Audio terms BS and not BS

[TankTop5]

Please list primarily common terms and somewhat not so common terms in the Hi Fi and AV world so that beginners like myself and others don’t get ensnared by marketing BS and recognize actual quality equipment when we see it. I’ll start with a term but lacking it’s meaning.


High order crossover:


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[TLS Guy]

Please list primarily common terms and somewhat not so common terms in the Hi Fi and AV world so that beginners like myself and others don’t get ensnared by marketing BS and recognize actual quality equipment when we see it. I’ll start with a term but lacking it’s meaning.


High order crossover:


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This is an inappropriate post and exemplifies extreme laziness. This is something you can easily research yourself, and should. We do not mind helping people with problems and difficulties. However creating for you a personal dictionary of technical terms is not a good use of our time.

Now go and research this in your own. You are welcome to come back and explain what you have learned. We can then critique your home work. This is how education works. Spoon feeding never works. That will actually make you lazier and less educated than you are now. I encourage members not to answer your question until you can show you have put serious effort into answering it from your own Internet research.

Lastly the term you selected is not BS. Now please go and find out what it means.

 

[shadyJ]

This is an inappropriate post and exemplifies extreme laziness. This is something you can easily research yourself, and should. We do not mind helping people with problems and difficulties. However creating for you a personal dictionary of technical terms is not a good use of our time.

Now go and research this in your own. You are welcome to come back and explain what you have learned. We can then critique your home work. This is how education works. Spoon feeding never works. That will actually make you lazier and less educated than you are now. I encourage members not to answer your question until you can show you have put serious effort into answering it from your own Internet research.

Lastly the term you selected is not BS. Now please go and find out what it means.

I don't think it's a bad idea to make a list of words that serve as red flags for snake oil that the uninitiated can keep a look out for, although I would agree that is not a substitute for real knowledge. Here is a word that bugs me to no end: 'musical.' Anytime audio gear is described as 'musical,' I get homicidally annoyed. Any sound system that can reproduce recordings of music, even if only very crudely, is, by definition, 'musical'.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'd add one: Oxygen Free cables
"The high-end speaker wire industry markets oxygen-free copper as having enhanced conductivity or other electrical properties that are supposedly advantageous to audio signal transmission. In fact, conductivity specifications for common C11000 (ETP) and higher-cost C10200 Oxygen-Free (OF) coppers are identical;[12] and even the much more expensive C10100 has only a one percent higher conductivity—insignificant in audio applications.[12] "
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper

 

[GrimSurfer]

"Audiophile grade" anything.

I once read this phrase used by a writer to describe the paper in a manufacturer's brochure.

My response to him was blocked. I guess it hurt his feelings.

 

[markw]

Here's a push in the right direction: PRAT.

Google it.

 

[markw]

I don't think it's a bad idea to make a list of words that serve as red flags for snake oil that the uninitiated can keep a look out for, altoough I would agree that is not a substitute for real knowledge. Here is a word that bugs me to no end: 'musical.' Anytime audio gear is described as 'musical,' I get homicidally annoyed. Any sound system that can reproduce recordings of music, even if only very crudely, is, by definition, 'musical'.

Isn't that just a synonym for "euphonic"?

 

[TankTop5]

This is an inappropriate post and exemplifies extreme laziness. This is something you can easily research yourself, and should. We do not mind helping people with problems and difficulties. However creating for you a personal dictionary of technical terms is not a good use of our time.

Now go and research this in your own. You are welcome to come back and explain what you have learned. We can then critique your home work. This is how education works. Spoon feeding never works. That will actually make you lazier and less educated than you are now. I encourage members not to answer your question until you can show you have put serious effort into answering it from your own Internet research.

Lastly the term you selected is not BS. Now please go and find out what it means.

I’m actually not as dumb as you would surmise but if being a lord helmet for dicks sake makes you feel superior then by all means go ahead! I don’t have the time nor inclination to research every term or bs marketing nuanced poetic justiced literary jargon to weed between reality and imagined possibility of what an AVR or speaker may be able to produce in reality and I was simply asking for key words to help a novice sort between the two. Luckily I have dickheads like yourself who tell me I should devote the better part of my life and sanity to figure it out for myself so obviously there is no point in asking other more versed than myself for assistance. My hat is off to you kind sir for your obvious vastly greater knowledge than myself and please forgive me for asking an obvious simple ten question in your mighty and noble presence!!! Please forgive me being a peasant in your noble presence.


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[TankTop5]

Obviously I’ve had more than a couple to drink but what a . D . I . C . K.!


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[TankTop5]

Lastly the term you selected is not BS. Now please go and find out what it means.

No poop... luckily I have people like you to point out the obvious. I tried to start off with a softball, unfortunately it went over your head. I’ll try to dumb down my questions for you in the future.


