrete floors, one glass wall and another old brick, by no means acoustically treated. He put on some music and had me walk around the room. The speakers were imaging wonderfully and I couldn’t audibly point out the source easily. He then showed me that he was messing with me and only one speaker was plugged in. I’ve often wondered if he was using some mild suggestion to make me think what I was hearing was better than I thought, at the same time ever since then I’ve been bothered by every other speaker demo where I’m told to sit in this one spot for the speakers to sound the best and image correctly. I just think we can do it better, I’m just unsure how and how to articulate it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Head related transfer functions, interaural time and level differences, etc., are all physical phenomena that take place as sound travels from speakers to ears. Lots more occurs between the ears in the four pounds (for our Canadian friends, 1.8 kg) of wet noodles that fills our skulls. We know much less about how such things are processed. But we can be certain that many (most?) humans can detect these phantom spatial illusions we refer to as imaging and soundstage. Those who are entertained by it spend money on audio gear, and spend time yakking about it on the interwebs ;).
Consider it is that grey crap between the ears that makes people think that power cables enhance the soundstage and give it depth...
 
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