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[TankTop5]

I apologize to everyone else if I’ve come across as crass. I’m trying to learn and I don’t appreciate being talked down to blatantly and publicly, nobody deserves this treatment. I believe my previous posts have been humble and inquisitive and to have someone act blatantly disrespectful is undeserved and shows that persons shortcomings. I apologize to any OTHERS that I have insulted.


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[markw]

Please don't take my initial response as snippy. It's just that so many better definitions than my feeble mind can elucidate can be found at other places ..

 

[3db]

I'd add one: Oxygen Free cables
"The high-end speaker wire industry markets oxygen-free copper as having enhanced conductivity or other electrical properties that are supposedly advantageous to audio signal transmission. In fact, conductivity specifications for common C11000 (ETP) and higher-cost C10200 Oxygen-Free (OF) coppers are identical;[12] and even the much more expensive C10100 has only a one percent higher conductivity—insignificant in audio applications.[12] "
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper

Oxygen free is a real thing. Don't kid yourself. Many audiophile who have experienced oxygen free suffer from permanent memory loss on all things non audio, incredibly accurate audio memory, increased sensitivity in their hearing that is much more resolving than any test instruement currently out there in the audio field... a whole host of symptoms to numerous to list..

 

[GrimSurfer]

Digital Amplifier.

Such things exist to boost digital signals for long distance transmission, but the term is misapplied to Class D audio amplifiers. These amplifiers use different methods to increase gain to an analog signal.

The letter D was used because it was the next available letter (Class A, B, C had been previously used... though Class C amps aren't used in audio, but in RF applications).

In reference to the OP's original question, here's a reasonable place to start wrt common terms:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier_figures_of_merit

The key to success is not being able to recite these terms, but to know what they mean, why the matter, how they apply, and how they're twisted or misapplied. That takes a fair amount of reading (and re-reading).

- Stick to sites, pages, boards and groups that have a high level of technical discussion. Stay away from sources where these are mixed with marketing, advertising, sales, virtue signalling, or snobbery.

- Read academic literature. There is lots freely available on line, from Masters' theses to professional journals. Don't be put off the equations or Greek (geek?) letters. Try to absorb as much as you can. If really struggling, read the intro/synopsis and the summary/conclusion. These are normally written in plain language.

- Follow an investigative path. Once you understand the general term "harmonic distortion", read about how harmonics work, how they are perceived by the human ear/brain, etc., look at how harmonic distortion is measured, examine how distortion figures are used by manufacturers in their product literature. Reflect on the differences between theory, measurement, and common use.

- Draw on multiple sources. Don't read one article, but many. Don't exclusively use one "go to" site.

 

[Swerd]

I'd add one: Oxygen Free cables
"The high-end speaker wire industry markets oxygen-free copper as having enhanced conductivity or other electrical properties that are supposedly advantageous to audio signal transmission. In fact, conductivity specifications for common C11000 (ETP) and higher-cost C10200 Oxygen-Free (OF) coppers are identical;[12] and even the much more expensive C10100 has only a one percent higher conductivity—insignificant in audio applications.[12] "
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper

I often see people who seem to believe oxygen-free copper oxidizes less than common copper. They, of course, are wrong. I used to try and correct such comments, but I gave up on it long ago. If I had a nickle for each of those posts, I'd be wealthy by now. I'm glad to see that someone does understand .

 

[Swerd]

I apologize to everyone else if I’ve come across as crass. I’m trying to learn and I don’t appreciate being talked down to blatantly and publicly, nobody deserves this treatment. I believe my previous posts have been humble and inquisitive and to have someone act blatantly disrespectful is undeserved and shows that persons shortcomings. I apologize to any OTHERS that I have insulted.

That's one apology for 3 quite rude comments. That leaves you with a deficit of two. Further apologies are not required, but your readiness to take offense has been noted by readers here.

Do not confuse real research with a Google search. One is hard – the other is simple. If you really don't know if a term is genuine or BS, a quick Google search will provide an answer. Search "high order crossover" and the first hit gives you a clear answer. Even if you don't read the entire page, you can guess that the term isn't BS. However, that does not prevent some marketer or reviewer bent on slinging BS from using this term incorrectly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The forum has been kind of slow lately. Let's start something.

What do you say @Phase 2 ?

Audio Myths:

1. Words describing amps and speakers that sound like foods and wines (sweet, chocolatey).

2. Amps that produce faster bass or sweeter, more chocolatey, airy sounds and bigger soundstage.

3. External Amps and Integrated Amps absolutely sound better than amps inside AVRs.

4. Separates absolutely sound better than AVRs.

5. All Amps, Preamps, and DACs sound night-and-day different

6. Amps inside AVRs absolutely cannot power speakers with impedance that go down to 4 ohms.

7. You need amps that can output a certain amount of power (like over 100 Watts) Continuously for hours for ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN SIMULTANEOUSLY.

8. You need amps with over 100 watts "RMS".

9. You want the biggest subwoofer that can go down to 10Hz.


What's not audio myths to me:

1. Amps, preamps, wires, interconnects, CD and media players, and DACs sound very similar in DIRECT/Bypass/Through Modes - with some exceptions (there's always exceptions to everything).

2. Amps inside AVRs are just amps, and they sound extremely similar to integrated amps or external amps in Direct/Through mode.

3. When it comes to amp power, don't worry about ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN or Continuous power. That's just for stress-testing the amps. In the real world, 2Ch Driven spec and Dynamic Power is more important.

4. There is no such thing as RMS POWER. There is only AVERAGE POWER, not RMS.

5. AVR amps can certainly handle 4 ohms. For example, the Yamaha RX-V683 (which is $350 on Amazon) has a Dynamic Power output of 235W into 2 ohms. Now that's not saying it can output this into 2 ohms for a long extended time (continuously),but in the real music world, we won't encounter that for everyday music listening and movie watching.

6. There is a reason AVRs outsell separates (external amps, etc.) about 10 to 1. They work just fine for millions of people.

7. Separates are great too. It's a hobby. You can own whatever you want - integrated amps, Amps, Preamps, Pre-pro, AVR.

8. DON'T Listen TOO LOUD. This will only hurt your hearing, speakers, and amps. Then you won't be able to ENJOY ANYTHING.

9. We can't even hear most sounds below 25Hz. You don't need the biggest subwoofer. If your subwoofer sounds great for 30Hz-80Hz, that's just fine.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I often see people who seem to believe oxygen-free copper oxidizes less than common copper. They, of course, are wrong. I used to try and correct such comments, but I gave up on it long ago. If I had a nickle for each of those posts, I'd be wealthy by now. I'm glad to see that someone does understand .

LOL. I seen that too. It's usually followed up there by a statement boasting about the crystalline structure of the metal (which can matter in issues of durability, ductility, flexibility for industrial purposes, but has no practical effect on the transmission of audio signals).

 

[GrimSurfer]

The forum has been kind of slow lately. Let's start something.

What do you say @Phase 2 ?

Audio Myths:

1. Words describing amps and speakers that sound like foods and wines (sweet, chocolatey).

2. Amps that produce faster bass or sweeter, more chocolatey, airy sounds and bigger soundstage.

3. External Amps and Integrated Amps absolutely sound better than amps inside AVRs.

4. Separates absolutely sound better than AVRs.

5. All Amps, Preamps, and DACs sound night-and-day different

6. Amps inside AVRs absolutely cannot power speakers with impedance that go down to 4 ohms.

7. You need amps that can output a certain amount of power (like over 100 Watts) Continuously for hours for ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN SIMULTANEOUSLY.

8. You need amps with over 100 watts "RMS".

9. You want the biggest subwoofer that can go down to 10Hz.


What's not audio myths to me:

1. Amps, preamps, wires, interconnects, CD and media players, and DACs sound very similar in DIRECT/Bypass/Through Modes - with some exceptions (there's always exceptions to everything).

2. Amps inside AVRs are just amps, and they sound extremely similar to integrated amps or external amps in Direct/Through mode.

3. When it comes to amp power, don't worry about ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN or Continuous power. That's just for stress-testing the amps. In the real world, 2Ch Driven spec and Dynamic Power is more important.

4. There is no such thing as RMS POWER. There is only AVERAGE POWER, not RMS.

5. AVR amps can certainly handle 4 ohms. For example, the Yamaha RX-V683 (which is $350 on Amazon) has a Dynamic Power output of 235W into 2 ohms. Now that's not saying it can output this into 2 ohms for a long extended time (continuously),but in the real music world, we won't encounter that for everyday music listening and movie watching.

6. There is a reason AVRs outsell separates (external amps, etc.) about 10 to 1. They work just fine for millions of people.

7. Separates are great too. It's a hobby. You can own whatever you want - integrated amps, Amps, Preamps, Pre-pro, AVR.

8. DON'T Listen TOO LOUD. This will only hurt your hearing, speakers, and amps. Then you won't be able to ENJOY ANYTHING.

9. We can't even hear most sounds below 25Hz. You don't need the biggest subwoofer. If your subwoofer sounds great for 30Hz-80Hz, that's just fine.

I don't wish to be rude, but you're mixing truths, half-truths, and incomplete expressions here. This is the sort of thing that I sometimes encounter in people who sell or own a particular line (hyper expensive stuff, consumer grade stuff). It also reflects a doctrine, or system of thought, than doesn't survive deconstruction and analysis.

There are generally few absolutes that come into play at the component level... but there are nuanced expressions that do apply.

An example of this is that all components sound the same (which is what you're trying to say, without saying it, when you use the term "extremely similar"). Well, it depends on the volume level, speaker load, ambient temperature, playing time, RF environment etc. (And before you roll your eyes at things like ambient temperature (which sound absurd in a society in which we can usually keep our living spaces at a constant temperature of between 68-72F),reflect on how many people put components in enclosed spaces (like cabinets) where temperatures often rise considerably.)

You appear to understand such concepts when you talk about amps capable of driving 2 ohm loads "but not for long". Why do you think that is? Could it be because the amp was never designed for CONTINUOUS output with this load? And if it wasn't, might that be the reason why it wasn't rated using the FTC method?

And before you jump on the term continuous by saying that only pure tones are countinuous, not music, let me remind you that the IHF method used as the basis for a great many "music power" ratings measures output for 1/50th of a second. Those who listen to music know that notes last much longer than this.

Another example is your statement "There is a reason AVRs outsell separates (external amps, etc.) about 10 to 1. They work just fine for millions of people."

These are actually two statements. I would offer that one of the big reasons AVRs outsell separates (AV controllers + amps) is price. I know this because people in the real world have budgets which, in today's economy, range from very tight (the many) to very loose (the few). So I think stands to reason that lower cost components would sell better on a volume basis.

Another factor is simplicity. Society has embraced operating simplicity. We used to have watches, phones, calculators, and cameras. These have been replaced, to a large degree, by the smart phone. The same thing has happen with banking (bank card with a tap feature has replaced cash, the chequebook and, in some cases, the credit card). Consumer preferences for simplicity likely play a role in the "one box" solution.

"Working just fine" is different than matching or beating expectations, desires, or better quality components. "Fine" is something we settle for, either because we don't know better or can't afford better. There's nothing the matter with that (my Levi's are fine),but it's not a term that in any way confers "good"... simply "good enough" given life's other needs.

As we both know, there are some excellent bargains to be had... gear that punches above its price point in terms of measured performance. These are rare and, perhaps, the things we should be discussing/highlighting instead of a Class of products (AVRs, separates, etc) that range from unsuitable to overkill.

Albert Einstein said (paraphrasing here) that it's good to keep things simple, but not too simple. Simple concepts are pathways to learning more complex things. They don't often work well when applied as exclusive rules... not without qualification or further explanation anyway.

 

[Bucknekked]

The forum has been kind of slow lately. Let's start something.

What do you say @Phase 2 ?

Audio Myths:

1. Words describing amps and speakers that sound like foods and wines (sweet, chocolatey).

2. Amps that produce faster bass or sweeter, more chocolatey, airy sounds and bigger soundstage.

3. External Amps and Integrated Amps absolutely sound better than amps inside AVRs.

4. Separates absolutely sound better than AVRs.

5. All Amps, Preamps, and DACs sound night-and-day different

6. Amps inside AVRs absolutely cannot power speakers with impedance that go down to 4 ohms.

7. You need amps that can output a certain amount of power (like over 100 Watts) Continuously for hours for ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN SIMULTANEOUSLY.

8. You need amps with over 100 watts "RMS".

9. You want the biggest subwoofer that can go down to 10Hz.


What's not audio myths to me:

1. Amps, preamps, wires, interconnects, CD and media players, and DACs sound very similar in DIRECT/Bypass/Through Modes - with some exceptions (there's always exceptions to everything).

2. Amps inside AVRs are just amps, and they sound extremely similar to integrated amps or external amps in Direct/Through mode.

3. When it comes to amp power, don't worry about ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN or Continuous power. That's just for stress-testing the amps. In the real world, 2Ch Driven spec and Dynamic Power is more important.

4. There is no such thing as RMS POWER. There is only AVERAGE POWER, not RMS.

5. AVR amps can certainly handle 4 ohms. For example, the Yamaha RX-V683 (which is $350 on Amazon) has a Dynamic Power output of 235W into 2 ohms. Now that's not saying it can output this into 2 ohms for a long extended time (continuously),but in the real music world, we won't encounter that for everyday music listening and movie watching.

6. There is a reason AVRs outsell separates (external amps, etc.) about 10 to 1. They work just fine for millions of people.

7. Separates are great too. It's a hobby. You can own whatever you want - integrated amps, Amps, Preamps, Pre-pro, AVR.

8. DON'T Listen TOO LOUD. This will only hurt your hearing, speakers, and amps. Then you won't be able to ENJOY ANYTHING.

9. We can't even hear most sounds below 25Hz. You don't need the biggest subwoofer. If your subwoofer sounds great for 30Hz-80Hz, that's just fine.

I liked your effort here. Even if others took umbrage. I thought it was great. You are correct, the forum has been pretty slow lately. Stir something up.